Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?

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Originally Posted by Trinity

The most important thing for a christian is about what should be our at***ude when we consider a teaching a heresy. A heresy is not something that is totally false but something that is twisted or embellished.

When Jesus had met a Samaritan woman they discussed on where to worship God. The best site. On a mountain or at the temple. For the Jews, Samaritans were heretics because they worshiped God like the Fathers (patriarchs), on a mountain. However, the Jews followed the ins***ution founded by Solomon. At the temple.

Both sides were correct according to the sacred texts they were referring too. Anyway, Jesus came with a third way. You should worship God in spirit and within the truth.

Even heretics can believe truthful things. This is why some atheists are more wise and have more wisdom than many christians. I met some men and also some women who were not christians, and they were much better men and women, than many christians that I met (more mature). There is some christians that have not this problem with heresies but they certainly have a problem with their fanatical at***ude. And this is very ugly, this is in a total discordance with the character of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.

James 2:13
For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.

Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

Trinity

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I would have to agree with sayso on the point about the teachings of the Emergent Church. I have researched this subject and read their books and discussed issues with them on another Apologetics Forum and because of their teachings I was compelled to write an 18 page article for my website (which I'm not sure I can post here but it can be found in the CP under my profile) because of what I was discovering. In fact it became the introductory article in a series that I wrote called "The Unveiling of the Apostasy?", which took a year to research and write, concerning the influences that this group and others are having on the Church today.

You might object to the use of the term 'heresy', and many people do, but the Bible itself does not equivocate on the subject of exposing these false teachings, and neither did the Early Church Fathers, like Irenaeus, when the Gnostic heresies tried to overtake the Church-when they arose in the Church. Sometimes harsh words are used in condemning them, even by Jesus Christ, but we are warned that false prophets would come and infiltrate the Church and we in turn are told to warn others about the dangers of being led astray by false teachings-even within the Church.

Why do I consider the 'Emergents' that you have listed as perpetuating false teachings. All you have to do is compare their teachings with Scripture. For instance they preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" in which we are to focus on how we conduct ourselves and how we must conquer the ills of society to establish this 'Kingdom'. The 'gospel of the kingdom' was preached when Jesus was here and it was rejected. Had it been accepted we would not be having this discussion.

The "gospel of Jesus Christ" is the gospel we preach since Jesus went to the Cross. It is most most clearly expressed in I Cor. 15:1-6:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;

8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

That is the gospel in all it's simplicity: "Christ crucified, dead, and risen." This is what Romans 10:9-10 speak of as the way of righteousness and salvation.

Anything else preached is another gospel as has been pointed out in scriptures already posted on this thread. To not warn of heresies in the days approaching the return of Christ when Paul said:"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, .." 2 Thess 2:3, would be utterly tragic and irresponsible on the part of the church and the individual Christian today.

Many of these new movements have incorporated into worship the Monastic practices of the medieval Church which was itself already deteriorating into apostasy. Practices such as breath prayer, centering prayer, lectio divina, labyrinth journeys, icons, and all kinds of meditative techniques whose source is eastern mysticism, not Christ.

One needs to be discerning, and yes, there are heretical teachings and practices being introduced (and always have been since the Apostles dealt with Judaizers and early forms of Gnosticism) into the Church whether we want to acknowledge it or not. Yes, the heretics will include some truths mixed in with the overall false message. Remeber the demons know the truth of who God is "and they shudder' the Bible says. So they could teach you that God exists, and Jesus exists, but they are not going to tell you how you can be saved. They might tell you how to live a life that looks "Christian" and even tell you to look at Jesus as a great "way shower ' or teacher, or miracle worker. BUT, they will not tell you what Paul told us in the verses above - the message of the 'saving gospel'

It is not unloving to lead someone out of darkness and into the arms of the Savior. If they don't know they are following false teachings they can't be helped unless they see the contrasting light of The "Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Dave

It is not unloving to lead someone out of darkness and into the arms of the Savior. If they don't know they are following false teachings they can't be helped unless they see the contrasting light of The "Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Dave

Thank you Dave.

Hello Dave,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave52_47

You might object to the use of the term 'heresy', and many people do,...

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I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word. :)

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Dave,



I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word. :)

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

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well said Trinity...
(i would "rep" you...but must spread it around...:) )
thank you....

something i wrote recently when really struggling with...truth...and how it "becomes clouded" by our sometimes good intentions....

In defending the truth, we so often pursue means that become distortions. We become so determined that we lose our own way. We begin to rationalize that our "way" to defend the truth is okay, for we are defending the truth! Even when this "way" , dissolves into deceit, anger, impatience, cowardice, meanness, harshness, out of control, even hatred, even lying.

It is at this point, we have lost sight of the truth we are so eager to defend. And our defense of the truth, fails miserably. For instead we point others far away from the truth, making it impossible for them to see even a glimpse of it, behind the darkness of smoke and shadows we have created.

One thing about the truth, we forget. It is a simple thing and yet profound. Truth stands alone.
It shines brightly. It speaks to the heart. It needs not a "defense". Instead, it is reflected better when we let it shine through us, by our actions, our life. And when we stop trying by ill means to so defend it, we realize that we ourselves have but a glimpse of it. And would make better use of our time
by trying to see more of it ourselves. To continue ever to journey in the path of it...learning as we go.
That at last at some far off distance we shall begin to behold the essence and no longer need the reflections.

with love,
soms

okay...here are a list of verses..from a friend (euty) .that also got my brain originally churning with questions....and i really appreciate anyone willing to discuss them with me...


"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).



1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved - Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth - Will His desire come to p***, or is it a WEAK WISH?
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is….testified in due time - Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all - Will He succeed, or FAIL?
5. Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will - Can our will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world - Why don't we BELIEVE it?
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself - To burn or to love?
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created - Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live - The same ALL?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live - Again, the same ALL?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times - Are YOU tired of seeing the word, ALL?
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20, 21-Res***ution of all - How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people - Is there joy in Satan's "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11, 12-All will know God - How long will you tarry, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come - Have we judged Him before the coming age?
20. ***us 2:11-Grace has appeared to all - Experientially or Prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation? After those who have the firstfruits of the spirit?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God - There's that word "ALL" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God - What for?
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy - Is eternal "hell" merciful?
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen - Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all - All?
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him - ALL into Him?
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things - does this include "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God - Including Satan? All creation!
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all - What does that mean?
31. Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live - How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth - How will the "righteous" Judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved so as by fire - How can FIRE save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire - Including you?
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world - Will fire save?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for ALL - Did He die in vain?
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father - What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things - Does "things" include people? YES.
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him - How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things - (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things".
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all - Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost - How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed - In the "lake of fire" which is the "second" death. No more dying (Rev 21:4, Isa. 25:8 )?
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure - Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed - Here comes that word "all" again.
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth - What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3, 4-Enemies will submit to God - Can any stay rebellious?
49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, and then says return - How can one return from "destruction"? Humbled, bruised and ashamed?
50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations - All nations?
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive - Kills to bring life?
52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts - "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler"?
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps - What about "free will"?
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands - So much for "free will."
55. La 3:31, 32-God will not cast off forever - Why does He cast off in the first place?
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house - ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him - ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified - Including the wicked ones?
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God - Are you catching on?
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - That sounds wondrous.
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things - I wish we would BELIEVE that.
62. Isa 19:14, 15-Egypt & ***yria will be restored - Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate - Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him - Nothing? No, nothing!
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him - For what purpose?
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him - Praise His name!
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all - Including your worst enemies.
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works - Let's start believing that.
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall - Who hasn't sinned?
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him - For "eternal torment"?
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people - And you are invited.
72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire.- This came from the carnal mind, NOT SPIRITUAL.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws (drag) them. - You can't "choose" to follow Him, SELF-DETERMINATION.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself - Amen!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him - If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in all, are you upset?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

okay...here are a list of verses..from a friend (euty) .that also got my brain originally churning with questions....and I really appreciate anyone willing to discuss them with me...

1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved - Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth - Will His desire come to p***, or is it a WEAK WISH?
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is….testified in due time - Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all - Will He succeed, or FAIL?
5. Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will - Can our will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world - Why don't we BELIEVE it?
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself - To burn or to love?
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created - Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live - The same ALL?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live - Again, the same ALL?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times - Are YOU tired of seeing the word, ALL?
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20, 21-Res***ution of all - How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people - Is there joy in Satan's "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11, 12-All will know God - How long will you tarry, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come - Have we judged Him before the coming age?
20. ***us 2:11-Grace has appeared to all - Experientially or Prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation? After those who have the firstfruits of the spirit?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God - There's that word "ALL" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God - What for?
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy - Is eternal "hell" merciful?
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen - Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all - All?
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him - ALL into Him?
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things - does this include "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God - Including Satan? All creation!
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all - What does that mean?
31. Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live - How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth - How will the "righteous" Judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved so as by fire - How can FIRE save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire - Including you?
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world - Will fire save?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for ALL - Did He die in vain?
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father - What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things - Does "things" include people? YES.
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him - How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things - (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things".
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all - Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost - How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed - In the "lake of fire" which is the "second" death. No more dying (Rev 21:4, Isa. 25:8 )?
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure - Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed - Here comes that word "all" again.
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth - What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3, 4-Enemies will submit to God - Can any stay rebellious?
49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, and then says return - How can one return from "destruction"? Humbled, bruised and ashamed?
50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations - All nations?
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive - Kills to bring life?
52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts - "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler"?
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps - What about "free will"?
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands - So much for "free will."
55. La 3:31, 32-God will not cast off forever - Why does He cast off in the first place?
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house - ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him - ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified - Including the wicked ones?
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God - Are you catching on?
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - That sounds wondrous.
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things - I wish we would BELIEVE that.
62. Isa 19:14, 15-Egypt & ***yria will be restored - Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate - Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him - Nothing? No, nothing!
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him - For what purpose?
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him - Praise His name!
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all - Including your worst enemies.
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works - Let's start believing that.
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall - Who hasn't sinned?
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him - For "eternal torment"?
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people - And you are invited.
72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire.- This came from the carnal mind, NOT SPIRITUAL.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws (drag) them. - You can't "choose" to follow Him, SELF-DETERMINATION.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself - Amen!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him - If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in all, are you upset?

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soms,
Ok, I'll take the bait.:rolleyes:

First of all... say hi to Euty for me. I know him from CARM-He will remember me.
Secondly---some of these are not relevant to this thread. (but could be answered on a thread of your design.:cool:)
Thirdly...many of the questions being raised afterward are not even alluded to in the verses that are quoted. There are many pieces of verses but no immediate, or even larger context, to evaluate your claims against.

A case in point:
31.Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?

Yes I am still crying-because this verse has nothing to do with the present. In context it has to do with God wiping away every tear of those who have heeded His call to be reconciled unto him through His Son and have at that time entered into the eternal state with Him. Here is the immediate context:

Rev. 21:1-5--
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth p***ed away, and there is no longer any sea.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have p***ed away."

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

The context is given and now you can see that the question has nothing to do with now. You have not experienced a "new heaven and a new earth" being created. I know I haven't. God has not promised that all things would be resolved in our earthly lifetime.

Here's another:
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?

This does not teach salvation for all. This is a reference to all recognizing who Jesus is. They will bow to Him because they will understand that he is God, regardless of whether or not they believe in Him as the Savior-they will know it but have already rejected God's offer of reconciliation through Jesus. In the context of the p***age this is in the future.

There are many more but I really think the best way to do this is don't ask Euty's questions-ask yours-unless you are saying that you agree with his rendering of the contents of these verses. I would be glad to answer any and all of your questions-and I'm sure others would, too. Maybe if you broke these 75 questions down into separate categories. There are many repe***ions so there probably aren't really that many questions-but this would be extremely time consuming for those of us who would like to dialogue with you on these subjects. And, as I said, some are not relevant to this thread. So that would narrow the list down considerably. Sound reasonable?

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Dave,



I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word. :)

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

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I understand much of what you are trying to convey and I agree with you that there is a much needed call for a re-emphasis on 'love' in the church. And the world for that matter. Where we differ is that you don't include 'justice' in your definition of love. And many people do not feel that a loving God can mete out justice, or call for holiness and righteousness as they feel that to acknowledge these things in God also requires that they admit that there is such a thing as 'evil' which needs to be destroyed, or punishment for 'sins' (another unpopular word) by a 'just' and 'Holy' God. Scripture says that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (the helper) for the express purpose of dealing with these things:

John 16:7-11--

7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to 'convict' the world of these things. In other words 'make them feel guilty enough to repent of them'. Strong words from Jesus here. Some might consider them harsh even, just like when He called the Pharisees "snakes' and 'whitewashed tombs full of deadmen's bones'. His words-not mine.

Also we see things differently as regards heresies and those who promote them. In order for there to be a religious 'heresy' there has to be an original teaching that all agree contains the basic tenets of the faith which it seeks to undermine. Such was the case in the early church as Paul, John, Peter, and Jude all comment on the false teachers and false prophets who were in the church at that time. These included the Judaizers and the early Gnostics-the latter which took almost 4 more centuries to eradicate. Irenaeus wrote 5 books dealing with the Gnostic heresy which he was compelled to investigate because it threatened the very existance of the early church. In his books, of which I have downloaded three, he is very thorough in his investigation of the leaders and those who followed them, even to the extent of interviewing many of the leaders to hear exactly what they were teaching-before he called for their expulsion from the Church. This was in the first century. And this set the precedent for establishing an apologetic for the church--defense of the faith--as established in the scriptures:
1 Pet. 3:15--"..but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;..".

1 Tim. 3:13,16, & 17 warns us of what was to come, how to prepare for it, and how to gain approval from God for our conduct as Christians workers..13 "But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived; 16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

We are therefore on solid ground in preparing ourselves to meet this challenge head-on. ***us 1:9 is even more specific about our "overseer's" response to false teachers by: "..holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict."

Someone mentioned that 'truth did not need to be defended' but the Word of God says that we are called to do exactly that. Here is Paul on this subject:
Phillipians 1;7,16--
7 "For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me."16 "..the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.."

There are many more p***ages that speak to this issue but I will just cite these for now and respond that Jesus warned us in the Gospels that many false Christs, and false prophets would come later and "deceive many", and the New Testament writers as well as the early church fathers felt the need to combat this threat with stern warnings and to give authority to every believer to "defend" the faith and expose the false teachings wherever they may be found throughout the church age - until Jesus returns. That is my basis for "testing the spirits" as John says to do in his first epistle. I feel that we do a diservice to our fellow-believers if we allow these things to go unchallenged, and to a world that lacks discernment in these matters. If Jesus is the TRUTH as he claimed, then everything else must be held up to THAT TRUTH.

Heresy is still an operational word even in modern times. To expose it is not 'mean spirited'-it is always to be done with the goal of seeing others turn to the truth and of experiencing Jesus' love for them and the fate of their souls. He said that he came to seek and to save the lost--we don't help them when we tell them they are children of God when they are not-according to Jesus own words--there are lost people out there.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Dave,


Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

Trinity

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There is nothing violent about sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ simply because the one listening judges it to be offensive.

What is unloving toward another is keeping the gift of God to one's self while that brother/sister perishes. It is like having the cure for aids but keeping it to yourself because it might offend the one who needs it. What is unloving toward God is to avoid being offensive so that you will have men's approval.



John 12
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;

43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

The love and truthfulness of each persons heart can not be judged by how well others receive them and their message.

No person has ever loved another or has been as truthful as Jesus, yet He was mocked and hated and eventually crucified. Why? For His acts of kindness and healing or because He was careful not to offend others with His truth?

No, it was for the Gospel He preached because it was offensive to those who couldn't accept it. He was telling people the truth even though it offended them. He said, "Blessed are those who find NO offense in Me."

Did He push or impose The Truth with violence by saying what He said? Do those who preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ now push and impose the Truth with violence by quoting scriptures of what Jesus said, that "He is The Way, The Truth and The Life", and "no one comes to the Father but by and through Me"?

No, they preach the Gospel so that all who will hear and accept it might be saved because they love them. Just as in the p***age below Jesus was speaking the truth in love hoping that they might receive it and live.

John 8

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

13 So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."

14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

15 "You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.

16 "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.

17 "Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.

18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."

19 So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."

20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.

21 Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."

22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"

23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is pretty forceful, but I wouldn't call it violent.

25 So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?

26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."

27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.

28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.


This is the "Good News", the Gospel. Sharing this news with people is the very essence of love. It is the same thing Jesus spoke that offended those who would not accept Him. Those who share it risk many things like making friends, family, and strangers angry. Angry enough for them to be shunned, attacked, imprisoned, or even killed. But they love enough (even to the laying down of their own lives) to share it even with those who are offended and hate them for it.

No man (his heart) is good, only God is good.

Luke 18

18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.


The action of telling a person the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS love. It is loving another enough to risk your own life or any other adverse reaction. Disciples of Christ have been doing it ever since Jesus commanded them to do it. They are obeying His teachings and His commandments because they Love Him (GOD) and they love their neighbors (all).



John 14
23 Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him.

24 Anyone who does not [really] love Me does not observe and obey My teaching. And the teaching which you hear and heed is not Mine, but [comes] from the Father Who sent Me.


Matthew 28
9 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you,and behold, I am with you all the days [perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).


I have answered because it was posted here. However, this subject has taken this thread off topic because the topic is not "is it loving or unloving to share the Gospel of Christ with unbelievers?". The topic here is, "Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?" Maybe someone needs to start a thread for that topic if they would like to discuss that. :D Or perhaps a thread for the topic of "what is love?". I might start that one myself. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

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soms,
Even this verse must be held in context of what Paul was writing about.

1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, pe***ions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,

2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
What is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior? That we would make entreaties and prayers, pe***ions and thanksgivings on behalf of all men. No follower of Jesus ever believed that we should not pray for "all" men regardless who they are or what they believe.
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? God does, there's no disagreement there. But what is the knowledge of the truth? He answers that in verses 5 and 6.


7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

Here Paul reiterates that what he has said is the "truth" and so therefore he wants everyone to pray without anger or disagreement. Disagreement about what? About the fact that there is One God and One mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

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2 Peter 3

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

In this p***age His promise is His second coming. Some people were mockers and saying that Jesus wasn't true to His word.

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that
by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So they were looking for and expecting Jesus to return because He said that He will. And again we agree that God is not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to "repentance." What does it mean to "come to repentance"?

Hello Dave,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave52_47

Where we differ is that you don't include 'justice' in your definition of love. And many people do not feel that a loving God can mete out justice, or call for holiness and righteousness as they feel that to acknowledge these things in God also requires that they admit that there is such a thing as 'evil' which needs to be destroyed, or punishment for 'sins' (another unpopular word) by a 'just' and 'Holy' God. Scripture says that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (the helper) for the express purpose of dealing with these things:

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God never asked me to do justice on his behalf.

However, I believe that this kind of justice below is required by God, and this justice, is ***ociated with love.

Psalms 82:3
"Give fair judgment to the poor and the orphan; uphold the rights of the oppressed and the des***ute.

Jas 1:27 -
Pure and lasting religion in the sight of God our Father means that we must care for orphans and widows in their troubles, and refuse to let the world corrupt us.

We all want a pure religion with a good heart, and for all those who are suffering. I am also watching my bad heart because I do not want to be corrupted by the injustices of this world. If I want to change the world this should begin by changing my heart. My good heart should absorb the bad heart.

Pharisees lacked of this kind of justice.

Quote:

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Heresy is still an operational word even in modern times. To expose it is not 'mean spirited'-it is always to be done with the goal of seeing others turn to the truth and of experiencing Jesus' love for them and the fate of their souls. He said that he came to seek and to save the lost--we don't help them when we tell them they are children of God when they are not-according to Jesus own words--there are lost people out there.

---

Where there is a quarrel there is also no dialogue, and we are all losers.

Jas 1:26 -
If you claim to be religious but don't control your tongue, you are just fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless.

Because we have more than 35,000 christian denominations in United States this means that we have more than 35,000 variations of the truth. What are we selling? The simplicity of Christ and his Gospel or a systematic theology?

Trinity

Hello sayso,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sayso

There is nothing violent about sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ simply because the one listening judges it to be offensive.

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I think the problem is not about the truth itself but about the way that we are exposing it. We should never be upset about someone who is rejecting us. Just because people do not agree with our truth we should never become berserk. Where is the peace in Christ, if because of our negative emotions we are becoming afflicted? We should distinguish the reject of the truth from the reject of our person. Unfortunately, our ego is the source of all our divisions. Just because someone could disagree with us we have this tendency to look at him as an antagonist. Why? Because our ego is hurt we become suspicious. It is not the reject of the truth that upsets us but the reject of our self. That is touching the pride manifested in every human being.

2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come to visit you I won't like what I find, and then you won't like my response. I am afraid that I will find quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfishness, backstabbing, gossip, conceit, and disorderly behavior.

The problem is not essentially with all the unbelievers but with the believers. We should not be affected by the reject of the unbelievers, however the egotistic at***ude of the believers could be the main cause of this reject. The christian self-discipline is demanding that we tame the bad heart and that we monitor the inner man.

It is more easy to be the observer than to be observed. And if we are the observer, we should be the observer of our inner man and not of the others. Observing our thoughts, our emotions and actions, and learning about our bad heart or inner man. This is the only way we could love God with all our heart, by taming the bad heart and enlarging the good heart. On the path for a pure heart.

Trinity

Good morning Trinity,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello sayso,

I think the problem is not about the truth itself but about the way that we are exposing it. We should never be upset about someone who is rejecting us. Just because people do not agree with our truth we should never become berserk. Where is the peace in Christ, if because of our negative emotions we are becoming afflicted? We should distinguish the reject of the truth from the reject of our person. Unfortunately, our ego is the source of all our divisions. Just because someone could disagree with us we have this tendency to look at him as an antagonist. Why? Because our ego is hurt we become suspicious. It is not the reject of the truth that upsets us but the reject of our self. That is touching the pride manifested in every human being.

---

There there are cases of those who present the Gospel in a way that is not out of love.

However, that doesn't have to be the case for the truth to be rejected. As I said in my last post, no person has ever been or will ever be as loving or righteous as Jesus, yet many people were offended by what He said.

It is not always the person presenting the truth that is the problem.

The ears of a person often hear what they chose to hear in a persons message and because of their own bad heart judge the speaker because they are offended by what the person says and not how it was said.

And where the Gospel of Jesus Christ is concerned many don't need a bad at***ude to become offended. It is not automatically the speakers problem.

John 15

18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.

19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

You see, many times the world needs no reason to hate or be offended.

20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

21 "But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.

22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also.

24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

25 "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, 'THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'

26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

2 Corinthians 12:20

For I am afraid that when I come to visit you I won't like what I find, and then you won't like my response. I am afraid that I will find quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfishness, backstabbing, gossip, conceit, and disorderly behavior.

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The problem with you using this quote is that you've removed it from it's context. Paul is not speaking about the church preaching the Gospel or defending the faith to unbelievers in this verse.

He is writing to believers in Jesus Christ. The whole new Testament with perhaps the exception of the four Gospels are written to "The Church". He was concerned about their fighting amongst themselves not about them offending unbelievers. Here is what Paul had to say about unbelievers in relation to The Church.

2 Corinthians 6

14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Before you react to this last verse, let me share with you what "do not be bound together" means. It is not to be interpreted as "look at yourselves as better than those people are". It means, do not make mismatched alliances with them or come under a different yoke with them, inconsistent with your faith.

Our yoke is the one that we have received from Jesus, our Lord and Master. If we lay down His yoke and join ourselves with a person carrying another's yoke then we are no longer following Jesus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

The problem is not essentially with all the unbelievers but with the believers. We should not be affected by the reject of the unbelievers, however the egotistic at***ude of the believers could be the main cause of this reject. The christian self-discipline is demanding that we tame the bad heart and that we monitor the inner man.

It is more easy to be the observer than to be observed. And if we are the observer, we should be the observer of our inner man and not of the others. Observing our thoughts, our emotions and actions, and learning about our bad heart or inner man. This is the only way we could love God with all our heart, by taming the bad heart and enlarging the good heart. On the path for a pure heart.

Trinity

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I don't believe that the problem is with "all" unbelievers.

And I don't believe that it is "believers who are always being affected" by the rejection of the Gospel who are always the problem.

Man does not love God by fixing his own heart according to the Bible. Man must die and be born again. He must have a "new" heart not the old one that he has to work on to get it to love. Man can no more look into his own heart and make it love others, than he can do surgery on his own heart to make it pump blood.

This is a different gospel then the one I know.

Ezekiel 11

25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

God does all these things through Jesus when we accept Him.

Hello sayso,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sayso

Good morning Trinity,

There there are cases of those who present the Gospel in a way that is not out of love.

However, that doesn't have to be the case for the truth to be rejected. As I said in my last post, no person has ever been or will ever be as loving or righteous as Jesus, yet many people were offended by what He said.

It is not always the person presenting the truth that is the problem.

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I agree with you that the messenger is not always the cause for the reject of the message. Even Paul had said that it is better to have bad messengers than no messenger. However, Paul had also said that there is truthful messengers, and unfortunately, impostors.

Philippians 1:15-18
Some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives.
They preach because they love me, for they know the Lord brought me here to defend the Good News.
Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But whether or not their motives are pure, the fact remains that the message about Christ is being preached, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice.

Certainly the impostors are spreading the Gospel but they are also causing a lot of damages by their very wrong and evil at***udes.

Ghandi stated it best: "I love your Christ but I dislike your Christians." He also said: "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."

This is why it is imperative to tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. To distinguish the pure motives from the bad motives. There is no other way for acquiring a pure heart and a strong self-discipline.

Quote:

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Man must die and be born again. He must have a "new" heart not the old one that he has to work on to get it to love. Man can no more look into his own heart and make it love others, than he can do surgery on his own heart to make it pump blood.

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If your statement is true, well, christianity does not work. All the quotes that I have posted here, inside this thread, came from Paul complaining about christians. Christians living with an evil heart. They may be born again but they are still disciplined by Paul for their bad heart. The fact that christians are sinners is a proof that they are conducted by their bad heart. And if the full *** is done by the Holy Spirit and without willpower of the self, well, why Paul is always whining and complaining into all his writings about those christian believers?

Jer 17:10
But I know! I, the LORD, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve."

1Co 4:5 -
So be careful not to jump to conclusions before the Lord returns as to whether or not someone is faithful. When the Lord comes, he will bring our deepest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. And then God will give to everyone whatever praise is due.

James 2: 3-5
If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, "You can stand over there, or else sit on the floor" – well, doesn't this discrimination show that you are guided by wrong motives? Listen to me, dear brothers and sisters...

To be Born Again is meaningless for someone who has not wanted his heart to be exposed to his conscience.

1 Timothy 1:5
The purpose of my instruction is that all the Christians there would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and sincere faith.

Trinity

Trinity,

Saying that Jesus is the Only Way, the Only Truth, and the Only Light(The Gospel of Jesus Christ) is not an unloving thing to do regardless of how the hearers feel about being told. Jesus said it Himself.

In the scriptures I have posted here, Jesus clearly says that a person can not be saved except through Him. He came to tell the world that and to lay His own life down (be a sacrifice) so that ALL can be reconciled to God. He also said that people will "hate" you for telling them this, just as they hated Him.

If Ghandi didn't believe and accept that then he was no follower of Jesus, because he couldn't believe and follow Jesus without accepting Him for Who He is, GOD. If Ghandi had believed and trusted in Jesus to save, then he would have been preaching the Gospel.

Matthew 10

32 Therefore, everyone who acknowledges Me before men and confesses Me [out of a state of oneness with Me], I will also acknowledge him before My Father Who is in heaven and confess [that I am abiding in] him.

33 But whoever denies and disowns Me before men, I also will deny and disown him before My Father Who is in heaven.

34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 For I have come to part asunder a man from his father, and a daughter from her mother, and a [m]newly married wife from her mother-in-law--

36 And a man's foes will be they of his own household.

37 He who loves [and takes more pleasure in] father or mother more than [in] Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves [and takes more pleasure in] son or daughter more than [in] Me is not worthy of Me;

38 And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conforming wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also] is not worthy of Me.

39 Whoever finds his [lower] life will lose it [the higher life], and whoever loses his [lower] life on My account will find it [the higher life].

40 He who receives and welcomes and accepts you receives and welcomes and accepts Me, and he who receives and welcomes and accepts Me receives and welcomes and accepts Him Who sent Me.

Hello Sayso,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sayso

Trinity,

Saying that Jesus is the Only Way, the Only Truth, and the Only Light(The Gospel of Jesus Christ) is not an unloving thing to do regardless of how the hearers feel about being told. Jesus said it Himself.

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The problem is not Jesus but his disciples.

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.

Colossians 3:8
But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language.

In the two p***ages above, Paul was speaking to christians. Christians who were betraying their faith because they had been conducted and inspired by their bad hearts. People can call themselves born-agains but this is meaningless if they have no christian discipline.

Quote:

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In the scriptures I have posted here, Jesus clearly says that a person can not be saved except through Him. He came to tell the world that and to lay His own life down (be a sacrifice) so that ALL can be reconciled to God. He also said that people will "hate" you for telling them this, just as they hated Him.

---

He also said that this is those who have lived his teaching in practice that are the sons and daughters of God.

Quote:

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If Ghandi didn't believe and accept that then he was no follower of Jesus, because he couldn't believe and follow Jesus without accepting Him for Who He is, GOD. If Ghandi had believed and trusted in Jesus to save, then he would have been preaching the Gospel.

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I am not the judge of any man.

However, Gandhi saw the british protestant christians murdering his own nation, and stealing his country. He also witnessed the protestants who were doing the same thing in South Africa. The white protestants.

Can we blame him to like our Christ but to dislike his disciples?

Certainly when a man has a bible in one hand and a gun into an other hand, killing children, women, etc.

Merry Christmas to you and your beloved family.

Trinity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Sayso,



The problem is not Jesus but his disciples.


Merry Christmas to you and your beloved family.

Trinity

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Hi Trinity,

I wish you and yours a blessed and Merry Christmas also.

"The problem" is that we are still off topic, which is "Is Jesus the Only Way to know God?".

I know that the Bible(God's Word) says that He is the Only way. Jesus Himself said it. I believe Him because He is The Truth and does not lie.

Luke 13

22 And He was p***ing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem.

23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,

24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.


This is what happens to those who don't come to the Father through Jesus "the door".

25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'

26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';

27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'


WHO did Jesus say is the "DOOR"?


John 10:9

" I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Hello Sayso,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sayso

"The problem" is that we are still off topic, which is "Is Jesus the Only Way to know God?".

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Alright, let us look the question on an other angle.

Jesus Christ gospel was preached in the middle of the first century. Less than 25,000 people were christianized at the end of the first century (this number includes a variety of sects into the christianity of the first century, a dozen). What was the status of all the people from every continent (Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia) who have died before the end of the first century?

All these souls will be thrown into hell because of their ignorance? Yes? No?

Or, in the entire world, only 25,000 souls could enter into heaven during the first century? This is what you believe? Yes? No?

If you answer yes, this means that God had created a lot of people with the intention that they perish in hell. That also means that the aborted babies were more lucky than those who were living.

How someone from the first century living in Australia (or in South America) could believe in Jesus if he had never heard about him? They were disposable or wasted souls?

Trinity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Sayso,

Jesus Christ gospel was preached in the middle of the first century. Less than 25,000 people were christianized at the end of the first century (this number includes a variety of sects into the christianity of the first century, a dozen). What was the status of all the people from every continent (Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia) who have died before the end of the first century?

All these souls will be thrown into hell because of their ignorance? Yes? No?

Or, in the entire world, only 25,000 souls could enter into heaven during the first century? This is what you believe? Yes? No?

If you answer yes, this means that God had created a lot of people with the intention that they perish in hell. That also means that the aborted babies were more lucky than those who were living.

How someone from the first century living in Australia (or in South America) could believe in Jesus if he had never heard about him? They were disposable or wasted souls?

Trinity

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You presume that these people are ignorant but God is much bigger than you or I.

Jesus said, that The Gospel would be preached to everyone. Whether he uses men to do it or whether He Himself reveals it, nobody will be ignorant. All will have a chance to choose or refuse to come in through the door.

There are none who will be judged because of not hearing.


Matthew 24:14
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.



And sadly, I believe there are many who will not listen or repent and therefore won't be saved. However, it won't be because they didn't know any better or have a chance to choose whom they would serve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sayso

You presume that these people are ignorant but God is much bigger than you or I.

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I do not presume, this is a fact, the truth.

When the conquistadors (or Christopher Columbus) had discovered America (south) in 1492, the aborigines had never seen white men, before that period of time. Neither a cross, or a church, or about missionaries, a bible, they had known nothing about a man called Jesus of Nazareth. They had absolutely no knowledge about a gospel, nothing.

Quote:

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Jesus said, that The Gospel would be preached to everyone. Whether he uses men to do it or whether He Himself reveals it, nobody will be ignorant. All will have a chance to choose or refuse to come in through the door.

---

Unless you believe like the Mormons that Jesus had visited North America but you cannot prove it. There was no sign of the Christianity in North America and in South America before the arriving of the white men.

Quote:

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There are none who will be judged because of not hearing.
1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

---

That means you believe like the Mormons that everyone will have a second chance to be converted to Jesus Christ after their death. And if this is truthful, why to be converted in this life? Why not be converted after our death?

Quote:

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And sadly, I believe there are many who will not listen or repent and therefore won't be saved. However, it won't be because they didn't know any better or have a chance to choose whom they would serve.

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Every generation we have to preach the gospel to the whole world. People die, and they are replaced by new people. This is a perpetual ***. For eighteen centuries people do not have a personal bible. No broadcasting, no television, nothing. For fifteen centuries people could have only heard the gospel by the sermon of a priest (only in Europe mostly). 96% of the world population during this period did not know how to read or write. They were illiterate.

Trinity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

I do not presume, this is a fact, the truth.

When the conquistadors (or Christopher Columbus) had discovered America (south) in 1492, the aborigines had never seen white men, before that period of time. Neither a cross, or a church, or about missionaries, a bible, they had known nothing about a man called Jesus of Nazareth. They had absolutely no knowledge about a gospel, nothing.



Unless you believe like the Mormons that Jesus had visited North America but you cannot prove it. There was no sign of the Christianity in North America and in South America before the arriving of the white men.



That means you believe like the Mormons that everyone will have a second chance to be converted to Jesus Christ after their death. And if this is truthful, why to be converted in this life? Why not be converted after our death?



Every generation we have to preach the gospel to the whole world. People die, and they are replaced by new people. This is a perpetual ***. For eighteen centuries people do not have a personal bible. No broadcasting, no television, nothing. For fifteen centuries people could have only heard the gospel by the sermon of a priest (only in Europe mostly). 96% of the world population during this period did not know how to read or write. They were illiterate.

Trinity

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Trinity,
Here we go again, off topic. :D But I will not judge God because He does not do things according to how I think they should be done.

Romans 9

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMP***ION ON WHOM I HAVE COMP***ION."

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,


It is not possible for man to make sure that everyone hears the Gospel but all things are possible with God. I am not God so I don't understand all of His ways which are not the ways of man. I am clay. He is the potter. I believe that He is fully capable of making a way to get the Gospel to those who need to hear as in such a case as the Ethiopian eunuch.

Acts 8

26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a desert road.)

27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,

28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.

29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."

30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

31 And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32 Now the p***age of Scripture which he was reading was this:
"HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;
AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,
SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
33"IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY;
WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH."

34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?"

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.

36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

37 And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he p***ed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.



I believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. I believe that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

God specifically sent someone to the eunuch to share the Gospel with him. The scripture then says that "the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away". God is not hindered in the same ways that men are. I don't believe that we can know for a fact that God hasn't done this for others.


As far as the reference from Peter to the Gospel being preached to the dead; I believe that Peter was speaking of those who had perhaps lived and died before Jesus' time. But it is also possible that he meant that they had been preached to in their own time, before they died.

Hello Sayso,

Quote:

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Trinity,
Here we go again, off topic. :D But I will not judge God because He does not do things according to how I think they should be done.

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I think my questions about this topic are very pertinent and the answers are obvious. :)

Quote:

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I believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. I believe that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

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I also think that God has amazing attributes, but it is false to believe that all the world in the Christian age was evangelized de facto. There were men who never knew nothing about Jesus Christ (many millions, more than a billion of human beings).

Quote:

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I don't believe that we can know for a fact that God hasn't done this for others.

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Yes we can. You should watch some documentaries made by the National Geographic Society or the BBC on the aborigines in Australia or in the Amazon.

Quote:

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As far as the reference from Peter to the Gospel being preached to the dead; I believe that Peter was speaking of those who had perhaps lived and died before Jesus' time. But it is also possible that he meant that they had been preached to in their own time, before they died.

---

You should made up your mind. You quoted Peter first to prove that the gospel was preached to all and now you say something else.

Jesus Christ, is for you and me, the only way because we are christians. This cannot be applied to all the people who has never known nothing about him.

Trinity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Sayso,



I think my questions about this topic are very pertinent and the answers are obvious. :)



I also think that God has amazing attributes, but it is false to believe that all the world in the Christian age was evangelized de facto. There were men who never knew nothing about Jesus Christ (many millions, more than a billion of human beings).

]

Yes we can. You should watch some documentaries made by the National Geographic Society or the BBC on the aborigines in Australia or in the Amazon.


You should made up your mind. You quoted Peter first to prove that the gospel was preached to all and now you say something else.




Jesus Christ, is for you and me, the only way because we are christians. This cannot be applied to all the people who has never known nothing about him.

Trinity

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Hello Trinity,

Do you know Jesus? It is obvious you know about Him. But most of what you know seems to be from sources and men who believe Christianity and the Bible is a book of myths.

Jesus Christ for the whole world is the only way and it doesn't matter how many learned scholars say differently.

If Jesus is only for you and me then why did He tell us to preach the Gospel to the whole world? What's the point?

If everyone can live their life believing in and choosing their own means of salvation according to their own fleshly whims and all will get the same reward then why bother to follow Jesus at all. With this kind of God there is no cost at all to follow. If you don't like what He said just find yourself someone else who won't offend you or make you uncomfortable.

To believe that you can come to God through any means that makes you happy is tantamount to saying Jesus is a liar. If I believed that what He said might not be true I sure wouldn't live my life and sacrifice it for Him. But that's not what I believe and it isn't what the Bible, "God's word" says. I'm sorry that you are offended by it. I can not apologize for I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Acts 4

11 "He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.

12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

My God is the Only true God who sent Jesus so that through Him the "WORLD" would be saved. I believe HIM.




No BBC or National Geographic Society for me. I'll stick with trust in God and His word. :)

1 Corinthians 1

18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written,
"I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Hi Sayso,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sayso

Hello Trinity,Do you know Jesus? It is obvious you know about Him. But most of what you know seems to be from sources and men who believe Christianity and the Bible is a book of myths.

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I think people misunderstood the myth concept. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and I know he was a human being who was born during the time of Caesar Augustus and in proximity of an obscure village of the Palestine called Bethlehem.

The bible is a sacred book that contains histories and metaphors. There is truth in histories and also in the metaphors.

Quote:

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Jesus Christ for the whole world is the only way and it doesn't matter how many learned scholars say differently.

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Not for the eskimos and not before they had encountered the white men. The Eskimos will be judge according to their hearts and we cannot blame them for their ignorance, during a period of time where there was no missionaries.

Quote:

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If Jesus is only for you and me then why did He tell us to preach the Gospel to the whole world? What's the point?

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To bring more light and more revelation to the world.

Quote:

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If everyone can live their life believing in and choosing their own means of salvation according to their own fleshly whims and all will get the same reward then why bother to follow Jesus at all. With this kind of God there is no cost at all to follow. If you don't like what He said just find yourself someone else who won't offend you or make you uncomfortable.

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God will have to judge the eskimos and he is understanding that they never had a clue about the existence of his Son or the bible.

Romans 2:12-16
God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message.

You, me and the eskimos, we will all be judged by Jesus. Just because we can read a bible is not an excuse to escape the judgement. We should know how to read our heart because this is what will condemn or justify us. The heart should be changed even for the christians. Unfortunately, there are christians with a weak conscience.

Read this p***age carefully and meditate on it:

1 Timothy 1:5
The purpose of my instruction is that all the Christians there would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and sincere faith.

A pure heart...
A clear conscience...

Quote:

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To believe that you can come to God through any means that makes you happy is tantamount to saying Jesus is a liar. If I believed that what He said might not be true I sure wouldn't live my life and sacrifice it for Him. But that's not what I believe and it isn't what the Bible, "God's word" says. I'm sorry that you are offended by it. I can not apologize for I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

---

Do you have a pure heart?
Do you have a clear conscience?

Talk less, or read less, but listen and read what is inside of you. Focus yourself on your heart and your thoughts.

I am not offended by you or about anything you had posted. I am just trying to help you to see farther. :)

Trinity

I agree that it is God who will judge all. This thread isn't about judging others. It is about whether we are supposed to preach the Gospel(repent and be born again) to everyone we meet, because there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved.

Whether it is a fact or not that every person has a chance to hear, is not an indication that we are to keep the Gospel message to ourselves for fear of offending someone.

Sharing the Gospel is not judging another. It is offering life to someone who is dying.


Paul believed that there is "no other name under heaven by which men must be saved". He defended the Gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11

1 I WISH you would bear with me while I indulge in a little [so-called] foolishness. Do bear with me!

2 For I am zealous for you with a godly eagerness and a divine jealousy, for I have betrothed you to one Husband, to present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But [now] I am fearful, lest that even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds may be corrupted and seduced from wholehearted and sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

4 For [you seem readily to endure it] if a man comes and preaches another Jesus than the One we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the [Spirit] you [once] received or a different gospel from the one you [then] received and welcomed; you tolerate [all that] well enough!

5 Yet I consider myself as in no way inferior to these [precious] extra-super [false] apostles.

6 But even if [I am] unskilled in speaking, yet [I am] not [unskilled] in knowledge [I know what I am talking about]; we have made this evident to you in all things.



Galatians 1:6 - 8

6 I am surprised and astonished that you are so quickly turning renegade and deserting Him Who invited and called you by the grace (unmerited favor) of Christ (the Messiah) [and that you are transferring your allegiance] to a different [even an opposition] gospel.

7 Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but there are [obviously] some who are troubling and disturbing and bewildering you [with a different kind of teaching which they offer as a gospel] and want to pervert and distort the Gospel of Christ (the Messiah) [into something which it absolutely is not].

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

no...why would He "just send another"...if He was willing to live and die...that we may know of His willingness...He led by example. He was willing to give His very life and face even death..on the cross...that all might know of Him.
He was willing to live the very words...He spoke...
"There is no greater love than this, that a man be willing to lay down His life for a friend"
"Bless those who persecute you"
even as He faced death...He prayed forgiveness on all who slay Him.

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Jesus Christ, who is God, HAD to die on the Cross to pay the penalty for the sins of the world and reconcile us back to God. Only God Himself is the perfect sacrifice. No prophet could die for the sins of the world.

I would go one step further, Jesus is the only way to know anything (Col 2:3)

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie

If Jesus' teachings were all that was required, he never would have had to suffer and die on the cross. Wouldn't you agree? He would of just sent another Prophet if that's all it was.

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a very good point!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sayso

How about this question soms, I say that Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". He said, "no one comes to the Father (God) but by Me".

Tell me why you think He didn't mean what He said please. :D

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The scripture is clear. He is the savior of all man specially those who believe... meaning he is the potential savior of every human being who ever lived, but actually for those who believe. Prior to his incarnation the Lord (Jesus) was savior to all who were faithful to God in the amount of revelation from God at the time they lived. Abraham, Moses, Jacob, David, etc.

And the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word, the Word of God, the Angel of the LORD, I AM THAT I AM, El Shaddai, the voice of the LORD, etc) was the primary individual in the Godhead mankind has been dealing with or has dealt with them since the very beginning.

No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom he reveals him (Matthew 11 / Luke 10).

And the thing that stands out in Matthew 7:21-23 is the Lord placing all emphasis on knowing the one who claims to have been and done mighty things in Jesus' name.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


How many only {think} they know the Father and the Son or that they are known by the Father or the Son?

For some 1700 years the traditions of men have been masquerading as the truth... the hostile Roman take over has exacted many of these traditions which all Protestant denominations have carried over into their "reformation" movement.

The false teaching that the Body of Christ is divided into two categories (clergy / laity) being one of them. The Bible teaches the Body of Christ consists only of priests of God:

1 Peter 2:3-9 (KJV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Revelation 1:6 (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Revelation 5:10 (KJV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This was not to be fulfilled in the Old Covenant as God intended:


Exodus 19:6 (KJV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


...because the ordeal in Exodus 32 was far more devastating than most realize. It was so drastic in fact the LORD was ready to slaughter the entire race and start over with Moses. But Moses interceded and the Lord honored that. But several thousand were still slaughtered to in effect determine which would be the priestly tribe among the tribes. Moses' own tribe of Levi came to his side and did the LORD's bidding. So from that point on the Levites were the priests and the rest of Israel were essentially the laity.

Though the teaching of the traditions of men this non-biblical division was foisted upon the New Covenant.


Mark 7:7-13 (KJV)
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


The clearinghouse of mans traditions (calling itself the Church) has all but turned the faith away from the very Bible God gave us to (for one thing) use to see if the Church is going the wrong way or not...


And rather than teaching who and what God truly is by what the Bible says, they teach what their traditions say...

The so-called Apostles' creed.

I believe in God the Father Creator of heaven and earth.

Wrong!

God the Word (Jesus) created heaven and earth...

John 1:1-3
Colossians 1:13-16
Hebrews 1:2
ISAIAH 44:24 alone by myself

So... if we are versed in the traditions of men rather than the word of God how much do we really know God?

well,,,that last post kinda changed the topic....LOL

But as for getting back to the real topic talked about here...

I believe that if you seek God you will find him.

and you will be judged on the light you received...so that all are judged fairly