The one bolded in your post below.
The one bolded in your post below.
Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Okay, so to you, he is not the "begotten" Son of the Father, but just have this type of relationship.Quote:
So, you still didn't answer my question:
Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ? If Mary is Christ's mother (23 chromosomes of Mary)...where and how did the other 23 chromosomes show up, according to you. and how does that make Christ different from Adam, who was created by God?
Where did Christ get his extra 23 chromosomes from Billyray? How is Christ different physically from Adam?
Would it surprise you to learn that I've had many mainstream christians tell me that the Father/Son role is more ***le than actual relationship. They said there is not Father/Son relationship but Father is a ***le of heirarchy only.
ESV Study BibleQuote:
". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."
So, to you, when you read that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotton of the Father--your response seems to be "but not really."Quote:
ESV Study Bible
". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."
So, then why did Mary need to be overcome by the Holy Ghost--why not just produce a body the way Adam was produced or just the regular way a baby was produced and then implant in that body the spirit of God? And then why say "the only begotten" if it really wasn't the "begotten" Son of God?
Yes that they were always in Father Son relationship. Even you believe this prior to Christ's incarnation.Quote:
Actually I answered it hereQuote:
So, you still didn't answer my question:
Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ? If Mary is Christ's mother (23 chromosomes of Mary)...where and how did the other 23 chromosomes show up, according to you. and how does that make Christ different from Adam, who was created by God?
Where did Christ get his extra 23 chromosomes from Billyray? How is Christ different physically from Adam?
God can create by simply speaking it into existence. We aren't given any details such my answer is simply my opinion but God could have created an embryo without using any of Mary's chromosomes.
So, to you, when you read that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotton of the Father--your response seems to be "but not really."Quote:
Yes that they were always in Father Son relationship. Even you believe this prior to Christ's incarnation.
Actually I answered it here
God can create by simply speaking it into existence. We aren't given any details such my answer is simply my opinion but God could have created an embryo without using any of Mary's chromosomes.
So, then why did Mary need to be overcome by the Holy Ghost--why not just produce a body the way Adam was produced or just the regular way a baby was produced and then implant in that body the spirit of God? And then why say "the only begotten" if it really wasn't the "begotten" Son of God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.
The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.
Unique.
Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
Quote:
dberrie----One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.
We have earthly fathers for that.
If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.
The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
How did you come to this conclusion?
Quote:
dberrie---What conclusion are you referring to?
Billy--one point here before we get started. Your reproduction of my quote is not an exact quote. Please make my posts the exact reproduction. Your rudeness of using lower case to denote the word "God" should not be contracted to my posts.Quote:
To your point--there are no pregnant spirits that return to God. That happens in the physical realm--the mortal body. Mortality producing mortality.
What is your evidence of pregnant spirits?
Quote:DB your posts are so messy it is hard to tell who is speaking. Why don't you clean them up a little bit before you make any further complaints.Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.
The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.
Unique.
Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
Quote:
dberrie----One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.
We have earthly fathers for that.
If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.
The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
How did you come to this conclusion?
Quote:
dberrie---What conclusion are you referring to?
quote=Billyray;101703The one bolded in your post below.
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
one point here--god the father did not impregnate the spirit, which he is the father of--he impregnated the physical body--which god was not the father of.quote]
Billy--one point here before we get started. Your reproduction of my quote is not an exact quote. Please make my posts the exact reproduction. Your rudeness of using lower case to denote the word "God" should not be contracted to my posts.
To your point--there are no pregnant spirits that return to God. That happens in the physical realm--the mortal body. Mortality producing mortality.
What is your evidence of pregnant spirits?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Personal commentaries do not supplant the scriptures--what is it about "shall be to me a Son" being future tense that you do not agree with--as it relates to "this day have I begotten thee?"Quote:
ESV Study Bible
". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."
You didn't answer the question. Why do you say that god the father did not impregnate the spirit?Quote:
That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Billy--one point here before we get started. Your reproduction of my quote is not an exact quote. Please make my posts the exact reproduction. Your rudeness of using lower case to denote the word "God" should not be contracted to my posts.
No matter how messy you deem my posts--that is no excuse for posting changes in the reproduction of my posts--period.
Quote:
dberrie---To your point--there are no pregnant spirits that return to God. That happens in the physical realm--the mortal body. Mortality producing mortality.
What is your evidence of pregnant spirits?
What is it about mortality reproducing mortality we are not getting? Since the spirit leaves the body upon death, and returns to God--then there must be are two separate en***ies.Quote:
We know that the physical mortal body bears the mortal child. All of those who have reached the adult age understands that. What evidence do you have that the spirit is impregnated?
Are you saying that if one dies in pregnancy--then a pregnant spirit returns to God?
"Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
Jesus Christ was a Son before He came to earth--in the Spirit--as we all are as spirits.Quote:
That Jesus confirmed:
St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
God the Father is the Father and God of spirits.
That Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten" Son is reference to the earthly fleshly child of His mother Mary and His Father God the Father.
He was the only One ever born to this earth that had an earthly mother and a heavenly Father.
That distinguishes Jesus Christ as the "Only Begotten". If the disciples shared the same God and Father as Jesus Christ did--that is not a unique situation, and applies only to the spirit. The "Only Begotten" applies only to the flesh.
Quote:
dberrie---What is it about mortality reproducing mortality we are not getting? Since the spirit leaves the body upon death, and returns to God--then there must be are two separate en***ies.
We know that the [B]physical mortal body [/B]bears the mortal child. All of those who have reached the adult age understands that. What evidence do you have that the spirit is impregnated?
Are you saying that if one dies in pregnancy--then a pregnant spirit returns to God?
And just how do you relate this to the physical mortal body, and the spirit therein? How does this confirm that the spirit of the mortal body is impregnated?Quote:
"Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
How does even the immortal body being impregnated mean that the spirit is impregnated? You are printing that the spirit was begotten by heavenly parents--not that the spirit was impregnated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
What is it about mortality reproducing mortality we are not getting? . . We know that the physical mortal body bears the mortal child.
What father are you referring to? The one who impregnated the mortal Mary was immortal--that is the reason Christ possessed mortality and immortality, and hence--the "Only Begotten".Quote:
All other fathers are mortals, here in the mortal realm.
But ALL mothers have been mortals, and there is no record of their spirits being impregnated. Mary's mortal, physical body carried the Baby--the impregnation happened there.
Billy--give it up. Your point has been lost.
I am just still trying to figure out who Billyray thinks Jesus Christ's father was since he seems to think the term "begotten" is spoken more in poetic terms rather than concrete terms. As we know that Christ had a human body--I am wondering if half of his chromosomes were the virgin Mary's (his mother), then where exactly did he get the other 23?...and if they were just "created" by God, then how would Christ be any different from Adam---also a creation of God?
Of course he was. But I was addressing your comment below.Quote:
That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?
What part didn't you understand about my answer?Quote:
I am just still trying to figure out who Billyray thinks Jesus Christ's father was since he seems to think the term "begotten" is spoken more in poetic terms rather than concrete terms. As we know that Christ had a human body--I am wondering if half of his chromosomes were the virgin Mary's (his mother), then where exactly did he get the other 23?...and if they were just "created" by God, then how would Christ be any different from Adam---also a creation of God?
Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)Quote:
"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
All of it---to me, you are just basically saying that the body of Christ is just like any other body that God created such as Adam. Therefore, to you, Christ is not the begotton Son of the Father, but the term begotton only is used in a poetic term such as calling a dear friend an uncle even though there is no real relationship. Is this correct?
Billyray--to recap our discussion--you trying to connect Mary's impregnation to incest.Quote:
Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
Again--how are you tying the begetting of spirits to the impregnation of Mary's spirit, instead of her mortal body? This is where our discussion began:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.
The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.
Unique.
Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
Quote:
dberrie---One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.
We have earthly fathers for that.
If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.
The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.
I am asking specifically about this quote.Quote:
Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
It means that our spirits are made up of the spiritual matter of God.Quote:
I am asking specifically about this quote.
Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
Likewise, we believe that our begotten bodies are made up of the physical matter of our parents (their DNA).
In that light, I asked you your definition of begotten and stated in trying to understand your definition as explained by you:
"you are just basically saying that the body of Christ is just like any other "body that God created such as Adam. Therefore, to you, Christ is not the begotton Son of the Father, but the term begotton only is used in a poetic term such as calling a dear friend an uncle even though there is no real relationship. Is this correct?"
Once again, is this correct?
We are not told the exact mechanism, but I don't believe that the Father came down and had sex with Mary like I used to believe when I was LDS.
You are ignoring my question and making ***umptions that I did not state. We don't know how Mary was impregnated, only that she was overcome by the Holy Ghost and was impregnanted as she did become pregnant (or do you disagree with that?)Quote:
That said---you are ignoring my question. Did I have it correct in my descripion regarding what it means to you for Christ to be the "only begotten" of the Father?
Quote:
Okay--so this has gone from what it means to be begotten to your accusations regarding how Mary became impregnated. Well---to me, it just doesn't matter. I don't see sex as an evil or wicked thing especially in light of the fact that God created man and woman in His image and marriage is ordained of God and having children (procreation) is one of the most Godlike things we do.
That said, you are ignoring what you think it means that Christ is the begotten of the Father. Do you believe the term "begotten" does not mean what it means in every other case when it is used in the Bible? Are you changing the definition of "begotten" to suit your faith?
No. And one has to do no more than weed through our posts to see that your accusations did not pan out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Billyray--to recap our discussion--you trying to connect Mary's impregnation to incest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Again--how are you tying the begetting of spirits to the impregnation of Mary's spirit, instead of her mortal body?
I know exactly what you are doing, Billy. As soon as you lose one argument--you flip flop through another one.Quote:
I am asking specifically about this quote.
Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
be·get--Merriam Webster
verb \bi-ˈget, bē-\
be·got\-ˈgät\ also be·gat\-ˈgat\be·got·ten\-ˈgä-tən\ or be·gotbe·get·ting
Definition of BEGET
transitive verb
1
: to procreate as the father : sire
2
: to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
— be·get·ter noun