The confusing theology of the faith alone

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?

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Interesting statement. So people's sins were being remitted before Jesus paid the price for them?

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Interesting statement. So people's sins were being remitted before Jesus paid the price for them?

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Luke 7
44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet.
46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet.
47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

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Jeff did "Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross?

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---But you realize that a person could be saved by keeping the Law. Or didn't you know that?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

A couple of points here:

1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?

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But under the NT--all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that was made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--and His blood sacrifice:


Ephesians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hair--the forgiveness of sins comes through the Blood of Christ--period. There was nothing else ever sufficient whereby sins could be forgiven, nor will be--past, present, or future of that great Atonement of Jesus Christ.

We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved. They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus, whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone. "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Originally Posted by Ma'am

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone.

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The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.

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"For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Originally Posted by Ma'am

We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved.

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That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

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They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus,

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That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone,

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Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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"For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.

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Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by Ma'am

Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

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You mean this one?


Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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True faith always results in true good works, done out of gra***ude for the salvation we receive from Christ Jesus our Lord.

And I believe you are wrong about the mention of "faith alone" in any translation we could use. Doesn't Joseph Smith, in his translation, say that we are saved by grace through faith alone, in Eph. 2:8? I will need to check. No, it is Romans 3:8--here it is:

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Such comments seem to overlook one very important "correction" Joseph Smith made to the Bible in 1833. In his Inspired Version (A.K.A. Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible, Smith altered Romans 3:28. The King James Version (the official Bible of the LDS Church) reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." However, Joseph Smith included one simple word to his rendition of this beloved p***age. In his "translation" Smith added the word alone. Today it reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law."

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I believe it is Joseph Smith who is or rather was, the confused one. He couldn't seem to get his beliefs straight, the way he added and subtracted from Scripture in his own rendition of the Bible.

from http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst


But I see nothing confusing in the grace through faith alone salvation. Jesus did all that is necessary to save us; we can do nothing to help save ourselves. If we could, then Jesus would not have cried triumphantly from the cross, "It is finished!" If there still remained stuff we have to to help save ourselves, He would have shouted instead, "To be continued!"

By the way, was Paul wrong in what he wrote in Eph. 2:8? He said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, so no one can boast. Therefore, what is there left to be saved by?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You mean this one?


Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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Like most Mormons, you are talented at picking and choosing which verses to use to supposedly support your beliefs, while ignoring those that do not. Was Paul wrong when he wrote, "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and not by works, so no man may boast"?

Was Paul wrong when he wrote in Romans 4:4-5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Was he wrong when he also wrote, in Romans 3:24--"...being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus..."

See? Justification--being declared righteous and not guilty by God on account of our faith in Christ Jesus--is a gift. Was Paul wrong?

Was he wrong when he wrote, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23).

Paul writes that salvation and justification are FREE from God in Christ Jesus our Lord. If we have to do good works before God will give us this justification and salvation, how, then, can they be FREE?

James is talking about a living faith. I think he said to be "doers of the word and not hearers only." Our faith we declare in Christ Jesus should be backed up by deeds. But until we DO have faith in Jesus Christ, we can do nothing pleasing to God. How can we, when the unsaved are dead in their tresp***es and sins and in the uncircumcision of their hearts?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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Originally Posted by Ma'am

True faith always results in true good works,

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Again--is it true faith before or after the works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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And I believe you are wrong about the mention of "faith alone" in any translation we could use. Doesn't Joseph Smith, in his translation, say that we are saved by grace through faith alone, in Eph. 2:8? I will need to check. No, it is Romans 3:8--here it is:

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I stated in any translation you would use--not could use. Ma'am--you don't use the JST.

The JST was a differentiation between the Mosaic Law and the Gospel of grace--not a theology, as the faith alone has made it. Again--this is what is stated about the theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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But I see nothing confusing in the grace through faith alone salvation.

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I do. What is it about the fact "faith alone" is not found in any translation you would use do you not believe?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
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24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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Jesus did all that is necessary to save us; we can do nothing to help save ourselves.

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The Biblical record is clear--Jesus alone in the Atonement--and God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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If we could, then Jesus would not have cried triumphantly from the cross, "It is finished!" If there still remained stuff we have to to help save ourselves, He would have shouted instead, "To be continued!"

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God's part is finished--do you believe Peter told the truth?


Acts2:38--KJV
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Christ?


Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

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By the way, was Paul wrong in what he wrote in Eph. 2:8? He said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, so no one can boast. Therefore, what is there left to be saved by?

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That we are saved by grace--and not faith nor works--and that grace p***es through faith--is that dead faith Paul referred to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

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My father-in-law (to the best of my knowledge) confessed Jesus Christ as HIS lord for the first time ever, on his death bed. He had faith, but no works. Are you claiming he 'mustagone' to Hell?

I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Christian

My father-in-law (to the best of my knowledge) confessed Jesus Christ as HIS lord for the first time ever, on his death bed. He had faith, but no works. Are you claiming he 'mustagone' to Hell?

I don't think so.

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I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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So, do you obey your "real god" Satan?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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Originally Posted by Apologette

So, do you obey your "real god" Satan?

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The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--regardless of what you believe I do.

Catherine--that renders faith alone false--at once. Why don't the faith alone believe the Biblical NT doctrines? Why don't you use the Bible?


2 Timothy 3:15-17---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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In other words, you don't know where those who come to faith on their deathbed go.

Neither can you tell us what 'obeying Him' involves.

According to my Bible:
Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
ESV

My sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him. IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.

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Originally Posted by Christian

My sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

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Interesting. How does your statement compare to the scriptures?


Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

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Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him.

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I agree. But you just connected works and faith as integral components. If that is so--then why do the faith alone preach a gospel that has God giving His salvational grace to them without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

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IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.[/COLOR]

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Christian--in the faith alone theology--acts of obedience to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation.

berry posted:

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Originally Posted by ChristianMy sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

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Interesting. How does your statement compare to the scriptures?

It agrees with scripture completely.

Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
NASU

That includes EVERY ONE OF US CHRISTIANS.

Evil men can do nice things. The talaban build hospitals and feed the poor in the middle east; they are not Christians, but are muslims. Mormons have their stake warehouses for their own members. But you can do good works all day without Jesus Christ and still go to Hell.

Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And of course CHRISTIANS (everyone who has saving faith in Jesus Christ) don't do those things. Mormons do their secret handshakes, secret temple things, but we CHRISTIANS don't deal in that junk.

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Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him.

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I agree. But you just connected works and faith as integral components. If that is so--then why do the faith alone preach a gospel that has God giving His salvational grace to them without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

The FAITH (and nothing else) in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:4 above, Eph 2:8-9, etc etc) is what saves you. The good works naturally follow. THAT is the 'faith alone saves you" 'theology' that you obviously can't understand.

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IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.

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Christian--in the faith alone theology--acts of obedience to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation.

You are talking about the understanding I subscribe to. . .the acts of obedience DO have nothing to do with GETTING your salvation; they are EVIDENCE you HAVE BEEN saved; they are the natural OUTCOME from having been saved.

You don't know what you are talking about when you whine against 'the faith alone theology.' You don't know what it IS.

In the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ,
morefish

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

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What are you trying to do, dueling scriptures? You only listen or read the ones that agree with you...how many pages are in your Bible?

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

What are you trying to do, dueling scriptures? You only listen or read the ones that agree with you...how many pages are in your Bible?

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Does YOUR god contradict Himself? Do YOU really believe the God of the Bible is a liar, contradicting Himself? I study EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. I don't do as the mormons often do, pick out half-sentences, phrases etc and try to force them to sound like they agree with a pre-formed doctrine.

Sorry if you would rather do that.

in the Name of the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ,
morefish

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Originally Posted by Christian

Does YOUR god contradict Himself? Do YOU really believe the God of the Bible is a liar, contradicting Himself? I study EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. I don't do as the mormons often do, pick out half-sentences, phrases etc and try to force them to sound like they agree with a pre-formed doctrine.

Sorry if you would rather do that.

in the Name of the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ,
morefish

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Since I can only wonder how we got to "my" God lying. My God is Father, Don and Holy Ghost. Perhaps you have heard of them? Again grow up or post your parents permission slip.

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Originally Posted by Christian

Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

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"Works" for Paul, was the Mosaic Law. Romans 4 was about father Abraham--and Paul's point was that Abraham did not live under the law of works--Abraham did not do the works of the Mosaic because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law.

If Paul were trying to make the point Abraham's obedience did not count unto salvational grace--he would have been squashed:


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Paul had just finished giving this testimony:


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Which certainly collates with his other testimonies:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Since I can only wonder how we got to "my" God lying. My God is Father, Don and Holy Ghost. Perhaps you have heard of them? Again grow up or post your parents permission slip.

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So, you do remember the doctrine of God form your days in the Church.. Have you really retained faith in God, or has it been perverted by mormonism? Do you now believe that the Father is a separate being from the Son? Has God always been God or did He becomes a God through obedience to laws and ordinances? Were Jesus and the Holy Spirit creations of the Father or are they co-eternal with the Father? Are you ready to deny Smith and his doctrines of God, will you stay true to what God has revealed of Himself in the Bible? IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Christian

The FAITH (and nothing else) in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:4 above, Eph 2:8-9, etc etc) is what saves you.

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In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves one. Are you sure it's faith that saves?

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The good works naturally follow. THAT is the 'faith alone saves you" 'theology' that you obviously can't understand.

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I understand it quite well. First--one is saved without any obedience to Jesus Christ--then--good works follow--which means that dead faith saves one:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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You are talking about the understanding I subscribe to. . .the acts of obedience DO have nothing to do with GETTING your salvation;

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I know. In the faith alone theology--that is true. In the Biblical text--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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they are EVIDENCE you HAVE BEEN saved; they are the natural OUTCOME from having been saved.

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Tell us, Christian--was that natural outcome of repentance and water baptism here--- before or after one has been saved?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Did those who received of the Holy Ghost here--were they saved before the Holy Ghost--or after?


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

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dberrie----Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: [B]of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[B]

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Originally Posted by Christian

And of course CHRISTIANS (everyone who has saving faith in Jesus Christ) don't do those things.

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Are you saying that no Christian has never done any of those things--or that one is not a Christian if they do those things?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

"Works" for Paul, was the Mosaic Law. Romans 4 was about father Abraham--and Paul's point was that Abraham did not live under the law of works--Abraham did not do the works of the Mosaic because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law.

If Paul were trying to make the point Abraham's obedience did not count unto salvational grace--he would have been squashed:


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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Are you telling me that Abram wasn't given commandments from God? Wasn't he commanded to leave his home and journey into a land that God would show him?

Gen 12:1-4
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him...

Was Abram made righteous by that obedience? The Bible tells us that he was made righteous through faith, in believing God..

Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

It is clear that Abram was made righteous by God's grace through Faith and NOT BECAUSE OF HIS WORKS..

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Paul had just finished giving this testimony:


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

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And in this context of who is righteous by either keeping the Law (the Jew), or becoming a law to themselves (the Greek) The Holy Spirit through Paul makes it clear that none of us keeps the Law.. Not ONE.. So any hope to gain eternal life through obedience is lost in the fact "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. ( Romans 3:10-11). Lets think about this.. That statement on the level of man's righteousness is near the end of the explanation of what a righteous person is and what an unrighteous person is.. It is clear from the explanation of what an unrighteous person is that all of us are unrighteous.. If God does judge us for what we have done we will all be ****ed..

This is a proper way of leading a person to Jesus.. Make them see that they are sinners and deserving of God's wrath. and then as is seem later in these writings the Holy Spirit through Paul expresses the grace of God available to those that hold faith in Jesus. This is seen in the whole p***age from verse 9 to the end of the context that we are forced to conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Read all of Romans 2 and three for full understanding.. Not one of us in ourselves can be included as the righteous Paul explains in most of chapter 2.. Then in His explanation in Chapter 3 we see that not one of us are the righteous he was teaching about.. Instead we are all the unrighteous..

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Which certainly collates with his other testimonies:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

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And who are they that do not obey the Gospel? They are those that deny the Grace of God that is given to those that believe.. Those that instead of receiving the righteousness of Jesus as their own go about trying to establish their own righteousness.. The Gospel is good news, That news is that if you believe in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life.. Those that say, "oh yes we believe that, but those that believe must still do more. They must submit to baptism by our authority, they must join our church, they must keep our Laws they must do, do, do and do.. Then at the judgment God will see if they had done enough and are worthy to enter His Kingdom".. That is not GRACE, that is wages earned! IHS jim

[dberrie2000;151680]In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves one. Are you sure it's faith that saves?



I understand it quite well. First--one is saved without any obedience to Jesus Christ--then--good works follow--which means that dead faith saves one:


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



I know. In the faith alone theology--that is true. In the Biblical text--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Tell us, Christian--was that natural outcome of repentance and water baptism here--- before or after one has been saved?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Did those who received of the Holy Ghost here--were they saved before the Holy Ghost--or after?


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by James Banta

So, you do remember the doctrine of God form your days in the Church.. Have you really retained faith in God, or has it been perverted by mormonism? Do you now believe that the Father is a separate being from the Son? Has God always been God or did He becomes a God through obedience to laws and ordinances? Were Jesus and the Holy Spirit creations of the Father or are they co-eternal with the Father? Are you ready to deny Smith and his doctrines of God, will you stay true to what God has revealed of Himself in the Bible? IHS jim

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I misspelled Son into Don...just because they are three persons, does not mean they are not one.

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I misspelled Son into Don...just because they are three persons, does not mean they are not one.

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Good solid Trinitarian doctrine. Three separate persons, one God.. That is a long way from the teaching of Joseph Smith as he said there are three persons and three Gods. I could care less whether you believe that smith was a prophet or that today Monson is a prophet. You know that Christianity teaches one God in three persons. Now all you need to believe is Jesus as he taught that God loves the world so much that He gave us His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.. When you are ready again to believe that Jesus is the only way to Father and by the Father Grace through a faith in Jesus that He provides we are save, and NOT OF WORK so that none of us can boast of all we have done to deserve salvation.. IHS jim

BTW I understood what you were saying.. I am a extremely poor typist (I live in a gl*** house) I didn't hold that against you.. I am thinking about installing Dragon to fix most of my problems in typing..

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post"Works" for Paul, was the Mosaic Law. Romans 4 was about father Abraham--and Paul's point was that Abraham did not live under the law of works--Abraham did not do the works of the Mosaic because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law.

If Paul were trying to make the point Abraham's obedience did not count unto salvational grace--he would have been squashed:


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Are you telling me that Abram wasn't given commandments from God?

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Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?

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And in this context of who is righteous by either keeping the Law (the Jew), or becoming a law to themselves (the Greek) The Holy Spirit through Paul makes it clear that none of us keeps the Law.. Not ONE.. So any hope to gain eternal life through obedience is lost

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Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?



Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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If anyone wish to live their lives by the Old Testament, knock yourself out. However I take the Grace of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, so get over it!

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?

Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

If anyone wish to live their lives by the Old Testament, knock yourself out. However I take the Grace of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, so get over it!

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What is there about Hebrews 5:9 you don't consider NT theology? IE--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

[/B]


What is there about Hebrews 5:9 you don't consider NT theology? IE--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

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You wanta play Bible ping-pong? What about Mat 19:21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
So I hope you have sold all that you have, and are now following Jesus of The Holy Bible, and not some LDSinc. old guy.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

[/B]


What is there about Hebrews 5:9 you don't consider NT theology? IE--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

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God's grace is given FREELY! All he requires is that we have faith in him. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.… So then, this is work and God does not accept works. "And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Can you see that by works, God's grace has no part in it? God gives us His grace out of His love for us. All he asks of us in return is to believe in Him which is having faith in Him, trusting in Him. What is so difficult to understand? God's gospel is simple. Your religion's is not. You MUST work, you must obey, you must, you must, you must or never gain your exaltation. For me, a Christian, I already have my salvation for God has promised that to me in 11 John 5:13. Why make God's gospel into a works based one? There is no amount of works you could ever do that would be acceptable to God. "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away (Isaiah 64:6).

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Originally Posted by neverending

[SIZE=3]God's grace is given FREELY! All he requires is that we have faith in him.

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Is this an example of that faith?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Or--are you referring to dead faith?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

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And was this not Abraham's belief:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Quote:

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If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

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"Works" is a reference to the Mosaic Law. That was Paul's point--Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law. He lived under the gospel of Christ.

Here is the jest of Romans 4--the Jews--who always justified themselves as the elect, because they could point to father Abraham as their father--Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law(works)--which the Jews who fought against Paul did. Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting t take to the Jews under the Mosaic Law. IOW--if Abraham did not receive the promises under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--then how could they receive it under the Mosaic Law now?


Romans 4:1---King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?


What did Abraham find? The gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law(works)

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Good solid Trinitarian doctrine. Three separate persons, one God.. That is a long way from the teaching of Joseph Smith as he said there are three persons and three Gods.

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First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.

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I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do. Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?" What kind of Baptist Church did you attend?

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Originally Posted by Apologette

I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.

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It's Trinitarians who do that.

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Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"

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Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

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[nrajeffreturns;151798]It's Trinitarians who do that.

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Oh yes we are really bad.. We teach like Jesus did, that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). We teach as is preserved in Mark 1:10-11 that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons. We hold that the true God who is one Lord is the Only True God that exists. That there was no other before Him nor will there be after Him. That this God who knows all things doesn't even know that any other Gods exists.. And yet the Father is called God (John 20:17), Jesus is called God (John 1:1), and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4). Three separate persons all called God and yet the Bible adamant that there is One God. And that even at the insistence of Jesus Himself.. So what other doctrine is there that allows there to be one God and yet have three persons to all be God? Can you come up with anything other then the doctrine of the Trinity? Teach us..

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Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

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I think of Jesus coming into the world to be our Savior. He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.. IHS jim

Jeff posted:

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Originally Posted by ApologetteI'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.

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It's Trinitarians who do that.

Nope Jeff, we CHRISTIANS present God EXACTLY as we see Him in SCRIPTURE. No misrepresentations of anything at all.

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Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"

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Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

FIRST OFF, you should at least TRY to post the p***age CORRECTLY instead of WRESTING it to look like it agrees with you:
Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
NKJV


Not "THE" everlasting Father, but just 'everlasting father.'

I too am called father by my own children sometimes. I AM a father. But like Jesus I AM NOT MY OWN father. JESUS IS NOT HIS OWN Father, the FATHER HE PRAYED TO.

You believe in a cultic jesus, my friend.