Is Election the Only Means of Salvation?

And your point is??

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Originally Posted by Saxon

And your point is??

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Man has free will, and God is Sovereign.

Show me your scriptural support that Pharaoh was "forced" to do what he did. You are a fatalist.

fa•tal•ism noun \-tə-ˌli-zəm\

: the belief that what will happen has already been decided and cannot be changed

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fatalist

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Man has free will, and God is Sovereign.

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I tell a story to people when the topic of free will comes up, as a way to help them see how you can have God forcing Pharaoh to do things, and yet at the same time allowing Pharaoh to have free will to make up his own mind what he wanted to do.


Think of being a p***enger on a great ship at sea.
You have the freedom to walk around the ship in a clockwise direction, or in the anti-clockwise direction.
Yet although you have this freedom you are still just a helpless p***enger on board a great ship that is always under the firm control of the Skipper.

So both your freedom (freewill) and the Skipper's control of the ship (God's Sovereignty) work hand-in-hand together without getting each other's way.

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the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"

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You have come to the correct conclusion but you reasoning is totally out to lunch. God is Sovereign and within the sovereignty of God man has free will. God wants to save people, but people must respond to the call of God. God’s sovereignty does not make him a holy crybaby that gets his own way or nothing. The Bible is clear that it is not God’s will that any should parish but that all should come to repentance. (See 2 Peter 3:9) It is obvious that not all will come to repentance. Does this mean that God’s sovereignty is lost or even challenged? No because in the sovereignty of God man has been allowed to have a free will even if it goes against what God wants.

As far as God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, God did not do the deed but Pharaoh did it of his own accord in an act of rebellion and defiance of God. That is why it is said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. If God so loved the world, why would he harden anyone’s heart????

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

that is true.

God forcing is still contrary to free will.

Being on many ships I know that I have no will to go too far forward, aft, port or starboard. It soon becomes equivalent to taking a long walk on a short pier.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So both your freedom (freewill) and the Skipper's control of the ship (God's Sovereignty) work hand-in-hand together without getting each other's way.

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So this is why I try to point people to the true understanding of the life of Pharaoh.
The Bible clearly tells us that Pharaoh was being controlled by God.
There was nothing left to chance here by the Lord.
The Lord wanted Pharaoh to act and do things, and that is just what Pharaoh did.....

And yet at the same time we also read in other parts that Pharaoh was alone responsible for his actions.


When you study this story you also learn about how God interacts with the whole rest of creation too.
For there is nothing in the text to suggest that what happened to Pharaoh was any different than the way God treats all others....

So I believe God treats me in the same manner.
Im under the full control of God at all times, and that yet is also at work within my human free will to be free of any control over my life at all.


So when people tell me, that I cant believe in free will if I also believe God controlled Pharaoh I just smile....

you say "we read"; where do we read?? I agree that God treated Pharaoh the same as he treats the rest of the human race. God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

I do appreciate that you believe in free will. I think that is great.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

...... You were not chosen or predestined to anything until you were saved.... .

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Your statement is just wrong.

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Your statement is just wrong.

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And your statement is very informative. Don’t just tell me that my statement is wrong, help me to see the error of my statement if it is so wrong.

You are going to explain how you are in Christ before you were born into the world and how you were in Christ before you were saved. It is all to those that are in Christ Jesus, in Christ, in him, and in the beloved. None can be in Christ without being first born into the world, the natural birth, and then being born again, the spiritual birth.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Im writing a book right now.
I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
It was the story from the very beginning.

My point?


My point is that God does not "predetermine" anything "after' anything....


Nothing came before God's predetermination.

This topic reminds me of a guy who used to post here all the time.
He had the idea that God simply predestined the people who he first foreknew.

In his view,God looked into the future, He saw who of the humans would believe, and so God then knew who to therefore predestine to be a believer.


I totally disagreed with that whole idea he had.

I pointed out that his idea made god 'trapped" in time with the rest of us...for God had to "learn" who to predestine "before" he could predestine anyone.

That is why my friend's idea was in error...

For the truth is, that God's foreknowledge does not happen apart or before His predestination.

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? If so are the rest predestined to hell?

from the beginning of all.....not just known are we to the Lord...not just by his ability to know the future does god call us ,,but because it was predetermined as well...

what we want to avoid is thinking God is as trapped in time as we are.

By this I mean, that some people believe that God simply predestined the same people that his knowledge of the future told him that one day would believe in Him.

This cant be right as it means God had to cheat and look at what finally happens in the future before He knows what people predestine.

This is not the god of the bible.


The God of the Bible is not trapped in time, therefore He does not do one thing before another.
He cant learn one thing before he learns another...

and that mans he cant use his foreknowledge of the future to help him know who to predestine.

so if God picked us out before the beginning of the world, how can we then turn around and say God did not predistine some to Hell?

This is how -
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B


Calvin is wrong to say that some are predestined to hell

Arminianism is wrong to say we get to heaven on our own

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

What does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? Has he not chosen us in him before the foundation of the world? No one was in him before the foundation of the world. He would not have to know if any were going to be in Christ he still said that he has blessed us in Christ, he has chosen us in him, we are accepted in the beloved. Even in the video, Walter Martin said that it is “in Christ” and that we had to get there in time.

It is only those that are in Christ are we predestined to anything. Not before salvation.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

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the answer to the question is to point back to the recording by Walter martin.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B


and to point out my post number #54 above,
reprinted now here -


"Im writing a book right now.
I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
It was the story from the very beginning. "

So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.

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thee answer is this-

Calvin is wrong to say that some are predestined to hell
Arminianism is wrong to say we get to heaven on our own


I listened again to the recording of Dr Martin, and I narrowed down the whole thing to one moment that is centered on the very question you are asking..

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B
Click on the recording at the 5:00 moment and you will here just what I think, as spoken by someone a lot smarter than I am.

so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.


On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


and...

on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.


There is no answer to this dilemma.

People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.






Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL


But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.

The question was and is, Do YOU believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? You must know what you believe!

now how doi i teach members of my own Bible cl***, how to understand how God can be a sovereign, and have predetermined before the world began who would be with him in Glory, and yet at the same time also have a Christian faith that requires the person to hear and believe in order to be saved?


I try to tell a story that shows how this works in our lives.



You are on a great ship at sea.
the Skipper of the ship is the only one on the ship that has the authority to predetermine where the ship goes.
However the skipper has also granted the p***engers on-board the ship a limited amount of freedom to be able to walk around on the ship's deck.

So you as a p***enger walk out onto the deck, and decide to walk "clockwise",,,and so you have the limited freedom that does allow you to move your legs and walk clockwise around the ship's deck if you want...So you walk to the clockwise.


But the ship you are on is actually headed to the West.
the ship will arrive at the port on time in the west.....your freedom to walk clockwise do not interferer with the travel of the ship at all.

You never lost your limited freedom

You wanted to walk in one direction, and you did.
Its just that while you were doing that, the ship itself was going only in the direction the skipper wanted, regardless of your plans.


So the freedom we enjoy as p***engers can not overpower the command of the Skipper to control the ship.





its the same , with our lives and the sovereignty of God.

we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....

so its like Walter Martin says......its a dilemma.

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so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.

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So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.

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On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


and...

on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.

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And respond we must!!

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There is no answer to this dilemma.

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The answer is, within the sovereignty of God, God has given man a free will that man is responsible to use and for how he uses the free will that God has allowed man to have and use.

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People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.

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Unfortunately for that theory, I believe in the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.

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Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL

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I think that you know the verses but you haven’t found the way they work. Just as Walter said “In Christ”. In Christ is the key and being aware of when you actually were “in Christ” is a large clue to when a person is predestined. Listen to Walter again and see if he doesn't say that it happened in real time. Your arrival in Christ is concurrent with salvation.

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But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.

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It is not how God is God, but how God operates. The sovereignty of God and the free will of man in reality is too easy and no mystery when you believe exactly what Ephesians 1:3 to 7 says.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

yes..... :) as I said.....both sides of the issue always believe that with "just one more verse" then their side will be seen as being right.....LOL


Both sides are both slightly correct and dead wrong at the same time.....

when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?

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we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....

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Where does it say that God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven? I can show you where God has said that he will predestine those that are in Christ to adoption of children, but you can't show me where God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven. You and Walter have already said that Calvin was wrong on this very point. But you want it both ways when it is convenient.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?

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the answer is...?


The answer is that I predistined the hero to be a spy before I picked up the pen and paper.

The decision was already made...the whole life already planned out fully.
Nothing was left in doubt about the fate of the hero.
The story had yet to be written, but it was already predetermined how it would end for the hero.


its the same with my salvation.....
It was already a done-deal...predetermined, with zero left for chance or me to screw up....


Thats what it means to believe in predestination....that all events are not just 'known" but also planned for,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.

You are not on the same level as the creator of all that is created.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

But you want it both ways when it is convenient.

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Like I said....its a dilemma...thats what the term means!....

Both sides are in error, and are dead wrong.
and have some truth to them at the same time...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

You are not on the same level as the creator of all that is created.

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Yes, thats why my salvation had to be predetermined, as to not allow me to screw up...LOL

this is all gone over in detail on the recording...did you listen to it at all?



I love how I will say something like, "God predetermined my salvation"...and the anti-Calvinist will react and try to show me a ton over verses that "prove" that God only reacts to what he sees us choose...


on the other hand, if I tell a Calvinist that "I have free will and i also decided if I wanted to believe or not" then they will have a whole list of bible verses that "prove" God is alone sovereign....



Both sides are right up to a point..
and dead wrong too

So your life is a programmed happening and you spend your life mindlessly executing code and following instructions that God has programmed you with.

I have been listening to Walter Martin since the early 70's and I can say that I did listen to him before you posted it and I did listen to the pot you made.