Grace Controversy!

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Originally Posted by Saxon

When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God's ......?

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The answer is "yes"


it is as I said above -

"The answer is this -
In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


That's the answer....

That clearly does not answer my question.

No scripture to support????

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Originally Posted by Saxon

That clearly does not answer my question.

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Walter actually addressed your point as well at 8:50 of the linked video.


"You expected Parcheesi?"
"Chinese checkers?"

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Originally Posted by Saxon

No scripture to support????

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well, ok,
But you did kinda ask for me to answer in my own words...

But you do ask a question that many teachers have also asked, - "When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God?"

The way your question is worded it ***umes that the answer is one or the other.
The question is written that way because we humans tend to think that way...
We like to believe that an answer is ether "this" or its "that".

We look at the text from this mindset that only one can be true and we find plenty of support for our answer, and thereby automatically dismiss the many Texts that support the other side.

This is the error of both Calvin and Arminius.

But the truth is, that if you look you can find support for both answers being true.

How can this be true?.....the answer to that is "Why would it not be this way, considering you are dealing with the mind of God?"





Thus we get to the answer I have learned to trust, from a Bible teacher I have learned to trust, "In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...

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I think my post above is very clear...
I addressed the question of salvation from both the limited, human point of view, and from the eternal point of view of the Lord's.

How is it that "it all came down to a decision" and yet "there was nothing left for you to decide. What you have stated is a total impossibility.

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.

From the beginng...nothing was unknown or left to chance

I posted the video that talks about this on the first page...post 21 I think

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Originally Posted by Saxon

How is it that "it all came down to a decision" and yet "there was nothing left for you to decide. What you have stated is a total impossibility.

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.

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Within God's preordained plan for men there was taken into account man's ability to respond

That has nothing to do with my statement or question.

That has nothing to do with my statement or question either.

And I responded to that already.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

That has nothing to do with my statement or question either.

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It is my answer

Your answer has nothing to do with what I asked.

Well it's too bad you think that but this is my answer none the less.

I believe my answer is in full agreement with Walter Martin

Maybe it was someone else's question you were answering???

You might try another question....something new

You didn't answer this one so I won't stress you out over any more that you won't answer.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

You didn't answer this one so I won't stress you out over any more that you won't answer.

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If a person is asking about how men can be held responsible yet all things are predestined? ....
Then this is the answer...


That within the preordained plan of God there is perfect union between God's full control of the universe and man's ability to respond.

This was the question: How is it that "it all came down to a decision" and yet "there was nothing left for you to decide. What you have stated is a total impossibility.

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.

You have said nothing to address anything that I have specifically inquired about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuUKE5resPs




the video lists the common text on this subject...starting with Ephesians 1

4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

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Originally Posted by Saxon

To what were you predestined?

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to enter into the very presence of God at the end of time.


"to be holy and blameless in His presence"

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Originally Posted by Saxon

When were you predestined? .

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Before the creation happened...before time.

"before the foundation of the world "

so that above supports what I said about looking at this question from the Lord's point of view.

Now we will look at this from man's point of view

"When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"

Here we see at Ephesians 1:13 the text supports what I have taught on man's ability to respond to God.
This shows that we are held responsible to answering the calling that we receive.



This all supports what I said before..

Great. Now to what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

You are going off track. What were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Great. Now to what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

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" He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence." - Ephesians 1:4



This is talking about a Christian being now able to walk right into the holy or holies in heaven....to be able to be there, face to face with God....the very presence of God Almighty!.......Amen!!!!

and all this was set in stone before creation...

To what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

so in other words, its talking about a plan God had for me...this plan was set in stone and could not be changed from before creation happend...

the plan took into account my own ability to answer and respond to God.

So there is a union between God's sovereignty and man's ability to respond

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Originally Posted by Saxon

To what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

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Ephesians 1:4

any questions?

What were you predestined to? That is the question.

That is fatalism not faith.

Your first sentence has cancelled the second. If it is "set in stone" you have no choice your ability to respond is not there.

Before the world was created God chose me to be with him as holy and sinless...this had nothing to do with me.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Your first sentence has cancelled the second. If it is "set in stone" you have no choice your ability to respond is not there.

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actually within the plan of god for me, there is a perfect union of his sovereignty and my free will....his rule of the universe took into account my ability to respond to him...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Your first sentence has cancelled the second. If it is "set in stone" you have no choice your ability to respond is not there.

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You know.....

In the video I posted by the Walter Martin, he does address this very same type of issue you raise here...

I will post it again,,

Try listening to the point starting at around 3:00 point of the recording

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuUKE5resPs&t=479s