Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Libby

You do have a way of twisting words,Billy. That's not a good thing.

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Billy has that talent

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Originally Posted by Libby

I never, personally, witnessed that, but I would guess that the reasoning was that, once you have the "fulness", only satan could cause you to go to something less.

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So Lucifer's church where he hires Christian ministers to convert people is the Church of the Lamb of God according to Mormon thinking?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So Lucifer's church where he hires Christian ministers to convert people is the Church of the Lamb of God according to Mormon thinking?

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Huh?

Sorry, but that is making no sense, to me.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Huh?

Sorry, but that is making no sense, to me.

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Why doesn't that make sense to you?

Define your concept of the church of the devil.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Huh?

Sorry, but that is making no sense, to me.

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Here is a reminder

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So every person on this board belongs to the Church of the lamb of God and we are all going to be exalted?

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Originally Posted by Libby

Within Mormon theology that is a distinct possibility. :)

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List what church is the church of the lamb of God.

List churches that fall under the church of the devil.

The two churches are not specific denominations, Billy. I already explained that. In simple terms, they are made up of those "individuals" who either embrace Christ or reject him.

Those individuals will belong to a lot of different denominations, with people from both the church of the devil and the Church of the Lamb of God within ALL of those denominations, including Mormonism.

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Originally Posted by Libby

The two churches are not specific denominations, Billy.

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Come on Libby what Mormon really believes this?

Do you believe from the LDS point of view that there is one true church?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Come on Libby what Mormon really believes this?

Do you believe from the LDS point of view that there is one true church?

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Here on earth, yes, there is one true church, per LDS theology. But, in the broader picture (into the eternities) that "church" becomes much more inclusive. That's the whole purpose of Temple work.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Here on earth, yes, there is one true church, per LDS theology. But, in the broader picture (into the eternities) that "church" becomes much more inclusive. That's the whole purpose of Temple work.

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But is that a different church or the same church?

When you say more inclusive do you believe the Mormon church and the Catholic church are both the true church in the eternities?

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Originally Posted by Libby

Here on earth, yes, there is one true church. . .

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So on earth what church is the church of the lamb of God?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So on earth what church is the church of the lamb of God?

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

This issue is not as simple as you are trying to make it, Billy.

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Originally Posted by Libby

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

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Libby this is not a difficult question. It seems in your zeal to try and defend Mormonism you are not being very honest with me here.

What church is the church of the lamb of God?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby this is not a difficult question. It seems in your zeal to try and defend Mormonism you are not being very honest with me here.

What church is the church of the lamb of God?

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Billy, I'm getting a little tired of you questioning my honesty. I may be mistaken in some things, but I am never intentionally dishonest.

I don't know what you were taught about The Church of the Lamb, but I do know what I was taught, in the LDS Church, and no one ever told me that only those who belonged to the LDS church, while on this earth, were the only members of the Church of the Lamb of God. Just the opposite. I have told you exactly what I was taught in the church. If you have something different to present, then by all means present it. I have searched lds.org and really could not find anything definitive on the subject, other than the actual scriptures in 1 Nephi.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I don't know what you were taught about The Church of the Lamb, but I do know what I was taught, in the LDS Church, and no one ever told me that only those who belonged to the LDS church, while on this earth, were the only members of the Church of the Lamb of God.

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Yet you were taught that the LDS is the only true church. And that only the LDS members could be exalted. And the LDS church has the priesthood authority which is the only true authority on earth. And that any ordinance such as baptism by any other church wad invalid and had to be repeated by someone who held authority in the LDS church. Coupled with the teachings in the temple pre 1990 that lucifer hired a Christian minister to convert them to his church. Tell me which church on the earth is the church of the lamb of god?

". . .Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that “the ***les church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."
http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

Libby which churches fit the above description for the church of the devil?

". . .Clearly, whatever denominational name we choose to give it, the earliest apostate church and the great and abominable church that Nephi and John describe are identical. The fact is, we don’t really know what name to give it. I have proposed hellenized Christianity, but that is a description rather than a name.

The historical abominable church of the devil is that apostate church that replaced true Christianity in the first and second centuries, teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. It dethroned God in the church and replaced him with man by denying the principle of revelation and turning instead to human intellect. As the product of human agency, its creeds were an abomination to the Lord, for they were idolatry: men worshipping the creations, not of their own hands, but of their own minds. . ."
http://lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warrin...f-god?lang=eng


Above this author gives information about the historical church of the devil. And note it is a church not a vague group of people that span all denominations.

As usual, Billyray, you have taken so much out of context, it is amazing. I hope people will go read the whole Ensign article you provided rather than your little snippet that in an of itself is misleading.

Here is another quote from the Ensign.

"In the historical sense, though, only one en***y can be the great and abominable church. Well-intentioned churches would thus not qualify as the mother of abominations described in 1 Nephi 13. They do not slay the saints of God nor seek to control civil governments nor pursue wealth, luxury, and sexual immorality."

And another:

"The word church (Hebrew qahal or edah; Greek ekklesia) had a slightly broader meaning anciently than it does now. It referred to an ***embly, congregation, or ***ociation of people who bonded together and shared the same loyalties. Thus, the term was not necessarily restricted to religious ***ociations; in fact, in Athens the Greeks used the term to denote the legislative ***embly of government."

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

As usual, Billyray, you have taken so much out of context, it is amazing.

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What amazes me is the denial that LDS members have today over this issue that was not the case when I was LDS.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Do you believe that there was a specific historical church that is the church of the devil as described in the Ensign?

2. Do you believe BRM quote below?

". . .Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that “the ***les church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What amazes me is the denial that LDS members have today over this issue that was not the case when I was LDS.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Do you believe that there was a specific historical church that is the church of the devil as described in the Ensign?

2. Do you believe BRM quote below?

". . .Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that “the ***les church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

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Do you believe McConkie meant ALL CHURCHES (other than LDS) were "leading people away from God"? Certainly doesn't appear that way to me...and I know for a fact that is not taught in the church today.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Do you believe McConkie meant ALL CHURCHES (other than LDS) were "leading people away from God"?

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Yep


. . .

I don't see him saying that. I think you might be reading into it.

The link for your article doesn't work, btw (for me, anyway).. I'll have to see if I can google it.

I do know Bruce McConkie has said things that were very controversial and things he has even taken back, at times. But, I don't really see what you are seeing, in these snippets you have provided.

How long have you been out of the LDS Church, Billy?

I have only been out for a couple of years.

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Originally Posted by Libby

The link for your article doesn't work, btw (for me, anyway).. I'll have to see if I can google it.

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http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

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Originally Posted by Libby

I don't see him saying that. I think you might be reading into it.

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"which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God”

Don't ALL churches teach things that lead people off course when looking at it from the LDS point of view?

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Originally Posted by Libby

How long have you been out of the LDS Church, Billy?

I have only been out for a couple of years.

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I left more than 10 years ago.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

As usual, Billyray, you have taken so much out of context, it is amazing.

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J answer these questions

1. Which church is the church of the lamb ig god?

2. Which churches fall under the heading OT the church of the devil?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

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Thanks. This first statement fairly well reflects what I have been saying.

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The use of the word church to describe Satan and his followers has confused some because they think of the term in the more limited sense of a specific religious organization. But if one thinks of the phrase “the church and kingdom of God,” one has a better concept of what is meant by the church of the devil. It is his kingdom, the sphere of his influence, the whole of his area of power.

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That is you, Billy. You are mistaking the two churches for specific religious organizations, when actually they are more accurately described as "spheres of influence".

Have to run for now.

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Originally Posted by Libby

That is you, Billy. You are mistaking the two churches for specific religious organizations, when actually they are more accurately described as "spheres of influence".

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The church of the devil isn't a specific organization it is ". . .all churchES or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

Now tell me Libby which churches fall under the category of the church of the devil using this criteria?

This really is not that hard of a question which makes me wonder why you are having such a difficult time with it.

". . .This definition explains why Nephi was taught that “there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church” ( 1 Nephi 14:10 ).. . ."
http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

Libby do you believe that the church of the Lamb of God is the LDS church?


How do you become a member or "belongeth" to the church of the Lamb of God?

Back to the subject of this thread, for a second, because I read an article this morning that relates. It is political, but has to do with Mitt Romney and Mormonism.

Gingrich IA Political Director Resigns after “Cult of Mormon” Comments Go Public

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It’s official: it is no longer acceptable to call the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the fourth largest religious ins***ution in the United States, a church with 7 million members in the US and 14 million members around the world, a “cult.”

That’s the message Newt Gingrich sent when he fired his newly-hired Iowa political director Craig Bergman after it was revealed that Bergman had proposed a national crusade against the “cult of Mormon” in an Iowa focus group last week.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The church of the devil isn't a specific organization it is ". . .all churchES or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

Now tell me Libby which churches fall under the category of the church of the devil using this criteria?

This really is not that hard of a question which makes me wonder why you are having such a difficult time with it.

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Billy, I really think you are the one who is not understanding. The answer to your question is not "any and all churchES or organizations that are NOT LDS", as you seem to be interpreting this statement, but rather (the answer is) "any and all churches or organizations which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God". No doubt there are a few churches that may actually be designed to do just that, but I would say relative few, as compared to those which actually encourage a belief in God/Christ and his moral laws.

McConkie, himself, explains that the two churches are a "sphere of influence", not any organized church, per se.

I still think you are reading in your own interpretation of what he is saying. I see his quote as very much in sync with what I was taught in Gospel Doctrine (by our First Counselor in the Bishopric, who was very knowledgable and familar with LDS doctrine...so, I certainly trust his interpretation over yours).

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Originally Posted by Libby

but rather (the answer is) "any and all churches or organizations which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God".

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That is exactly what I have said Libby.

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Originally Posted by Libby

No doubt there are a few churches that may actually be designed to do just that, but I would say relative few, as compared to those which actually encourage a belief in God/Christ and his moral laws.

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A few? Are you kidding me?

OK lets look at the evidence. Lets start with this one. Do you think that the Catholic church leads people away from the truth of Mormonism?

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Originally Posted by Libby

McConkie, himself, explains that the two churches are a "sphere of influence", not any organized church, per se.

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Here are the two churches

1. The Mormon church

2. All other churches and organizations that lead people away from the true church and the true teachings of the true church.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I still think you are reading in your own interpretation of what he is saying.

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I think you are trying to avoid the obvious. Why? I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I think you are trying to avoid the obvious. Why? I don't know.

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Nope. I simply think you have it wrong. The LDS Church does not teach what you are claiming it teaches.

Btw, Billy, I already answered your question about The Church of the Lamb of God. Go back and read it again.

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Originally Posted by Libby

The LDS Church does not teach what you are claiming it teaches.

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No I think you have it wrong Libby.

Here it is again, in case you couldn't find it.

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

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I am certainly willing to be corrected by anyone who is a current member of the LDS Church, if what I have said above is grossly incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Btw, Billy, I already answered your question about The Church of the Lamb of God. Go back and read it again.

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Here it is

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Originally Posted by Libby

I don't know what you were taught about The Church of the Lamb, but I do know what I was taught, in the LDS Church, and no one ever told me that only those who belonged to the LDS church, while on this earth, were the only members of the Church of the Lamb of God. Just the opposite.

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Libby you did not tell me in your post what is the church of the Lamb. Please tell me what organization is the church of the lamb.

Yes, I did. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My claim (and what I was taught) was that there are potential members sitting in every church on this planet. I don't think you can reasonably deny that.