No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

You keep asking the same question that I have already answered in a previous post. Even Ray Charles can see the point I am trying to make.

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Mesenja, instead of trying open and honest dialogue you are vague and cryptic in your responses. You are not very clear in your posts and you come across in a very sneaky way. But you probably already knew that. Why not open up and be a little more direct? If you have the truth then you don't need to hide.

You said, "The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord."

Do you stand by that quote?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You said:

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

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Do you stand by that quote?

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Here's what I said Billy. Now you tell me why I should support an evangelical proof text as I am a Latter-day Saint and this goes against the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

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Do you believe that the thief on the cross was with Jesus in Paradise?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Now you tell me why I should support an evangelical proof text as I am a Latter-day Saint and this goes against the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

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Are you asking me why you should believe a Biblical verse, especially one that conflicts with LDS teachings? That is a simple one. Because the LDS church is false and the Bible is true.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that the thief on the cross was with Jesus in Paradise?

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Do you believe that this is right of you to do?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Do you believe that this is right of you to do?

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I did not include the first sentence but the second sentence was word for word. In fact I copied it and pasted it so it was completely accurate. I have no idea what your position is that is why I have repeatedly asked you over and over again to explain your position. I have given you ample opportunity to clarify yourself and you could of taken that opportunity to correct me if you felt that I have misquoted you, but you didn't. I am still confused about your point even as we speak. Instead of belly aching about me misquoting you why don't you do something novel and tell us what your position is--which I have asked you over and over again. This seems to me to be a game you are playing rather than open and honest dialogue. You may think that you are communicating effectively but I am here to tell you that you are not and I am left to try and repeatedly guess what you are trying to say despite asking for clarification.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Are you asking me why you should believe a Biblical verse,especially one that conflicts with LDS teachings? That is a simple one. Because the LDS church is false and the Bible is true.

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I'm asking why you bore false witness. I am asking why you believe in sola scriptura when it refutes itself. I'm asking why you believe that the Bible is self explanatory?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I did not include the first sentence but the second sentence was word for word. In fact I copied it and pasted it so it was completely accurate. I have no idea what your position is that is why I have repeatedly asked you over and over again to explain your position. I have given you ample opportunity to clarify yourself and you could of taken that opportunity to correct me if you felt that I have misquoted you,but you didn't. I am still confused about your point even as we speak. Instead of belly aching about me misquoting you why don't you do something novel and tell us what your position is--which I have asked you over and over again. This seems to me to be a game you are playing rather than open and honest dialogue. You may think that you are communicating effectively but I am here to tell you that you are not and I am left to try and repeatedly guess what you are trying to say despite asking for clarification.

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That would be something very novel. You know that this is not my position at all. Yet you edited my quote to make it appear that I believe this. The only games that are being played here is by you. I gave my refutation of your position. Either deal with it or not. I don't care one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

That would be something very novel. You know that this is not my position at all. Yet you edited my quote to make it appear that I believe this. The only games that are being played here is by you. I gave my refutation of your position. Either deal with it or not. I don't care one way or the other.

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You just can't express what you want to say can you? This is a big game or joke for you isn't it? I still am unclear what your point is. This is the same place we have been for the last several pages. I keep asking you what you have meant but you keep this game going on and on and on despite my inquiring what you have meant. There is no reason or gain that I can get by purposely misquoting your position because you simply can point out what your position is to correct me. But you have not done this despite my asking.


WHAT IS YOUR POINT? PLEASE TELL US SO WE CAN STOP GUESSING. But my guess is that you will not do so. You will continue on with this little game of yours because you really do not want to talk about the issues.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

That would be something very novel. You know that this is not my position at all.

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I went back to go over our dialogue

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Originally Posted by Billyray

That is absolutely true. So you must have a point, what is it?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Figure it out Einstein
My previous post was pretty clear as to what my point was. You don't have an argument.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

It was completely unclear. That is why I asked you what was your point. Do you have one?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

I've already told you
Can you read this or do I need to enlarge the font size? You don't have an argument. Read my previous post. It has the evangelical argument for this verse and my refutation of it.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree with you on this point. The thief on the cross was with Jesus in Paradise that day. So what is your point?

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Finally I think this is your position after all of the useless banter

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

You don't have an argument that this incident either proves salvation by faith alone or death bed repentance. If you have a disagreement with the re****al I gave then present it. Constantly repeating a question that I have already answered is both rude and counter-productive.

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But here is your original quote

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

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Here is the whole issue. We both agree that the thief was "promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord" Just like your quote states--you may not agree with the word saved but you stated "saved or promised"

So do YOU believe your quote above?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

You don't have an argument that this incident either proves salvation by faith alone or death bed repentance. If you have a disagreement with the re****al I gave then present it. Constantly repeating a question that I have already answered is both rude and counter-productive.

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***uming that this is the point the you were trying to make.

The thief on the cross did go to Paradise that day to be with Jesus, a place were the righteous go after they die prior to the resurrection of Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

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Luke 23:43 "Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Mesenja--do you believe what you have written, which just so happens to be almost word for word from the scripture. Again I guess I am missing your point. Do you reject the scriptures?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You just can't express what you want to say can you? This is a big game or joke for you isn't it? I still am unclear what your point is. This is the same place we have been for the last several pages.

I keep asking you what you have meant but you keep this game going on and on and on despite my inquiring what you have meant. There is no reason or gain that I can get by purposely misquoting your position because you simply can point out what your position is to correct me. But you have not done this despite my asking.


WHAT IS YOUR POINT? PLEASE TELL US SO WE CAN STOP GUESSING. But my guess is that you will not do so. You will continue on with this little game of yours because you really do not want to talk about the issues.

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I gave the evangelical position of what this verse means. Then I gave you my refutation of it. There is a reason for purposely misquoting my quote. But I wont call you a self serving liar as that is against the rules.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is the whole issue. We both agree that the thief was "promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord" Just like your quote states--you may not agree with the word saved but you stated "saved or promised" So do YOU believe your quote above?

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First of all this is not my quote. Second you are deliberately misquoting me and attributing this position to me. Third according to the evangelical position salvation is equated to being in Paradise. Fourth this is a scriptural proof text given by evangelicals to support salvation by faith alone and death bed repentance. Fifth I have refuted this argument by showing that the bodily ascension of Jesus had not yet taken place. Now you figure it out Einstein as to why the thief was not saved.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Too bad Einstein

I gave the evangelical position of what this verse means. Then I gave you my refutation of it. There is a reason for purposely misquoting my quote. But I wont call you a self serving liar as that is against the rules.

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A liar?

Einstein?

Mesenja, you are a piece of work. This just shows your real intent here is not for ongoing dialogue but for gamesmanship. I asked on several occasions for clarification because I did not understand your point. If I don't understand your point then I don't understand your point. You basically quoted scripture in your original post which I agree with and I ***umed that you agreed with it--that is why I wanted further clarification.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

First of all this is not my quote.

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What do you mean it is not your quote?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

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And here is the Bible quote which is almost identical to your quote.
Luke 23
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Second you are deliberately misquoting me and attributing this position to me.

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You were paraphrasing a Bible verse. I would think that you would agree with this position. AND my quote was word for word. Go back and check it

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Third according to the evangelical position salvation is equated to being in Paradise.

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Your quote stated
"The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord."

You used saved OR promised. The Bible clearly states that the thief was promised that he would be with Jesus in Paradise.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Fifth I have refuted this argument by showing that the bodily ascension of Jesus had not yet taken place. Now you figure it out Einstein as to why the thief was not saved.

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You haven't refuted anything Mesenja, only in your own mind. You see you have to change the word Paradise to mean something else and/or you have to discount what Jesus really stated to come up with the LDS position. The Bible teaches that prior to the resurrection of Christ the believers and nonbelievers where in a separate location and that you could not go back and forth between the two, and this location was not necessarily with the Father. But clearly Abraham etc. were saved.


Mesenja, do you believe the Bible? Was the thief on the cross in Paradise with Jesus as Jesus promised?
Luke 23
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What do you mean it is not your quote?

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What words can't you understand? It was a quote from a Good Friday Sermon presented by Kenton David on 03/21/2008 at Miller Evangelical Christian Union Church.

You keep deliberately attributing quotes to me that I did not make. My argument was also very simple. Here it is again. If you can't figure it out as of yet or be bothered to scroll up and see it that isn't my problem.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

A liar?

Einstein?

Mesenja,you are a piece of work. This just shows your real intent here is not for ongoing dialogue but for gamesmanship. I asked on several occasions for clarification because I did not understand your point. If I don't understand your point then I don't understand your point. You basically quoted scripture in your original post which I agree with and I ***umed that you agreed with it--that is why I wanted further clarification.

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No in my post Evangelicals say this 06-12-2010 I gave the evangelical Protestant argument for this verse. These are the relevant portions to the argument at hand.

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Jesus did not say anything like that but he said today. Not tomorrow,not next week or next month but TODAY you will be with me in paradise. That’s what you call ***urance of salvation. All because he saw Jesus as Lord. That’s important because Romans 10:9 says that “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God,and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

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The thief who made it into heaven is a great example letting us know that even at the last minute you can be saved you can make it to paradise but we must be sincere.

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So I leave you with this question when are you going to stop mocking and ridiculing Jesus and recognize him for who he is? Are you aiming to be told “today,you will be with me in paradise?”

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My refutation of this position was very simple. The thief was not given ***urance of salvation that day because he was not with Jesus in Paradise. Therefore Heaven does not equate to the same place as Paradise and consequently he was not saved.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

My refutation of this position was very simple. The thief was not given ***urance of salvation that day because he was not with Jesus in Paradise. Therefore Heaven does not equate to the same place as Paradise and consequently he was not saved.

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Luke 23
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This verse clearly states that the thief will be with Jesus that day in paradise.

You disagree with the Bible on this point, correct? Why?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

I mean what I say

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I will not feed your bad behavior by taking your bait and going down dead end trails like I have done in the past.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Luke 23:43 "Jesus answered him,"I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise."

Mesenja--do you believe what you have written,which just so happens to be almost word for word from the scripture. Again I guess I am missing your point. Do you reject the scriptures?

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Why do you constantly bear false witness against me? I've already given you an answer as to your proof text. All I can say is if you are having difficulty understanding it tough.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Why do you constantly bear false witness against me? I've already given you an answer as to your proof text. All I can say is if you are having difficulty understanding it tough.

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I am not going to continue to feed your bad behavior by taking the bait to go down a rabbit hole. Please address the question. Here is the question again.

Mesenja, do you believe the Bible? Was the thief on the cross in Paradise with Jesus as Jesus promised?
Luke 23
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What do you mean it is not your quote?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And here is the Bible quote which is almost identical to your quote Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise."

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You were paraphrasing a Bible verse. I would think that you would agree with this position. AND my quote was word for word. Go back and check it

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Your quote stated that "The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord."

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You used saved OR promised. The Bible clearly states that the thief was promised that he would be with Jesus in Paradise.

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No Billy you go and check out what I posted. For your convenience it is found at "Evangelicals say this" I said quite clearly that I was giving the evangelical Protestant position as regards to this particular verse. Yet you like to continue to play your games.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

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This is the last time I will address this issue. If you enjoy this gamesmanship of yours then from this time forward you will have to use it on another poster.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You haven't refuted anything Mesenja,only in your own mind. You see you have to change the word Paradise to mean something else and/or you have to discount what Jesus really stated to come up with the Latter-day Saint position. The Bible teaches that prior to the resurrection of Christ the believers and nonbelievers where in a separate location and that you could not go back and forth between the two,and this location was not necessarily with the Father,but clearly Abraham etc. were saved.

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The thief was clearly not with Jesus in Paradise which equates to salvation according to evangelical Protestant thinking. And yes Billy it would necessarily mean that if the thief was saved today and not tomorrow then Paradise would have to equate with Heaven. If you have disagreements with this then take your concern to Kenton David of Miller Evangelical Christian Union Church.

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Jesus did not say anything like that but he said today. Not tomorrow,not next week or next month but TODAY you will be with me in paradise. That’s what you call ***urance of salvation. All because he saw Jesus as Lord.

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That’s important because Romans 10:9 says that “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God,and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The thief who made it into heaven is a great example letting us know that even at the last minute you can be saved you can make it to paradise but we must be sincere.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So I leave you with this question when are you going to stop mocking and ridiculing Jesus and recognize him for who he is? Are you aiming to be told “today,you will be with me in paradise?”

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What does Kenton David equate Paradise to Billy. That's right he equates it with Heaven or salvation. Now ask yourself this question Billy if the thief did not go to paradise which is according to you a separate location in the spirit world where the believers go then was he saved?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

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Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him,"I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise."

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This verse clearly states that the thief will be with Jesus that day in paradise. You disagree with the Bible on this point,correct? Why

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The reason for this being that it disagrees with what he told Mary after his bodily resurrection from the tomb.

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John 20:17

17 Jesus saith unto her,Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren,and say unto them,I ascend unto my Father,and your Father;and to my God,and your God.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I will not feed your bad behavior by taking your bait and going down dead end trails like I have done in the past.

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You asked for an explanation I gave it to you. Now you are accusing me of bad behavior. If you also don't want to reconcile these two statements then that is your choice.

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Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee,To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her,Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren, and say unto them,I ascend unto my Father,and your Father;and to my God,and your God.

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