A "what if" question for critics.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, you are convoluting the issue. It doesn't matter who is doing the drawing, if you truly believe there is only ONE God. Isn't that one of the big issues for critics of Mormonism??

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We don't teach that the Father is the same person as the Son.. The person of the Son was crucified.. Was he alone in His divinity as the spikes were driven through His flesh.. No, the Father and the Holy Spirit were there experiencing every second of His atonement through the shedding of His blood and sacrificial death. Still it was the Person of the Son that made the sacrifice.. Are you gone so far that your spirit can't understand these things?

BTW mormon polytheism is the only sin that is so terrible that is so terrible as to guide every soul they cause to believe in Smith to hell.. That is the most major sin of mormonism.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, you are convoluting the issue. It doesn't matter who is doing the drawing, if you truly believe there is only ONE God.

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I am not convoluting the issue rather I am pointing out that TrueBlue doesn't seem to have a clue about the Christian Trinity. Here is his or her post again. Let's take a look at it.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

There is only one God. Whatever the Father does, so also does Christ, whatever Christ does, so also the Father.

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Is what TrueBlue said correct? Jesus died on the cross did the Father die on the cross?

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Originally Posted by James Banta

.. Are you gone so far that your spirit can't understand these things?

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If you might back-up and see the context of what Libby was talking about, you might also see she was commenting on the fact that Billy seems to be suggesting the weird idea that while the Son can be said to be drawing all men to himself, that is somehow different than the Father drawing all men to himself...

Billy is clearly suggesting that the Son is doing some drawing of people that the Father does not seem to want to draw, ?????

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not convoluting the issue rather I am pointing out that TrueBlue doesn't seem to have a clue about the Christian Trinity. Here is his or her post again. Let's take a look at it.

Is what TrueBlue said correct? Jesus died on the cross did the Father die on the cross?

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Billy this is a very silly thing for you to say ...

I believe it is YOU who is parting ways with the traditional Christian teachings on the trinity here...
If Christ did something while he was on the earth, it was only via the Father that it was done....

So if Christ says that he is drawing all men to himself this is only because it is the Father that is doing the drawing...
It was the Father in Christ that was doing the drawing...

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You didn't answer my question. Can you show me where it says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

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Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father. Have they not been able to resolve their differences since the pleading of Christ to the Fatehr in the Garden?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

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Let's not forget 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

unless you think the divide between Father and Son is so great that they are both at odds with each other.

Tread lightly Billyray, because you are approaching an area the Mormons and Trinitarians both agree on, and that is the complete unification of will between Father and Son and carrying on this line of argument is coming close to blasphemy according to both camps.

Maybe you can explain how the drawing of the Father rids one the ability to make a choice and ignore the calling and is somehow zombie slave like fashion forced to except Christ.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

We don't teach that the Father is the same person as the Son.. The person of the Son was crucified.. Was he alone in His divinity as the spikes were driven through His flesh.. No, the Father and the Holy Spirit were there experiencing every second of His atonement through the shedding of His blood and sacrificial death. Still it was the Person of the Son that made the sacrifice.. Are you gone so far that your spirit can't understand these things?

BTW mormon polytheism is the only sin that is so terrible that is so terrible as to guide every soul they cause to believe in Smith to hell.. That is the most major sin of mormonism.. IHS jim

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Are you so gone spiritually that you would advocate the Father and Son having opposing wills?

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Are you so gone spiritually that you would advocate the Father and Son having opposing wills?

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You have raised a good point.
from the posts you are responding to here it does seem clear that in order to defend Calvinism there are people on this forum that have now needed to have the Son doing some drawing of men, while acting like this does not mean the father is also doing the drawing.

This is a clear attack on the unity of the trinity.....
I know James and Billy would never do this except for the way their defense of Calvinism seems to have made this necessary.


My view is that the Trinity is a Bible teaching from God.....whereas Calvinism is just an idea a guy dreamed up on his own.
and, that the idea Billy came up with here that the Son can draw men but not the Father is just a silly argument that is easy to forget ....






Here is what Jesus thinks of the idea -

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


So when Christ says that when he is lifted up and draws all men to himself, whom do we know is actually doing this work?__________

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You have raised a good point.
from the posts you are responding to here it does seem clear that in order to defend Calvinism there are people on this forum that have now needed to have the Son doing some drawing of men, while acting like this does not mean the father is also doing the drawing.

This is a clear attack on the unity of the trinity.....
I know James and Billy would never do this except for the way their defense of Calvinism seems to have made this necessary.


My view is that the Trinity is a Bible teaching from God.....whereas Calvinism is just an idea a guy dreamed up on his own.
and, that the idea Billy came up with here that the Son can draw men but not the Father is just a silly argument that is easy to forget ....






Here is what Jesus thinks of the idea -

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


So when Christ says that when he is lifted up and draws all men to himself, whom do we know is actually doing this work?__________

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This verse also seals the truth with it on how the Son and Father operate in complete unity....

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Joh 5:19 KJV)

This makes it very clear that if Christ is doing it, then so is the Father.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Let's not forget [I][COLOR="#FF0000"]4

Tread lightly Billyray,

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Tread lightly. I find that statement very interesting coming from someone who takes to word of a con-man ie, Joseph Smith jr. Over the Word of God.
Tread lightly, yes we all should.

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Tread lightly. I find that statement very interesting coming from someone who takes to word of a con-man ie, Joseph Smith jr. Over the Word of God.
Tread lightly, yes we all should.

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Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

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Let me then say this.. Thank God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for His Love and grace given to me. I praise Him for the salvation he has given to me 100% through His efforts, by His power. Cursed be the mormon god who is taught to have been a mortal on another world, who became a god through his own efforts. Who is said to have created everything spiritually before it became a physical creation.. Cursed be a god that only organizes the elements into the world we see around us instead of call them into existence by the power of His word.. Cursed be all false gods..Cursed be the message given by their false prophets.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

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According to the Holy Bible, LDSinc. And their followers are a living a daily life of blaspheming, denying the ONE True Living God.
Again, for the record TrueBlue, how many gods are there in Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind religion of mormonism? If you don't know, then take a guess.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father. Have they not been able to resolve their differences since the pleading of Christ to the Fatehr in the Garden?

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So I can only ***ume from your answer above that you have no verse that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Right?

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Those who are drawn by the Father are raised. If the Father draws ALL men then ALL would be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father.

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The Father and the Son would love to see ALL men obey ALL of the commandments.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Let's not forget 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

unless you think the divide between Father and Son is so great that they are both at odds with each other.

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Again you are avoiding answering my question. If you throw out sections of scripture then sure you can make the scriptures agree with any position but you won't answer my question because it disagrees with your preconceived ideas. However if you want to understand God's message to us you have to accept ALL of the Bible not bits and pieces. Here is my question for you about this section of scripture.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Don't worry, I am comfortable where I place my feet. As for others, when they are on the verge of blaspheming God even under a Mormon's standards, they are definitely in rough waters.

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How is anyone "blaspheming God"?

You are the one who simply ignores verses that you don't like, you don't see the Christians doing that because we accept the entire Bible cover to cover. You pick the verses that on the surface support your position and flat out ignore all of the verses that completely contradict mormonism. Am I right?

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Can you tell me what there verses are teaching us?

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Billyray do you believe that Christ wants something that the Father doesn't want?

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

In the verse above, Christ wants all men to be saved, but according to you regardless of what Christ may want or desire, the Father wants something different. Are you telling me that there is no perfect unity between the person of Christ and the Father. Have they not been able to resolve their differences since the pleading of Christ to the Fatehr in the Garden?

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TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source. I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. .

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I was always under the impression that you were attracted to our manly physique ????


well that's the way I tell the story anyway...

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source..

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You certainly don't come to try and find the truth because if you did you would actually believe the Bible from cover to cover. But what we see is that you--and other lds such as TrueBlue--do is to reject large chunks of the Bible that you don't like and simply write it off as non truth. BigJ you did that with the Isaiah p***ages, the Genesis 1 p***age, and many other verses that we have given you. And TrueBlue is doing the same thing with the John 6 p***ages. And he or she will do it with any of the next verses that I will provide to show that the lds position is absolutely false. But I welcome you input on the John 6 p***ages. Or you could finish answering my question about Genesis 1 (a verse that YOU first brought up)

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . .

Who are the "us" and "our" that made man?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.

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Because you can't accept the Bible as the word of God from cover to cover and defend your position from the Bible you have now taken the low road and made false accusations against us. Shouldn't this be a big clue that you have the wrong position?

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

According to the Holy Bible, LDSinc. And their followers are a living a daily life of blaspheming, denying the ONE True Living God.
Again, for the record TrueBlue, how many gods are there in Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind religion of mormonism? If you don't know, then take a guess.

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I don't see what your question has to do with the fact that James and Billyray have the Father and Son at odds with each other. You can claim whatever you want about how many Gods Joseph claimed there was, but one thing for sure, Mormons have always believed in the perfect unity of the Father with the Son. Joseph Smith can't help you here, Billyray and James need to take a long look at where their beliefs lead them concerning the Trinity.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So I can only ***ume from your answer above that you have no verse that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Right?

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Those who are drawn by the Father are raised. If the Father draws ALL men then ALL would be raised and we both know that this is not the case.

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Billyray I gave you a verse where is says that Christ would have it that all men be saved, if Christ wants it then the Father wants it.

Can you show me a verse that the Father and Christ can't agree on things?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The Father and the Son would love to see ALL men obey ALL of the commandments.

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That is not what the verse says

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

Nothing about commandments there. Just about being saved, and coming to a knowledge of truth, sounds like a type of drawing unto to me.

Billy, you have completely annihilated that verse. Do you realize that?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Again you are avoiding answering my question. If you throw out sections of scripture then sure you can make the scriptures agree with any position but you won't answer my question because it disagrees with your preconceived ideas. However if you want to understand God's message to us you have to accept ALL of the Bible not bits and pieces. Here is my question for you about this section of scripture.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

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Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question. I have answered it. In order for verse 36 & 37 to work the way you want them to you would have to set Father against Son. Jesus wills that all men are saved, and come to a knowledge, being as Him and the Father are perfectly unified then we can agree that the Father wishes the same.