Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Libby

I see a lot of ex-Mormons making some pretty outrageous claims, about the church, and I think a certain amount of ignorance about the church is fairly common (for both inactive and active members).

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Another Mormonesque comment by you Libby. You are on a roll. Tell me what I have said that has misrepresented the Mormon Church?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I told you, I had no burning in the bosom...but, I did have an experience that I have not been quick to dismiss. I still believe it was of God. I won't discuss that here, though.

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Why would God confirm a false book that supports a false religion?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Another Mormonesque comment by you Libby. You are on a roll. Tell me what I have said that has misrepresented the Mormon Church?

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I think you want people to believe that the LDS Church teaches that all other churches are of satan. I wasn't taught that and I don't believe the LDS Church teaches that, today. They teach that all other Christian churches hold some truth and that most Christians will be going to the Terrestial Kingdom, which is a kingdom of glory, so magnificent, that most would believe it was heaven. Christ, himself, will even visit there. That doesn't exactly sound "condemning" of other Christians, now, does it?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I think you want people to believe that the LDS Church teaches that all other churches are of satan.

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1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp

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What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

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It teaches McConkie's opinion without any nuance. It says all that you want to hear.

Here is some more of what is taught:

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As BYU professors Robert L. Millet and Lloyd D. Newell explain: “We need only become acquainted with individuals of other religious persuasions to recognize their goodness and the truths that they possess.
It would be blatant arrogance to suppose that the Latter-day Saints are the only people on earth with whom our Heavenly Father is concerned or to whom he seeks to make known his mind and will. God loves all of his children on earth and seeks to teach all that people are prepared to receive (Alma 29:8).”

The Light of Christ clearly illustrates God’s universal effort with the whole human family (see D&C 88:7; Moroni 7:16). President Packer explains: “Every man, woman, and child of every nation, creed, or color—everyone, no matter where they live or what they believe or what they do—has within them the imperishable Light of Christ. In this respect, all men are created equally. The Light of Christ in everyone is a testimony that God is no respecter of persons (see D&C 1:35). He treats everyone equally in that endowment with the Light of Christ.” He continues: “The Light of Christ is as universal as sunlight itself. Wherever there is human life, there is the Spirit of Christ. Every living soul is possessed of it. It is the sponsor of everything that is good. It is the inspirer of everything that will bless and benefit mankind. It nourishes goodness itself.” President Packer then adds, “It should not be difficult, therefore, to understand how revelation from God to His children on earth can come to all mankind through both the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.”10

Furthermore, presently and throughout history, God has blessed many nations through those not of the Church who are given a portion of truth “that he seeth fit that they should have” (Alma 29:8). In 1978 the First Presidency stated:

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promisedMessiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel. Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come. We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to His Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happinessand a fullness of joy forever. . . . Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.11

Teachings of other religious leaders past and present help many people become more righteous, civil, and ethical.12 God also uses good people outside of the Church to further His work. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “God, the Father of us all, uses the men of the earth, especially good men, to accomplish his purposes. It has been true in the past, it is true today, it will be true in the future.

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https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.ph...File/2163/2038

From the link above:

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President Benson
then quoted Elder Orson F. Whitney, who said:

Perhaps the Lord needs such men on the outside of his Church, to help it along. They are among its auxiliaries, and can do more good for the cause where the Lord has placed them, than anywhere else. . . . Hence, some are drawn into the fold and receive a testimony of Truth; while others remain unconverted . . . the beauties and glories of the gospel being veiled temporarily from their view, for a wise purpose. The Lord will open their eyes in his own due time. . . . God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of his great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous for any one people. . . . We have no quarrel with the Gentiles. They are our partners in a certain sense.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Why would God confirm a false book that supports a false religion?

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Good question.

He wouldn't, I don't believe.

I didn't say I got confirmation of the book. I said, I had an experience in regards to the book that I am not too quick to dismiss. Bluntly, there are some truths in the book that stood out for me. I don't know if the Book of Mormon is a true "history" or not. I'm not making that claim.

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Originally Posted by Libby

It teaches McConkie's opinion without any nuance. It says all that you want to hear.

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1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp

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What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What does it teach in this official LDS manual?

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Why do you keep asking? Are you having a difficult time reading it? lol

McConkie's statement, standing alone, is not all that the church teaches on that subject, Billy. As you often tend to do, you are trying to simplify, in order to make a bogus point.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Why do you keep asking? Are you having a difficult time reading it? lol

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I want you to hear it from you. You seem to deny what he is saying.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I want you to hear it from you. You seem to deny what he is saying.

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No, I don't deny that McConkie said that. I deny that the statement, alone, is a full description of what the church teaches on the subject. I know that it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Why do you keep asking? Are you having a difficult time reading it? lol

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Libby---Billyray likes to believe that the members of the LDS church are disjoint in that they read one verse or paragraph and that sums up their whole belief system rather than Mormons have the ability to contextualize and think abstractly regarding their teachings and that what Billyray points to must be seen alone and not in the light of all other teachings.

This is why I like to cut and paste parts of Billyray's comments and come up with what I want it to mean--as that is how he treats our beliefs. But, even when I do this--he doesn't get it.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Libby---Billyray likes to believe that the members of the LDS church are disjoint in that they read one verse or paragraph and that sums up their whole belief system rather than Mormons have the ability to contextualize and think abstractly regarding their teachings and that what Billyray points to must be seen alone and not in the light of all other teachings.

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J do you disagree with BRM's statement?

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Libby---Billyray likes to believe that the members of the LDS church are disjoint in that they read one verse or paragraph and that sums up their whole belief system rather than Mormons have the ability to contextualize and think abstractly regarding their teachings and that what Billyray points to must be seen alone and not in the light of all other teachings.

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Yes, this is exactly how misinformation gets spread. Critics love sound bites that make the church appear weird or to teach things that are actually much more nuanced than you can get from a sound bite....this thing Billy is doing is a perfect example. Unfortunately, some people love this kind of sensationalism and will eat it up...and not bother to investigate further.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, this is exactly how misinformation gets spread. Critics love sound bites that make the church appear weird or to teach things that are actually much more nuanced than you can get from a sound bite....this thing Billy is doing is a perfect example. Unfortunately, some people love this kind of sensationalism and will eat it up...and not bother to investigate further.

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Yes, and it appears that WM has made a fortune on people who love this type of sensationlizism. For this reason I never believe anything negative regarding what I am told about other's beliefs or faiths.

This forum has actually done more to harm my view of evangelicals than anything else. I watch the tactics practiced here and I think---yeah, these are not righteous or wholesome tactics.

And when I watch this whole political election in which "right wing christians' as they are called by the media, run from one candidate to another---I think--this is truly embarr***ing for this group. I wish they could look in the mirror and realize how uneducated they appear. I truly don't know if I ever want to ***ociate myself with such a voting block again. How do I say--yes, there are conservative principles I agree with, but I don't want to be part of this hysteria.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, and it appears that WM has made a fortune on people who love this type of sensationlizism. For this reason I never believe anything negative regarding what I am told about other's beliefs or faiths.

This forum has actually done more to harm my view of evangelicals than anything else. I watch the tactics practiced here and I think---yeah, these are not righteous or wholesome tactics.

And when I watch this whole political election in which "right wing christians' as they are called by the media, run from one candidate to another---I think--this is truly embarr***ing for this group. I wish they could look in the mirror and realize how uneducated they appear. I truly don't know if I ever want to ***ociate myself with such a voting block again. How do I say--yes, there are conservative principles I agree with, but I don't want to be part of this hysteria.

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I agree, the GOP nomination process has become a joke. I keep thinking, are these people really the best they have to offer??? That is sad.

I have heard that there is a lot of money in the anti-Mormon business, but I really don't know. I know some people sell a lot of books and tapes, for sure.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, and it appears that WM has made a fortune on people who love this type of sensationlizism.

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J are you going to answer my question?

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1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp

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J do you disagree with BRM's statement?

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Originally Posted by Libby

. . .Yes, this is exactly how misinformation gets spread....this thing Billy is doing is a perfect example.

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You have no idea what you are talking about Libby and your ***essment is complete bunk.

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1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp

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I am quoting an official LDS publication and I quoted the entire snippet from the link. Are you telling me that you believe that BRM is wrong?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

This is why I like to cut and paste parts of Billyray's comments and come up with what I want it to mean--as that is how he treats our beliefs. But, even when I do this--he doesn't get it.

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Really I don't get it? What I don't get is why you don't accept your own leader's statements. You make up what you want on the fly.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You have no idea what you are talking about Libby and your ***essment is complete bunk.

I am quoting an official LDS publication and I quoted the entire snippet from the link. Are you telling me that you believe that BRM is wrong?

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No, it's not "bunk". You took a quote from one person on a subject that I have already told you has many facets and is much more nuanced than your one quote. I even linked further information, for you, from a BYU publication. I have also told you what I was taught in my Ward. So, it should be clear to you, by now, that you are not giving a broad enough view of the issue.

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Originally Posted by Libby

No, it's not "bunk". You took a quote from one person on a subject that I have already told you has many facets and is much more nuanced than your one quote.

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So you disagree with the quote?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I have also told you what I was taught in my Ward.

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Who cares what you were taught in your ward. Do you really think the Joe Smoes in your ward trump an official published document by the LDS church?

Did you bother to read the link I posted or the excerpts, Billy? There is plenty of corroboration for what I was taught. You just don't seem to want to see it.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Did you bother to read the link I posted or the excerpts, Billy? There is plenty of corroboration for what I was taught. You just don't seem to want to see it.

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Don't keep changing the subject Libby. Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Don't keep changing the subject Libby. Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

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Why do you care? I disagree with the quote and with what I was taught about the two churches. I don't believe any of it.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Why do you care?

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Because you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Because you are wrong.

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In your opinion.

You are wrong to try and simplify subjects that are actually very complex.

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Originally Posted by Libby

In your opinion.

You are wrong to try and simplify subjects that are actually very complex.

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Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

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Originally Posted by Libby

You are wrong to try and simplify subjects that are actually very complex.

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BTW what is so complex with the concept of two churches?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you disagree with BRM's quote?

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On a personal level, I absolutely disagree.

From an LDS perspective, it is incomplete, at best.

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Originally Posted by Libby

From an LDS perspective, it is incomplete, at best.

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Incomplete in what way?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

BTW what is so complex with the concept of two churches?

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Oh my. Go back and read this whole conversation, again.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Oh my. Go back and read this whole conversation, again.

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It is not complex at all in my opinion that is why I am asking you.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

It is not complex at all in my opinion that is why I am asking you.

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Of course it isn't, from your perspective, because you want to use one little quote from BRM as absolute and irrefutable "doctrine" of the church. As I said, that doesn't fly....on most subjects, not just this one.

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Originally Posted by Libby

As I said, that doesn't fly....on most subjects, not just this one.

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It doesn't fly with you so that is why I am asking you what is so complex about this subject?

I think, perhaps, if you go back and read the entire discussion (and my link), again, you will see the complexity.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I think, perhaps, if you go back and read the entire discussion (and my link), again, you will see the complexity.

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Why don't you just tell me why you think it is so complex?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Why don't you just tell me why you think it is so complex?

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Why should I take the time and trouble, when you, apparently, have not taken the time and trouble to read my previous explanations?

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Originally Posted by Libby

Why should I take the time and trouble, when you, apparently, have not taken the time and trouble to read my previous explanations?

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Don't bother Libby. It really isn't that complex and you are just playing games with me.