Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are absolutely wrong and you haven't shown me anything to prove otherwise.

And we ave a quote from a LDS leader from an official LDS publication that proves you wrong. But you are too stubborn to admit your error.

---

I think you are the one who is being stubborn, refusing to allow only the one quote you provided as any sort of "proof".

I really think this discussion is at an end.

Merry Christmas, Billy.

[QUOTE=BigJulie;101614]

Quote:

---

Which is why so many Protestants at one point were put to death, as well as the men who translated the Bible to English--because the "Christian" church at that time thought that what they were doing was heretical.

I guess you are just the next in th line to claim they are the one who protects the "religion" and the "correct view".

That said, it might be worth noting that the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew.

---

The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only son,
that none that believe in him,
should perish:
but should have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life.
—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?

[QUOTE=Apologette;116853]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only son,
that none that believe in him,
should perish:
but should have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life.
—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?

---

So, do you know what the word "only" means in Hebrew? (No, it doesn't give Mormons a problem at all---but it should give you a problem ;))

Here is an example:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Was Isaac, Abraham's ONLY son?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jill

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.

---

No this thread is about a 501c trying to influence the outcome of a Presidential race.

As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

I see his religion as a non-issue.

I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

Shame on anyone who would....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

I see his religion as a non-issue.

I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

Shame on anyone who would....

---

There is a reason for the three branches of Gov't. Some have suggested that he will turn over America to Thomas S Mason, and by so doing lose all credibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

No this thread is about a 501c trying to influence the outcome of a Presidential race.

---

I completely and utterly agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

I see his religion as a non-issue.

I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

Shame on anyone who would....

---

But Alan, you seem to have a bias against Romney that you don't recognize. It seems that you will trust someone like Newt when he says he has changed, but not Romney.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

There is a reason for the three branches of Gov't. Some have suggested that he will turn over America to Thomas S Mason, and by so doing lose all credibility.

---

FEAR ...is a poor subs***ute for reason...

This country is founded on an idea that all men are created equal.
And that we have governments in order to protect the equality of men.

The moment we say that These other type of people ( Mormons, Catholic, Buddhist, etc), have less right to be elected because of their very personal,private faith we spit on the very things this country should stand for.

If we have a dream and a lasting goal in this country about how each generation of Americans picks it's leaders, let that dream and goal be that we can teach every child that they have just as much right to grow up and become the President as anyone else, regardless of race, creed or color...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigJulie

But Alan, you seem to have a bias against Romney that you don't recognize. It seems that you will trust someone like Newt when he says he has changed, but not Romney.

---

I believe Mitt Romney is a political pros***ute, and that he panders to whatever people or special interest group that he is currently in front of, and that I think his many flip-flops on important issues like ABORTION, and health care should bar him from representing my Conservative Party.....

None the less I do not hold his religion or his views about God and Jesus Christ to be revelant to my voting for him or against him.

I would gladly vote AGAINST Mitt Romney , on political grounds.

I would gladly vote for a bag of dirt rather that Mitt on Political grounds....

But on religious grounds I find no reason to not vote for him ...

I do not hold the personal life or the personal views of people against them when I enter into the voting booth.

It's the same to me as hiring a guy to fix the roof.

I do not care if the guy who wants to fix my roof is a good Christian or a good Mormon, or a Buddhist...
I do not care if the roofer has been married to only one wife, or has been married and divorced 7 times...

I only care that the guy knows how to fix my roof...


(I do remember that Walter Martin said the same as what I am saying during a answer he gave on his show dealing with the fact that many Christian proLife groups were working with many other religions)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe Mitt Romney is a political pros***ute, and that he panders to whatever people or special interest group that he is currently in front of, and that I think his many flip-flops on important issues like ABORTION, and health care should bar him from representing my Conservative Party.....

None the less I do not hold his religion or his views about God and Jesus Christ to be revelant to my voting for him or against him.

I would gladly vote AGAINST Mitt Romney , on political grounds.

I would gladly vote for a bag of dirt rather that Mitt on Political grounds....

But on religious grounds I find no reason to not vote for him ...

I do not hold the personal life or the personal views of people against them when I enter into the voting booth.

It's the same to me as hiring a guy to fix the roof.

I do not care if the guy who wants to fix my roof is a good Christian or a good Mormon, or a Buddhist...
I do not care if the roofer has been married to only one wife, or has been married and divorced 7 times...

I only care that the guy knows how to fix my roof...


(I do remember that Walter Martin said the same as what I am saying during a answer he gave on his show dealing with the fact that many Christian proLife groups were working with many other religions)

---

But, the way you defended Newt in spite of some of the terrible things he has done---not to mention supporting mandates, ethical violations, etc---the way you defend someone who has obvious problems and then attack Mitt for far less problems, well, it appears that their religious affiliations does affect your trust for what they say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigJulie

.... it appears that their religious affiliations does affect your trust for what they say.

---

That that feeling of yours is yet another place where you are in error....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

That that feeling of yours is yet another place where you are in error....

---

I wish it was that obvious to me. If I saw consistency---where bad behavior of all were judged the same...instead of forgiveness of one, but not of another. It comes across as bias.

The reason I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney is that I share the same deep-seated feeling of mistrust about the guy's views as to most Republican conservatives.

There is just something politically slimy about the guy.

His refusal to join with other Republicans and the Pro-Life cause during this election at the 4 different pro-life forums that all the other candidates attended, leads me to believe that he simply will not go to the mat for anything.

Rather, when I look at Mitt Romney what I see is a guy who is a modern political version of Elmer Gantry .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The reason I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney is that I share the same deep-seated feeling of mistrust about the guy's views as to most Republican conservatives.

There is just something politically slimy about the guy.

His refusal to join with other Republicans and the Pro-Life cause during this election at the 4 different pro-life forums that all the other candidates attended, leads me to believe that he simply will not go to the mat for anything.

Rather, when I look at Mitt Romney what I see is a guy who is a modern political version of Elmer Gantry .

---

But, on the basis you give, you should also have a deep-seated mistrust of Newt- or even Rick Santorum who was voted one of the most unethical politicians in Washington (in the top three)--which you haven't shown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigJulie

But, on the basis you give, you should also have a deep-seated mistrust of Newt- or even Rick Santorum who was voted one of the most unethical politicians in Washington (in the top three)--which you haven't shown.

---

This topic is not about Newt or Rick, or Paul, or Sarah Palin...

It's about Mitt Romney....
and it's about the faith that Mitt claims.

Now on his faith I consider Mitt to be a poor lost soul.
If I were judging Mitt Romney on the teachings of his religion, then he is one big pile of stinking "Fail"

But even if that is what i think of his faith, i still do not hold that against him when i enter into the voting booth.

When i vote for someone, I put aside all the other side issues like the person person faith, their marriage troubles, there sex tapes or their speeding tickets ...

I judge them only on their political track record and how they strike me as being a good spokesman for the issues that I care about.


And lets face it.....on the social issues, Mitt didnt even try.
At the 4 pro-Life forums, all we saw was an empty chair.

hard to put a good spin on that kids....LOL:D


And you cant get people to vote "for" someone by just claiming "They other guy is worse"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This topic is not about Newt or Rick, or Paul, or Sarah Palin...

It's about Mitt Romney....
and it's about the faith that Mitt claims.

Now on his faith I consider Mitt to be a poor lost soul.
If I were judging Mitt Romney on the teachings of his religion, then he is one big pile of stinking "Fail"

But even if that is what i think of his faith, i still do not hold that against him when i enter into the voting booth.

When i vote for someone, I put aside all the other side issues like the person person faith, their marriage troubles, there sex tapes or their speeding tickets ...

I judge them only on their political track record and how they strike me as being a good spokesman for the issues that I care about.


And lets face it.....on the social issues, Mitt didnt even try.
At the 4 pro-Life forums, all we saw was an empty chair.

hard to put a good spin on that kids....LOL:D


And you cant get people to vote "for" someone by just claiming "They other guy is worse"

---

So you vote strictly on pro-life issues...is that it? Didn't Rick vote for Planned Parenthood?

"GOP presidential hopeful Rick Santorum is under fire in South Carolina for touting his alleged pro-life beliefs but voting to subsidize abortion and Planned Parenthood, the largest provider of abortions in America, while serving in the U.S. Senate. He has also vigorously backed pro-abortion candidates against pro-lifers. Critics are outraged."

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/pol...ned-parenthood

Do you realize that Rick Santorum has also flip-flopped on the abortion issue:

"“Rep. Doug Walgren, D-Mt. Lebanon, yesterday accused his Republican opponent, Rick Santorum, of switching positions to become an anti-abortion candidate in hopes of gaining political advantage...

“[Santorum] said he did a lot of research and soul searching and determined that he was most comfortable with a firm position against abortion...

“ "I can't give you an exact date when I arrived at a position. So it was a gradual evolution, I guess."

“He flatly denied he was motivated by politics.”


Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Nov 3, 1990

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

And you cant get people to vote "for" someone by just claiming "They other guy is worse"

---

some people miss this last part of my post I guess.....:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

some people miss this last part of my post I guess.....:D

---

Nope, my point isn't at all the Rick S. is worse, but merely that you seem to forgive one candidate over the other and rail on one candidate but not the other. Why?

Again......
My huge distrust for Mitt Romney is based on what I see as his being a political pros***ute in his political stands.

I dont trust him
Conservatives dont trust him...

....not only for the things he did years ago..

I dont trust him for the things he has done to stab the pro-Life cause in the back DURING THIS ELECTION!>

So what Im saying is that Mitt is right now, currently doing the complete wrong thing from my political point of view.

Mitt Wrongney has went out of his way during this election to insult the pro-life cause
Now when I add this insult of his to the fact that he has a well known history of flip-flops of the Abortion issue, then that seals the deal as far as Im concerned...


This means that while I would never hold Mitt's religion against him, I would yet for purely political reasons rather vote for a bag of dirt for President than vote for Romney.....:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Again......
My huge distrust for Mitt Romney is based on what I see as his being a political pros***ute in his political stands.

---

Well he in politics and running for office, of Pope or Prophet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Well he in politics and running for office, of Pope or Prophet.

---

I dont understand this comment....

is this a question?

Mitt Romney is running for President.
The office of President is a political matter, and I will judge who I will vote for on only political matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont understand this comment....

is this a question?

Mitt Romney is running for President.
The office of President is a political matter, and I will judge who I will vote for on only political matters.

---

I was agreeing with but let out a word which did make it confusing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I was agreeing with but let out a word which did make it confusing.

---

Theo was speaking of tolerance of false beliefs. In fact, didn't Theo say he'd vote for the best man regardless of his relgious beliefs? I believe he did. Seems you are maligning a Christian here.

?:confused:

Alan, I think PaPa was agreeing with you and Apologette was confused and so took another stab. *sigh*

Looks like Romney is going to get the GOP nomination.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apologette

Theo was speaking of tolerance of false beliefs. In fact, didn't Theo say he'd vote for the best man regardless of his relgious beliefs? I believe he did. Seems you are maligning a Christian here.

---

Alanmolstad is Theo? Again with the many names and accounts.

So, any more comments on the political front? Who do people think is going to win in a few weeks?? Its going to be interesting for sure.

I don't think Romney will win. The electoral votes are overwhelmingly in favor of Obama.

Even yoda did not try to predict the future ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Libby

All I'm saying, Billy, is that the LDS Church allows others the ***le of "Christian"....they don't try to say that, those with whom they disagree, are not Christian. At least, not the contemporary LDS Church. I'm sure you can dig something up from the past that will have someone saying differently.

---

The only reason that Mormonism "allow others the ***le of Christian" is because they think it allows Mormonism to hopelessly appear to be Christian, but we will not allow that here. There is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism. That is a fact that you have to live with and accept, otherwise you are not ever going to be able to have a sound understanding of just what Christianity is.

Jill is correct in saying that Romney is being deceitful by claiming to be Christian. Romney claiming to be Christian makes him a liar and who wants a self confessed liar for president of this country?

The other choice is a joke also, so this is a tough election.

It would help Romney's case if he would just admit that he is Mormon and there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism.

One of the main issues that proves that Mormonism is not Christian and therefore a false "religion" is found in Luke 16:16 (and other places) where Jesus said that the Law and the Prophets ended with John the Baptist and when we consider the fact that the Law and the Prophets were established so Jesus could come to the earth and go to the Cross to die for our sins and make things right with those who believe and God.....the ones that God calls and adopts into His Glorious Kingdom and being that Jesus accomplished what He came here to do there is no longer a need for the Law or the Prophets and that makes Smith a false prophet.

Now we have Jesus as the mediator between God and mankind and being that Jesus is alive forevermore and the one and only holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood........the only Priesthood that God has in operation since Pentecost......there is no need or place in God's plan of Salvation for mankind for Prophets. The kind of prophet that Smith claimed to be was simply done away with, with the p***ing of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New Covenant.

It simply is not about us Holy, Righteous, Blessed Christians disagreeing with Mormonism; it is about the fact that God says that there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism, so Romney just looks foolish by claiming to be Christian when the facts refute him and nothing he can say or do will ever change that fact unless of course he repents, asks God for forgiveness and God calls him and adopts him into His Glorious Kingdom.

But Romney is so steeped into Mormonism and I see him telling lie after lie and flip-flopping on the things he claims he will do as president, I doubt if he will ever come into the Truth and renounce Mormonism. Sad to say, but it appears that his fate is sealed and he will most likely end up in the Lake of Fire along side his god, Joe Smith and company of all the Mormon false prophets and false apostles.

Brother Andrew

The religion of Mitt Romney is of no concern to us as we look at who to be the next President.

i believe it is even wrong of us to try to use a test of a person's religion as a guide as to what person would be better as president.

I also believe that a lot of liberals are now busy in different ways to attempt to raise this issue among the Christians that support Mitt in an effort to get them to not vote for him.


I can only speak for myself, and what I say is that I will vote for Mitt, and hope and pray he wins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The religion of Mitt Romney is of no concern to us as we look at who to be the next President.

i believe it is even wrong of us to try to use a test of a person's religion as a guide as to what person would be better as president.

I also believe that a lot of liberals are now busy in different ways to attempt to raise this issue among the Christians that support Mitt in an effort to get them to not vote for him.


I can only speak for myself, and what I say is that I will vote for Mitt, and hope and pray he wins.

---

Yeah I know. This is like choosing whether you want to vote for someone who can at least get the ball rolling towards recovery or someone else who can cause the whole situation to go off like the Tsar-Bomba.

Well, Romney lost. Comments? Concerns?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Well, Romney lost. Comments? Concerns?

---

Not at all surprised that Romney lost. One needs only to wonder if God would allow a member of a church that has so many unscriptual, not to mention even some blasphemous teachings, to be president of the USA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Again......
My huge distrust for Mitt Romney is based on what I see as his being a political pros***ute in his political stands.

I dont trust him
Conservatives dont trust him...

....not only for the things he did years ago..

I dont trust him for the things he has done to stab the pro-Life cause in the back DURING THIS ELECTION!>

So what Im saying is that Mitt is right now, currently doing the complete wrong thing from my political point of view.

Mitt Wrongney has went out of his way during this election to insult the pro-life cause
Now when I add this insult of his to the fact that he has a well known history of flip-flops of the Abortion issue, then that seals the deal as far as Im concerned...

---

I think when the people in this race or who gave advice to people in this race all sit down and start to write their books on this election, that there is going to come out a story of why Mitt turned his back on the Republican Conservative base, and simply did not make any appeals on conservative issues like Abortion...

Right now the way Mitt ran his campain it's like he wanted to run as a Dem...

Mitt seems to have run on an "dont talk about abortion" platform...
Mitt tried to keep his run centered on the state of the economy and that hurt him because by election day all the TV news reports were that "Things are getting better" (as I predicted by the way)

This means that by the end of the election Mitt really had no real reason left for anyone to vote for him....


The lesson here is this -

The Republican Party had a strong conservative push at the start of this going into Iowa.
The problem for the conservatives was that due to the great number of Conservatives in the race going into Iowa the convervative vote was split between 6 or more different names.

That left the more liberal Republicans with only Mitt to vote for.

So the great number of conservatives killed their chance to represent the vasy majority of the party.....and so a guy that the conservatives didnt like kept willing and willing as time after time the conservative vote was split.


and that is how Mitt got the lead spot on the ticket....

and that hints what is the best way to fix this too....and that is to work things in such a way as to have only one top conservative left in the race going into Iowa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jill

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.

---

Calling someone who believes in Christ, no-Christian is the least Christian thing someone who believes in Christ can do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Calling someone who believes in Christ, no-Christian is the least Christian thing someone who believes in Christ can do.

---

I have asked this before and was never answered. I am serious..

So if I go to Home Depot and buy a Garden Gnome, name it Jesus and proscribe all the Biblical stories of Jesus to that lawn art, am I a Christian because I teach that it is Jesus? Does it matter what I believe Jesus to be? How about a Ghost that lives in my basement closet? Would I be a Christian saying that He is Jesus and He was created by my garden gnome for doing everything the Garden Gnome wanted done?

Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of the Father do they not? And that the Father is a being of flesh and Bone as tangible as man's? That Jesus became a God through obedience to Laws and ordinances of the gospel? But neither the Garden Gnome, nor the Ghost in the closet are Jesus now are they? Neither is a created god, the son of another created gods that mormonism holds to be the Father, and the Son. A Christian believes in the Jesus of the Bible, who is God.. Mormonism denies that and those that accept such a lie are not Christians.. IHS jim

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have asked this before and was never answered. I am serious..

So if I go to Home Depot and buy a Garden Gnome, name it Jesus and proscribe all the Biblical stories of Jesus to that lawn art, am I a Christian because I teach that it is Jesus? Does it matter what I believe Jesus to be? How about a Ghost that lives in my basement closet? Would I be a Christian saying that He is Jesus and He was created by my garden gnome for doing everything the Garden Gnome wanted done?

Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of the Father do they not? And that the Father is a being of flesh and Bone as tangible as man's? That Jesus became a God through obedience to Laws and ordinances of the gospel? But neither the Garden Gnome, nor the Ghost in the closet are Jesus now are they? Neither is a created god, the son of another created gods that mormonism holds to be the Father, and the Son. A Christian believes in the Jesus of the Bible, who is God.. Mormonism denies that and those that accept such a lie are not Christians.. IHS jim

---

Well, let's discuss what Mormons believe Christ is.

First, His nature has always been God. Meaning, the part of him that is eternal has always been and always will be the same. (We each have our own natures that are unique to us and eternal---which is why we sin and why our sins are not Gods fault or his creation or a flaw in us he created.)

Second, He is the Son of God. He came to earth, had a mortal body, died and was resurrected and still has a glorified exalted body.

Third, He died to redeem us from the Fall. His death justified the law. Or in other words, because we all fell like Adam, His life allows us to rise again.

Fourth, He is the judge in Israel and we will stand before Him and be judged "according to our works"--whether they are good or evil. As Christ has paid the price and because he knows us fully, he will judge us fairly and justly.