Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Well, let's discuss what Mormons believe Christ is.

First, His nature has always been God. Meaning, the part of him that is eternal has always been and always will be the same. (We each have our own natures that are unique to us and eternal---which is why we sin and why our sins are not Gods fault or his creation or a flaw in us he created.)

Why do your Church leaders teach that Jesus had to "attain" godhood in pre-mortal life:

"Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." The Gospel Through the Ages; Deseret Book Co. 1945, p.51

and

"Christ the Word, the First born, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence." What the Mormons Think of Christ; LDS publication, p.36

Second, He is the Son of God. He came to earth, had a mortal body, died and was resurrected and still has a glorified exalted body.

However, in Mormon belief all men are "sons of the Mormon deity." Jesus just happened to be born first, right? Satan was born second. Making them spirit brothers, right? Romney, by the way danced around that doctrine and covered it up when asked.

Third, He died to redeem us from the Fall. His death justified the law. Or in other words, because we all fell like Adam, His life allows us to rise again.

In Mormonism, Jesus died to give you the opportunity to earn full salvation. General salvation is said to be resurrection and no faith is required for that.

Fourth, He is the judge in Israel and we will stand before Him and be judged "according to our works"--whether they are good or evil. As Christ has paid the price and because he knows us fully, he will judge us fairly and justly.

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I thought you believed that Joseph Smith was King over Israel. According to Brigham Young, no man can enter the Celestial Kingdom without Smith's permission. If you want to be judged by your works, go right ahead. I ask for mercy and grace. Remember all your righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight.

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Originally Posted by Apologette

I thought you believed that Joseph Smith was King over Israel. According to Brigham Young, no man can enter the Celestial Kingdom without Smith's permission. If you want to be judged by your works, go right ahead. I ask for mercy and grace. Remember all your righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight.

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Apologette, I would really appreciate if you would learn to use the site so that you are not putting your ocmments into my posts (by bolding). It really isn't hard to learn to do.

And you know---if you really want to learn our gospel and understand it correctly, you really need to learn to site our scriptures--which I notice you never do.

I am wondering how many Christians, now seeing what has happened with the Supreme Court under Obama, still believe Mitt Romney would not have chosen Justices who were more aligned with their beliefs and values or more aligned with their own Christian values. What point did you really win or make by judging Romney not to be a Christian?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am wondering how many Christians, now seeing what has happened with the Supreme Court under Obama, still believe Mitt Romney would not have chosen Justices who were more aligned with their beliefs and values or more aligned with their own Christian values. What point did you really win or make by judging Romney not to be a Christian?

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Mitt is not a Christian...thats case-closed..

But I had no political issues with his run for office.
But Mitt ran a ****py run for President.
he time after time went out of his way to stab Conservative causes in the back,

Even as he was doing this I would post here that he was not going to win with his style...

mitt was not happy attracting traditional voters, and so he tried to run more to the left...

Mitt had no "issue" that he was running on...He never came up with a cause that Conservative Christians could believe he would go to the mat to get done...

The flaws of Mitt's run have been learned and in this election you do see everyone who is leading (mostly Trump) getting issues that they are connected to.

The one guy who ran just like Mitt ran was Bush.

Bush ran the very same way that Mitt ran, and Bush would be leading at this point had he had an issue..

But Bush ran like Mitt, and so lost like Mitt....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mitt is not a Christian...thats case-closed..

But I had no political issues with his run for office.
But Mitt ran a ****py run for President.
he time after time went out of his way to stab Conservative causes in the back,

Even as he was doing this I would post here that he was not going to win with his style...

mitt was not happy attracting traditional voters, and so he tried to run more to the left...

Mitt had no "issue" that he was running on...He never came up with a cause that Conservative Christians could believe he would go to the mat to get done...

The flaws of Mitt's run have been learned and in this election you do see everyone who is leading (mostly Trump) getting issues that they are connected to.

The one guy who ran just like Mitt ran was Bush.

Bush ran the very same way that Mitt ran, and Bush would be leading at this point had he had an issue..

But Bush ran like Mitt, and so lost like Mitt....

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Interesting viewpoint Alan--especially given what was on the line considering the Court.

Interesting as well that evangelicals in South Carolina came out to support Trump.

My conclusion--evangelicals would vote for someone who has cheated on his wives, has supported pro-abortion adamantly, called just about every other group some type of demeaning name including put-downs to women and minorities rather than to vote for someone they can't 'connect' with.

So, if I understand it correctly--evangelicals can "connect" with a man who has no morals and lambastes everyone who is not part of his group. Kind of like this forum. I get it now.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Interesting viewpoint Alan--especially given what was on the line considering the Court.

Interesting as well that evangelicals in South Carolina came out to support Trump.

My conclusion--evangelicals would vote for someone who has cheated on his wives, has supported pro-abortion adamantly, called just about every other group some type of demeaning name including put-downs to women and minorities rather than to vote for someone they can't 'connect' with.

So, if I understand it correctly--evangelicals can "connect" with a man who has no morals and lambastes everyone who is not part of his group. Kind of like this forum. I get it now.

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Trump understands that Mitt never did,and what Bush also failed to do....
Trump plays to what the conservatives of the Republican party have on their minds...

Remember Mitt never once wanted to be even called conservative"...
He had his minions one day protesting the term, the next day painting Mitt with it..

So Mitt just was never the true conservatives guy because Mitt did not want to be connected with conservative concerns.

This year...Trump has become the only guy that is truly saying the things that the conservatives want said...

everyone else running on the Republican side is saying, "Lets not make this about religion"
Trump is saying, "Ban the Muslims!"


Everyone else is saying, "Lets have a way to make new people become Americans"

Trump is saying, "Build a wall"



Mitt ever say "Build a wall"?



I dont think so.



Yet alot of people still try to blame the conservatives why Mitt lost, but the truth is, Mitt was warned over and over that by playing to the Left he was walking away from the issues that Conservatives care about...

But Mitt thought that playing to the Left would make him loved by the Liberals and they would vote for him.

Mitt played to the Left.
The conservatives found no reason to vote for him.
Mitt lost the vote of conservatives because he was aiming at getting the Liberal vote to cover the loss.

the Liberals voted for the other guy...



So dont blame the conservatives for the loss of Mitt....and dont try to blame anyone except Bush now for the way Bush failed when he ran with Mitt's playbook...

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Kind of like this forum. I get it now.

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we shall see how you get it.....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Trump understands that Mitt never did,and what Bush also failed to do....
Trump plays to what the conservatives of the Republican party have on their minds...

Remember Mitt never once wanted to be even called conservative"...
He had his minions one day protesting the term, the next day painting Mitt with it..

So Mitt just was never the true conservatives guy because Mitt did not want to be connected with conservative concerns.

This year...Trump has become the only guy that is truly saying the things that the conservatives want said...

everyone else running on the Republican side is saying, "Lets not make this about religion"
Trump is saying, "Ban the Muslims!"


Everyone else is saying, "Lets have a way to make new people become Americans"

Trump is saying, "Build a wall"



Mitt ever say "Build a wall"?



I dont think so.



Yet alot of people still try to blame the conservatives why Mitt lost, but the truth is, Mitt was warned over and over that by playing to the Left he was walking away from the issues that Conservatives care about...

But Mitt thought that playing to the Left would make him loved by the Liberals and they would vote for him.

Mitt played to the Left.
The conservatives found no reason to vote for him.
Mitt lost the vote of conservatives because he was aiming at getting the Liberal vote to cover the loss.

the Liberals voted for the other guy...



So dont blame the conservatives for the loss of Mitt....and dont try to blame anyone except Bush now for the way Bush failed when he ran with Mitt's playbook...

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Ban the Muslims--Build a wall. Yes, you are making my point exactly. I am beginning to understand that what I see in this forum reflects the thinking of evangelical Christians and why they couldn't support Romney or Jeb Bush. Yes, they couldn't get behind them because they want someone who they can "connect" with and reflects their values. And their values are ones of exclusivity and of stereotyping.

I can't get behind Trump because he has lead a life of immorality and self-centeredness. The way he speaks to others is rude and he does not look for solutions that speak to understanding, but rather uses sensationalism to engage those who are driven by fear and talking points.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I can't get behind Trump....

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I never said Trump is my man...
But I can not find anyone elses running that understands what conservatives are seeking to hear.
There are great Christians in this election still....men who have good history with both god and women that they dont hide...and who know how to quote the bible.

The problem is that while they might be far better "Christians"they have missed the boat as far as understanding the conservatives and the need conservatives have for someone to address their issues.

Trump is in the lead because he speaks to the concerns the conservatives have...





So lets just take a look at what this election fight is really...and who is in this fight?

This is a battle between the "Old Guard" in both Parties and their younger movements.

Both the Dems and the Republicans have had the Old Guard push their person out to the front and both Parties have seen the people reject that person.

The Bernie guy is only still getting votes because most dems want "Anyone but her"

The Republican Old Guard pushed Bush out early and expected him to walk over the field.

But the people rose up against the God Guard and its hand-picked person and found other people to support.





Now as far as not being able to support one guy over others yet?...thats normal.
The field is stiff full of other players...and there is no need to say that you only have one horse in this race....

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

......... this forum reflects the thinking of evangelical Christians .

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Any forum reflects the people who post there...
This forum reflects the people that stop and post here the most......

Over the years we have had big number posters who posted tons and tons of posts every day , and naturally the forum reflected their personal interests as far as choice of topics goes...

My advice is that if you don't like the topics currently running then rather than just complaining that they are not of interest to you and criticizing the few people who are posting new things to look at why not post a new topic yourself?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Any forum reflects the people who post there...
This forum reflects the people that stop and post here the most......

Over the years we have had big number posters who posted tons and tons of posts every day , and naturally the forum reflected their personal interests as far as choice of topics goes...

My advice is that if you don't like the topics currently running then rather than just complaining that they are not of interest to you and criticizing the few people who are posting new things to look at why not post a new topic yourself?

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I posted this under "Family Values" as a reply to your post. I think it is more appropriate here:

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I think you explained it best when you noted that Christians like the immoral and rude Trump because he will state 'ban the Muslims" and "build the wall" when the other candidates will not. It made it very clear to me that the sensationalizing, exclusionary viewpoints I see in this forum is also seen within the political arena. It seems acceptable to Christians to sensationalize, stereotype and exclude in this forum and within politics.

I personally prefer candidates who speak with pragmatism and sensitivity recognizing that stereotyping and exclusion will not solve our problems. I find it interesting that those who support gun rights (which I do) seem to understand that we do not want to change our fundamental values based on the actions of a few--which has been sensationalized in the news. Yet, when it comes to those who are outside their own group, they are more than willing to throw out of values in the name of security.

I think it is precisely this exclusionary stance that cost Mitt the election and is winning it for Trump.

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Yes, this forum is more of a reflection of the overall values than I supposed--as I can see the same-type of thinking running into the election.

I am not complaining--merely observing.

A forum is not a living thing.
It's just a bunch of people who write things.
If you don't like the list of topics? Start one you do like.

How people complain about this forum and not have started a new topic in weeks or months?

This forum is only a "reflection" of the many, many different people that visit.
And I guess, whining is also part of that "reflection" .

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

A forum is not a living thing.
It's just a bunch of people who write things.
If you don't like the list of topics? Start one you do like.

How people complain about this forum and not have started a new topic in weeks or months?

This forum is only a "reflection" of the many, many different people that visit.
And I guess, whining is also part of that "reflection" .

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Yes, I agree completely. This forum is just a reflection of many people's viewpoint who visit. I am not whining--just observing that this forum represents more of "christianity" than I supposed. I would never guess that christians would support someone who immoral and divisive as Trump..and yet they do. Sad that they could not support Romney because he was not conservative enough and not representative of them enough. Also sad that this same demographic could support Trump as someone they can "connect to (your words).

I kept thinking Trump would not get far because of how he treats others. I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, I agree completely. This forum is just a reflection of many people's viewpoint who visit. I am not whining--just observing that this forum represents more of "christianity" than I supposed. I would never guess that christians would support someone who immoral and divisive as Trump..and yet they do. Sad that they could not support Romney because he was not conservative enough and not representative of them enough. Also sad that this same demographic could support Trump as someone they can "connect to (your words).

I kept thinking Trump would not get far because of how he treats others. I was wrong.

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Mitt seemed to think conservatives would automatically support him so he didn't need to say things we liked to hear. ..

Trump says things we like to hear..

Case closed

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mitt seemed to think conservatives would automatically support him so he didn't need to say things we liked to hear. ..

Trump says things we like to hear..

Case closed

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Trump doesn't say things I want to hear--kill the wives and children of terrorists? No, this isn't something I want to hear.

So, Trump is now the nominee. This is a man who "connects" with evangelicals?

Trump: Flip-flops on his past positions, is an adulterer, womanizer, chauvinist, racist, supports violence, is exclusive of others not like him, and is egotistical. Is this really the person you can connect with?

well.....Mitt Romney is....not in the news today.

This is actually a big deal as for a while there Mitt Romney was in the running for being Trump's new Sec Of State.

We all saw the videos and photos of Mitt going to meat Trump and then a day or so later we saw Trump take Mitt out to dinner.

The web was filled with guys who said that it sure looked like Mitt was going to get the ***.

But....that did not happen.



Now its time to back-up and ask, "What was really going on?"

And here is my answer for what i think is the answer.



lets start off at, the start of this whole election.
Mitt had lost to Obama, but Mitt also had a lot of money saved and was thinking about getting in this time.
Mitt Romney was building a bunch of people around him that were sent out to the TV talk shows to push the idea that it was Mitt's time.

We should now also remember that the guy who was at the time ahead in the polls was Jeb Bush.
Remember that at the start of this election that Bush was seen as the likely guy to win?
Remember how Bush had over $100 million?

Well Bush did not want Romney to get into the race so Bush called Romney and they had this big meeting down there in Florida.
what happened there is , that Bush talked Mitt out of getting into the race on the promise that when Bush had won that Bush would turn around and offer the VP position or the position of Sec Of State to Romney.....

While Romney wanted to be on the ticket, he wanted more to be Sec Of State.

So Romney agreed to not get into the race and also to support Bush so that later he would be offered whatever *** he wanted.


Then....as time went on.....Bush turned out to be a big sack of FAIL.
Mitt Romney had to sit on the sidelines and watch Trump win and win, and win.

Romney never liked Trump and so Mitt started to do whatever he could to help bring down Trump.

Nothing worked.

trrump kept winning and it was getting close to the end of the primaries, so this is when Mitt Romney went to the Party leadership and told them that if at the convention they would allow Mitt's name to be entered in to the ring after the 1st vote, that he would agree to come out in a speech strongly against Trump.

The Party leadership agreed, and so Mitt Romney made the speech where he said everything he could to convince the whole Party to do whatever it needed to do, to stop Trump.

Then the convention came....Mitt made his final attempt to get the Party to change the rules and allow his name to be added to the list.

But that failed.

Trump won the ticket....and Mitt Romney came away with nothing.

Romney watched with hope that trump would lose to Clinton.

But trump won.

Mitt Romney wanted still to be sec of State, so Mitt approached the Party leadership once again and convinced them to call Trump and ask Trump to interview Romney for a position.

Trump wanted to mend fences with some of the guys in Washington, so Trump agreed and Mitt showed up at trump Tower looking for a ***.

In an effort to make sure the everyone in the Party leadership would feel that trump gave Mitt a fair chance, Trump and Romney went to dinner and made sure this was seen on Tv by the world.

Romney by the time he left the dinner table knew this was a lost effort, and that once again he was going to end up with zero.



and thats where things stand now for Mitt Romney.
After all this time, after all the meetings and the promises, after all the speeches after all the work Mitt put into getting an important ***....he got nothing.




So whats happening right now with Mitt?
The answer is that Mitt Romney is pulling all the strings he can to get a position in the Party.
Mitt wants to end up with some gain for all the he has done.
Mitt also has sent out his people to try to get Mitt's name on the list for other lower ***s but still as part of the new Administration.

So the one main target Mitt has in mind now is an amb***ador position.and is instructing his people to bring up his name in connection with China and or RUSSIA.