Grace Controversy!

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actually within the plan of god for me, there is a perfect union of his sovereignty and my free will....his rule of the universe took into account my ability to respond to him...

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Within the sovereignty of God, man has total free will. God made man a free moral agent. All are free to be save in accordance with God’s plan and all are free to remain in their sins.

men are trapped in time, god is not,

Before the creation of the universe, god already saw me,,,(as clearly as he can see me now , and see me at my death, ) ......he already saw me with him in eternal glory after the resurrection.


And this is not just by my decision or by accident....for God had already chosen me personalty to be saved.

Nothing was left to chance,

Nothing was left in doubt...

Nothing was left for me to do....

Nothing was left up to me to decide.





God was not just reacting to what God saw happen in the ending.....NO!.....God alone was the soul cause and lone author of my salvation!!!!!!

Look at the text you quoted -

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.







It comes down to the sovereignty of God....
This is to me, the fact that God decided my fate.
Not me.


God picked me to be saved....I did not decide this.

I did not choose to be a friend of God, he decided to be my friend.



God picked me by name, before the universe was made.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.[/B]
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The list of verses you quote are also what Walter quotes in the video I posted...

so to sum it up-



There are two things going on at the same time that while very different, they are yet able to be in perfect union.


These are the two things-
#1 - the sovereignty of God.
#2 - the ability if man to respond within his human free will.


Now at first glance these two things will always appear to be in conflict. And it truth if you are looking for an easy to understand system that will clearly define how they can be in perfect union you are going to be disappointed.
The disappointment is caused by the fact that we are dealing with the creator. (In other words we are nothing like him)


But yet from the verses we have looked at, and as we have listened to in the video by Walter Martin, we have come to see that while we might not fully understand how #1 and #2 can be in union they are yet clearly described as being in perfect union by the Bible.


The Bible tells us that before the universe was created God had already decided what people were to be saved.
Not a doubt about this.
Not just left up to people to decide.
No, for God decided the fate of every Christian before they person's atoms were created billions of years ago.

God predestined my fate...my future.

None of this was left to chance,
Nothing about this was left to the whim of human intervention.

This is God's sovereignty over his creation!




And yet at the same time, we see clearly that God allowed us human freewill and the ability to respond to Him.
The human freewill does not know the future,so the human does not kow the future.
So from our limited point of view we dont see the ending from the beginning.
We humans dont have a clue what is about to happen.

So we humans dont know who God has already picked to be with him in heaven.

The future to us, is totally unknown and cant ever be known.





Thus both #1 deaing with God's full control of his creation, and #2 dealing with Man's freewill and ignorance of the future are always working hand in hand with each other.

There is perfect union.

Question: "When did God choose me?"


Answer : Ephesians 1:4 says, “He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

Predestination! Does God choose me or do I choose God?


Predestination in the Bible is ALWAYS a positive thing.
It is always there to comfort us (e.g. Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:4-14).
If you have chosen God, then take heart, because it means God has predestined you to be one of His heirs.

Predestination means we can have greater ***urance" because if God is for us and has already decided we will be His, then nothing any person can do can take that away.

Predestination is not something that should make us more worried about where we stand with God.
It should make us realise that since God is responsible for making people Christians, we should be less worried, because the source of our trust is not ourselves, but God Himself.
http://christianity.net.au/questions...o_i_choose_god

Question: "What is predestination?

Answer : The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.”

So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.


According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals ( like me personally) would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified.

Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved


https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html

skip to 2:40 of the video and listen as Walter talks about why I ended up being a Christian.

I did not become a Christian by my own volition

I did not choose God, God has chosen me.

for we Christians (quoting Martin), "have been selected by Him, by Christ, before time began"

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

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No idea it was not seen?

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

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Unknown. ..

Is the missing post up now?

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

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I did notice yesterday that the forum was getting "stuck" again...and my posts would not load correctly.

Let me know if you have any problems today.
And check if anything appears odd in any way as you post?

Also.....if you have a big post to place on the board try to copy it before you post as this might save it should the forum get stuck...
I have been told by other members that longer comments can get lost easy for some reason?

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men are trapped in time, god is not,

Before the creation of the universe, god already saw me,,,(as clearly as he can see me now , and see me at my death, ) ......he already saw me with him in eternal glory after the resurrection.

And this is not just by my decision or by accident....for God had already chosen me personalty to be saved.
Nothing was left to chance,
Nothing was left in doubt...
Nothing was left for me to do....
Nothing was left up to me to decide.

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Where in the Bible does it state that God has chosen anyone to be saved on an individual basis? In the video that you posted, Walter Martin rejects that Idea that started with John Calvin. You use Dr. Martin as your authoritative source and you have ignored him.

As far as you having nothing left to decide you now contradict the scripture that calls you to salvation. You were not saved until you were born into this world and came to the point in your existence that you received Christ and were saved and became a son of God. (See John 1:12) Nothing was left to chance. God waited until you were “in Christ”, saved, before he predestined you to anything. Ephesians 1:3 and 4 states that blessings and predestinations were bestowed on those that were “IN CHRIST”. There was not a soul that was in Christ before the foundation of the world and it is not a Bible statement that God predestined anyone to salvation, or for that matter, hell.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

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God was not just reacting to what God saw happen in the ending.....NO!.....God alone was the soul cause and lone author of my salvation!!!!!!

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Yes, God is the sole cause and lone author of your salvation. It was not that he indiscriminately decided to save you, but it was because you had acted in faith to the call of God and received Christ. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9, and John 1:12) God did not force you, you made a decision totally of your own free will.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

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Look at the text you quoted -

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It comes down to the sovereignty of God....
This is to me, the fact that God decided my fate.
Not me.

God picked me to be saved....I did not decide this.

I did not choose to be a friend of God, he decided to be my friend.
God picked me by name, before the universe was made.

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Nothing that I quoted from scripture supports your heretical claim that you were not required to decide to turn from your sins and receive Christ. If you have failed to make that choice, you are still in your sins. Read it over and see that everything it is promising depends on the receiver of the promises being “in Christ”.

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The list of verses you quote are also what Walter quotes in the video I posted...

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Walter also missed the “in Christ” stipulation.

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so to sum it up-

There are two things going on at the same time that while very different, they are yet able to be in perfect union.

These are the two things-
#1 - the sovereignty of God.
#2 - the ability if man to respond within his human free will.

Now at first glance these two things will always appear to be in conflict. And it truth if you are looking for an easy to understand system that will clearly define how they can be in perfect union you are going to be disappointed.
The disappointment is caused by the fact that we are dealing with the creator. (In other words we are nothing like him)

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There is never any conflict in these two concepts. Within the sovereignty of God, man is a free moral agent with total free will. The problem is that you concept of the sovereignty of God is that you seem to have it on the level of a spoiled brat that lashes out when said brat does not get his own way. That is so far from the truth. (God wants all to be saved but that is not going to happen) (See 2 Peter 3:9)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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But yet from the verses we have looked at, and as we have listened to in the video by Walter Martin, we have come to see that while we might not fully understand how #1 and #2 can be in union they are yet clearly described as being in perfect union by the Bible.

The Bible tells us that before the universe was created God had already decided what people were to be saved.

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Show me from the Bible, book, chapter and verse where this is stated. (The Bible tells us that before the universe was created God had already decided what people were to be saved.)

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Not a doubt about this.
Not just left up to people to decide.
No, for God decided the fate of every Christian before they person's atoms were created billions of years ago.

God predestined my fate...my future.
None of this was left to chance,
Nothing about this was left to the whim of human intervention.

This is God's sovereignty over his creation!

And yet at the same time, we see clearly that God allowed us human freewill and the ability to respond to Him.
The human freewill does not know the future,so the human does not kow the future.
So from our limited point of view we dont see the ending from the beginning.
We humans dont have a clue what is about to happen.

So we humans dont know who God has already picked to be with him in heaven.

The future to us, is totally unknown and cant ever be known.

Thus both #1 deaing with God's full control of his creation, and #2 dealing with Man's freewill and ignorance of the future are always working hand in hand with each other.

There is perfect union.

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This statement is pure emotional drivel with no biblical support.

Or if you are getting any message saying a comment must be "approved " that is an error. ..I have no idea why that happens?

We don't require any posts to be approved first.

I tried a few moments ago with the same results; not post appeared and the same notice showed.

well...........

darn........


I will once again send a message to the owner about the problem posting.

We saw this same thing happen about a year or so ago, and try as I might, no matter what was done it did not correct the problem...so this is discouraging.

If you are getting a message that your posts need to be approved by the MOD first?...trust me, that is a error and I sure dont approve any posts beforehand.
Also, I dont even get a message telling me to approve any posts.???


and , I actually saw this same message for a few of my posts!.....telling me I had to have my own posts approved by the MOD when I'm the Mod!!!.


So this has got to be some type of error in the system.



I will message the owner right now.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

I tried a few moments ago with the same results; not post appeared and the same notice showed.

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let me know what you read when you attempt to post a comment.

also, in my own case, I saw the same message for my own posts and I yet did not receive that type of message when I posted on other topics, , so could you check out if you get the same problem when you attempt to post comments on other parts of the forum?

Answer : Ephesians 1:4 says, “He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

God never chose any individual to salvation. If you look at the text you posted you will see that it states that he chose "us in him" (in Christ) Again, there was no one in Christ before the foundation of the world. No one was saved before the foundation of the world. Anyone that is saved is saved in time and at salvation we are placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. When we were placed into the body of Christ we received all the blessings and predestining that was promised to those that Were in Christ.

That has absolutely nothing to do whith any statement that the Bible has about predestination.

Once more; God does not predestine people to salvation. If it is, show me the book chapter and verse that indicates that God predestines individuals to salvation. Show it!

I want a Bible quote, you know, the authority for Christian faith and doctrine. I am sure that Dr. Martian would also insist on the same.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

skip to 2:40 of the video and listen as Walter talks about why I ended up being a Christian.

I did not become a Christian by my own volition

I did not choose God, God has chosen me.

for we Christians (quoting Martin), "have been selected by Him, by Christ, before time began"

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from the beginning I was not just known to be a saved Christian with the Lord, I was planned and predetermined to be that .
Before even the atoms that are in me were created billions and billions of years ago, God caused my future to be what it one day will prove to be to me.
For - Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,




and as I said, this all is very clear in the Walter Martin video I posted, all you have to do is click on over to the point of the video clip I pointed to and have a listen to learn how God does predestine people to salvation!

so to sum it up....

God predestined the Christian to be with him in eternity.
God saw this as a done-deal,,nothing was in doubt about it...

And at the same time, We are called to believe, and until we do believe we are lost in our sins.

so the ending is much like the ending with the whole topic on the ability of men to decide things that is found in the many "Free Will" topics.

There are some people that just latch onto one side of this topic and cant see the other side's merits at all.

To some people, God cant have decided who would be saved from before time began as they believe that takes away from man's free will , and his ability to choose.

On the other side, there are some people that claim free will cant be real as that would interfere with God's total authority.


Thus we end up with these two camps that simple reject all the points that are true about the other camp's arguements.



But I take a different point of view on this matter.
I have found in the words of Walter Martin, that there is no need at all to jump on only one side and ignore the other's merit.

Walter Martin talks about how both sides of this issue have truth to them, as well as error within their argument.


And so my own POV is the same as Walter Martin's, that man has free will, and God has authority to predetermine all things.