No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Quit with all your impotent posturing and show me where I took any of my previous quotes out of context.

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You guys ONLY know how to selectively read the ECF. You're masters at cherry-picking, M. Who ya tryin to fool here?

You guys would have us believe C. S. Lewis was a nice Irish Mormon lad...:rolleyes:

Give me a more detailed bibliography, or better yet link me to the very works online. But then again, chances ARE, you haven't read them at all in context, M. You just did the down and dirty thing and cut and paste from some Mormon apologetic website (because the "thinking has been done" for you as your "Prophet" Ezra Taft Benson advised Mormons years ago) like Jeff Lindsey, FARMS, or FAIR...or "Brother" Barry Bickmore whom I caught in his brazen cherry-picking act years ago from the ECF and who wouldn't respond to my providing him with the CONTEXT. Why? It destroyed his Mormon contentions, M. That's WHY! :rolleyes:

The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)
Chapter 61. Christian baptism

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ;lest,if we omit this,we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true,and undertake to be able to live accordingly,are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting,for the remission of their sins that are past,we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water,and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For,in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe,and of our Saviour Jesus Christ,and of the Holy Spirit,they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said,"Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." John 3:5 Now,that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs,is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins,is declared by Esaias the prophet,as I wrote above;he thus speaks:"Wash you,make you clean;put away the evil of your doings from your souls;learn to do well;judge the fatherless,and plead for the widow:and come and let us reason together,says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet,I will make them white like wool;and though they be as crimson,I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel,the sword shall devour you:for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it." Isaiah 1:16-20

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice,by our parents coming together,and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training;in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance,but may become the children of choice and knowledge,and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed,there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again,and has repented of his sins,the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe;he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God;and if any one dare to say that there is a name,he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination,because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ,who was crucified under Pontius Pilate,and in the name of the Holy Ghost,who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

Three things:

Firstly, insufficient context. Yes, you heard me.

Secondly, the link doesn't work.

Thirdly, water is NOT magic. It can NOT regenerate anyone. The act signifies the REGENERATION, hence it can rightly be called, "the waters of regeneration".

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

Thirdly, water is NOT magic.

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--Neither is faith. Just ask any demon you happen to meet. Demons may actually believe in Calvinism and Trinitarianism, but does that faith save them?

Water is just as magical as faith is: It is possible for miraculous things to happen if a person USES them correctly. Water can be used to make dirty dishes clean, to make a steam engine move a train, to preserve a mammoth for 10,000 years, and to make a dehydrated person hydrated.

Faith can RESULT in the miracle of efficacious grace being applied to a person, IF the person uses that faith correctly and doesn't just announce "I believe in Anglican Jesus, so now I have guaranteed eternal life. Now let's party." Faith is something you need to exercise on a daily basis and prove you have it by your OBEDIENCE, until the end.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

--Neither is faith. Just ask any demon you happen to meet. Demons may actually believe in Calvinism and Trinitarianism, but does that faith save them?

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Demons don't have faith, jeff. They KNOW there is one God...something LDS neither have faith nor know.

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Water is just as magical as faith is: It is possible for miraculous things to happen if a person USES them correctly. Water can be used to make dirty dishes clean, to make a steam engine move a train, to preserve a mammoth for 10,000 years, and to make a dehydrated person hydrated.

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You'll just never understand that "water" in baptism is a SIGN, SIGNIFYING REGENERATION WHICH HAS ALREADY OCCURRED. It's SYMBOLIC, jeff. In and of itself it does neither regenerate or save, but is SYMBOLIC of Christ's DEATH.

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Faith can RESULT in the miracle of efficacious grace being applied to a person, IF the person uses that faith correctly and doesn't just announce "I believe in Anglican Jesus, so now I have guaranteed eternal life. Now let's party." Faith is something you need to exercise on a daily basis and prove you have it by your OBEDIENCE, until the end. [/COLOR]

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You'll just never understand (unless regenerated by the REAL Holy Spirit) that one is saved BY Grace, THROUGH Faith. You've got it backwards. Furthermore, you don't understand that WHAT we DO is a RESULT of WHO we ARE.

Now, I'll let Paul answer your "let's party" slander:

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


Rom 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose ****ation is just.

Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

Demons don't have faith, jeff. They KNOW there is one God...

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--Dang, MY Bible says the demons BELIEVE. Now who should I trust is correct: YOU, or the BIBLE?

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You'll just never understand that "water" in baptism is a SIGN, SIGNIFYING REGENERATION WHICH HAS ALREADY OCCURRED.

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--Hey, I have been baptized, so that is a sign that I was regenerated pre-baptism, right?

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It's SYMBOLIC, jeff. In and of itself it does neither regenerate or save, but is SYMBOLIC of Christ's DEATH.

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---Why is it a COMMANDMENT, then? How many unbaptized people will be in heaven?

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You've got it backwards.

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---That is funny, coming from someone who takes EVERY "if-then" conditional prescription in the Bible and turns it into a "because-then" statement. Which came first: your seminary diploma, or the coursework they said you needed to do IN ORDER to GET the diploma?

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Furthermore, you don't understand that WHAT we DO is a RESULT of WHO we ARE.

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---So the ****s on Carm do what they do (mock other groups of people) because of who they are--unregenerated fake Christians--not despite the fact that they are saved believers...right?

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Rom 3:8 And not [rather], [B](as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come?

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Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
---I don't consider your beliefs to be a case of "Let's party so that grace may abound." I consider them a case of "I think all my sins, past and future, have already been FORGIVEN, so even if I commit 1000 murders and adulteries per day, it can't put my salvation into jeopardy."


(See "Sin vigorously" by Martin Luther, your Restoration's Father.)

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Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

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--Then there are none sinless either, so don't let me catch you claiming that you have been made sinless or that you are no longer a sinner.

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

Demons don't have faith,Jeff. They KNOW there is one God...something LDS neither have faith nor know.

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James makes a hypothetical argument of whether one can show their faith without works. He answers the argument in the negative that the devils also believe in God yet works are not added to their faith and therefore being alone it does not save them. They had the first component of faith which is to "believe that He is" however the second needed factor is missing which is to demonstrate by their actions that they believe that "He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

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Hebrews 11:6

6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him,for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

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James 2:18-20

18 But someone may well say,"You have faith and I have works;show me your faith without the works,and I will show you my faith by my works."
19 You believe that God is one.You do well;the demons also believe,and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize,you foolish fellow,that faith without works is useless?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

James makes a hypothetical argument of whether one can show their faith without works. He answers the argument in the negative that the devils also believe in God yet works are not added to their faith and therefore being alone it does not save them. They had the first component of faith which is to "believe that He is" however the second needed factor is missing which is to demonstrate by their actions that they believe that "He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

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---I think it goes further than that: The devils may ALSO believe that God rewards those who seek Him--the devils just REFUSE to OBEY Him. And THAT is what dooms them. Not their lack of sola fide--they could have tons of that. It's in the area OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WILL that they blew it. And it's what is gonna doom some humans, too, including some who think they are Christians and think they are saved by their faith alone.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I think it goes further than that: The devils may ALSO believe that God rewards those who seek Him--the devils just REFUSE to OBEY Him. And THAT is what dooms them.

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A major problem is that you are looking at things with your LDS sungl***es on with respect to angels verses humans. You ***ume that angles and humans are essentially the same en***y but in "various stages of progression". This is a completely different concept compared to what Christians hold.

http://www.gotquestions.org/angels-Bible.html
". . .Angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity. The Bible nowhere states that angels are created in the image and likeness of God, as humans are (Genesis 1:26). Angels are spiritual beings that can, to a certain degree, take on physical form. Humans are primarily physical beings, but with a spiritual aspect. . ."

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I think it goes further than that: The devils may ALSO believe that God rewards those who seek Him--the devils just REFUSE to OBEY Him. And THAT is what dooms them. Not their lack of sola fide--they could have tons of that. It's in the area OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WILL that they blew it. And it's what is gonna doom some humans, too, including some who think they are Christians and think they are saved by their faith alone.

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Is this something that you have engraved on your heart "If there is a scripture that you don't like CHANGE IT".. I am sorry that you have to do this and read what you want the scripture to say instead of just trusting what it says..

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

See it's not that the devils believe is God and choose not to obey Him.. It's that they KNOW that God is one and they tremble!! Even they know that much. A attribute of God that mormonism denies. If the devils tremble and they have that information, mormonism should be unconscious in terror. Simple belief that God is there and is one Lord isn't enough a person must trust Him to be and do what He says he is and has done.. mormonism fails that that point as well.. IHS jim

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Demons don't have faith, jeff. They KNOW there is one God...

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--Dang, MY Bible says the demons BELIEVE. Now who should I trust is correct: YOU, or the BIBLE?

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Dang, my Bible uses all sorts of anthropomorphisms, and parallels in Hebrew/Greek construction which the average Mormon doesn't understand 'cause he takes every sentence in scripture in a fantastically woodenly-literal way! :rolleyes:

Now think about this, jeff. First, we'll take a looksee at James statement:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Ever hear of parallel construction? Do devils, who are fallen angels rely upon mere BELIEF that there's one God? The very fallen angels who KNEW GOD IN AN INTIMATE WAY THAT NEITHER YOU NOR I NOW POSSESS WHICH MEANS THEY REALLY KNOW AND DON'T RELY ON MERE BELIEF? Or could it be that James is making a PARALLEL statement? Human beings are confined to "belief" this side of heaven...and James makes a parallel construction. In other words, jeff...please grow up in your biblical hermeneutics. :rolleyes:


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You'll just never understand that "water" in baptism is a SIGN, SIGNIFYING REGENERATION WHICH HAS ALREADY OCCURRED.

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--Hey, I have been baptized, so that is a sign that I was regenerated pre-baptism, right?

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Nope. And I think you already knew what my answer would be, jeff. One isn't generated by the REAL Holy Spirit to believe the LIES and DECEPTION of one Joseph Smith, Jr.


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It's SYMBOLIC, jeff. In and of itself it does neither regenerate or save, but is SYMBOLIC of Christ's DEATH.

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---Why is it a COMMANDMENT, then? How many unbaptized people will be in heaven?

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Should one refuse to be baptized, it's a possible sign that something is WRONG, that that one doesn't want to follow Jesus' command...I know of only two exceptions of Christian bodies who do not as a rule baptize. The "Salvation Army" is one and I"ve momentarily forgotten the other one. Since baptism does NOT SAVE anyone, anyone truly regenerate and saved, whether baptized or not will be in heaven just like the thief on the Cross!


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You've got it backwards.

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---That is funny, coming from someone who takes EVERY "if-then" conditional prescription in the Bible and turns it into a "because-then" statement. Which came first: your seminary diploma, or the coursework they said you needed to do IN ORDER to GET the diploma?

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Not ****ogous, jeff. But instead of indulging yourself in "glittering generalities" how about a specific example?


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Furthermore, you don't understand that WHAT we DO is a RESULT of WHO we ARE.

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---So the ****s on Carm do what they do (mock other groups of people) because of who they are--unregenerated fake Christians--not despite the fact that they are saved believers...right?

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C'mon, jeff. Enough of the cheap shots. There is such a thing as maturity, etc. in the faith "or being (momentarily) in the flesh". Besides that, although being regenerated Christians, we struggle ever still with the "old nature". Something about Paul exhorting regenerate Christians to nail the old nature to the Cross daily?


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Rom 3:8 And not [rather], [b](as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come?

Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

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---I don't consider your beliefs to be a case of "Let's party so that grace may abound." I consider them a case of "I think all my sins, past and future, have already been FORGIVEN, so even if I commit 1000 murders and adulteries per day, it can't put my salvation into jeopardy."

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You demonstrate that you still don't understand the nature of the New Birth, jeff. You've just negated what Jesus said:

"A GOOD tree can NOT produce bad fruit"...do you have the slightest inkling what He MEANS?? A truly FORGIVEN, REGENERATE person is NOT GOING TO COMMIT 1000 MURDERS AND ADULTERIES PER DAY.

Again, WHAT we DO is a result of WHO we ARE. You still fail to grasp this.

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(See "Sin vigorously" by Martin Luther, your Restoration's Father.)

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Jeff, I personally answered your canard about this a long time ago. WHY do you still invoke it, even after having been FORCED to read Luther IN CONTEXT?? :rolleyes:


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Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

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--Then there are none sinless either, so don't let me catch you claiming that you have been made sinless or that you are no longer a sinner.

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Lord NO! No need to think that, jeff. I agree with Luther about being "simultaneously saint and sinner". :D

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

James makes a hypothetical argument of whether one can show their faith without works. He answers the argument in the negative that the devils also believe in God yet works are not added to their faith and therefore being alone it does not save them. They had the first component of faith which is to "believe that He is" however the second needed factor is missing which is to demonstrate by their actions that they believe that "He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

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<sigh> How many times must this be explained to you LDS?? James is teaching that a salvific FAITH will be demonstrated BY WORKS. If there are NO works which accompany "said" faith, it isn't faith at all, but called by him as a "dead faith". Are you finally going to grasp this some day, guys??? :rolleyes:

WHAT we DO is a result of WHO we ARE.

Demons are FALLEN Angels. They don't have salvific faith to begin with. They don't just "believe" there's one God. They KNOW it. (CF my answer to jeff)

The addressee of "God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" is directed TO BELIEVERS.

Unbelievers do NOT have "faith" and can NEVER "please Him" in a reprobate state.

Thanks for demonstrating yet another flawed Mormon hermeneutic, M:

Mormons tend to IGNORE/DISMISS to WHOM certain p***ages are addressed.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I think it goes further than that: The devils may ALSO believe that God rewards those who seek Him--the devils just REFUSE to OBEY Him. And THAT is what dooms them. Not their lack of sola fide--they could have tons of that. It's in the area OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WILL that they blew it. And it's what is gonna doom some humans, too, including some who think they are Christians and think they are saved by their faith alone.

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1. God rewards BELIEVERS who seek Him. According to scripture, no one in their reprobate seek Him. Be mindful of to WHOM the p***age in James is addressed: BELIEVERS.
2. First rightful statement in a long time from you, jeff: Demons do indeed REFUSE to OBEY Him. They REBELLED millenia ago.
3. Salvific FAITH is a gift from God. Demons have NEVER possessed it, NEVER will. Neither are "righteous" angels "heirs of salvation". They have NO need of salvific FAITH, jeff.
4. We ARE saved by faith ALONE, but a saving faith is NEVER alone. It WILL be accompanied by works.

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

James is teaching that a salvific FAITH will be demonstrated BY WORKS. If there are NO works which accompany "said" faith,it isn't faith at all,but called by him as a "dead faith".

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James is using the word justification in verse 21 to mean a demonstration or vindication. Then in verse 23 he switches the meaning of the word justification to mean God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous before God. Finally in verse 24 he reverts back to his original usage of the word justification as being a demonstration or vindication.

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21 Was not Abraham our father justified [i.e. vindicated] by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says,"AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified [i.e. vindicated] by works and not by faith alone for it only vindicated him.

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James used the word justification to also mean a demonstration or vindication and not a justification as Paul consistently used the term. As the grammar in verse 24 would require that this definition must serve as a referent for both faith and works James would be making the argument that a man is vindicated both by works and faith which would cease to make faith that which justified Abraham before God.

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24 You see that a man is justified [i.e. vindicated] by works and not [i.e. vindicated] by faith alone for it only vindicated him.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

A major problem is that you are looking at things with your LDS sungl***es on with respect to angels verses humans. . . ."

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---Whether angels are aliens or humans, it doesn't affect the correctness of my statement:

The devils may ALSO believe that God rewards those who seek Him--the devils just REFUSE to OBEY Him. And THAT is what dooms them.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Is this something that you have engraved on your heart "If there is a scripture that you don't like CHANGE IT

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---This is a priceless example of ironic hypocrisy. Let me spell it out for James and anyone else who might need the remedial version:

1. I say the devils believe.

2. FJD says I am wrong because, he says, the devils KNOW.

3. I say the Bible claims the devils BELIEVE.

4. Jim tries to come to the rescue by saying the Bible says the devils KNOW, and Jim also accuses ME of changing what the Bible says.

5. Here is the very bestest part of the whole circus: Jim QUOTES the Bible saying that the devils BELIEVE, and thinks he has proven that it was ME who was wrong!!!

Thanks for the laughs, Jim, you Bible-changing son of a gun. :):D:eek:

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Whether angels are aliens or humans, it doesn't affect the correctness of my statement:

The devils may ALSO believe that God rewards those who seek Him--the devils just REFUSE to OBEY Him. And THAT is what dooms them.

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You do believe that Satan and his followers could of come to the earth and taken on a physical body, been baptized etc allowing them to seek forgiveness by the blood of Jesus through faith, correct?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You do believe that Satan and his followers could of come to the earth and taken on a physical body, been baptized etc allowing them to seek forgiveness by the blood of Jesus through faith, correct?

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---Uh, if you are talking about traveling back in time, to a point before Lucifer decided to rebel, then back THEN he had the same chance to be born and go through mortal life like we have. What does THAT hypothetical have to do with the accuracy of my statement that the Bible says "The devils believe" and that mere belief can't save anyone ??? Is my statement false? Does the Bible NOT really teach these two ideas?

Why do you keep trying to come up with irrelevant hypotheticals and pretending that they might somehow invalidate the Bible?

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

"The devils believe" and that mere belief can't save anyone ???

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When you say saved what do you mean with respect to angels?

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Uh,if you are talking about traveling back in time,to a point before Lucifer decided to rebel,then back THEN he had the same chance to be born and go through mortal life like we have. What does THAT hypothetical have to do with the accuracy of my statement that the Bible says "The devils believe" and that mere belief can't save anyone? Is my statement false? Does the Bible NOT really teach these two ideas? Why do you keep trying to come up with irrelevant hypotheses and pretending that they might somehow invalidate the Bible?

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I would strongly suggest that you stop indulging Billy on these "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" irrelevancies that he is trying to bog you down in and put the onus on him to spell out the argument that James was making.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

I would strongly suggest that you stop indulging Billy on these "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" irrelevancies that he is trying to bog you down in ....

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---But it's so much FUN to see what desperate red herring he will come up with next! Some of them are fairly novel, and thus entertaining. It's like when you tell your kid "Don't ever jump off the roof," and the kid responds, "But what if the house is on fire and the doors are all burning, and I have a parachute, and there's a huge air mattress on the ground below?"

See? It's annoying, but cute to see the imagination at work.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---But it's so much FUN to see what desperate red herring he will come up with next! Some of them are fairly novel, and thus entertaining. . .

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Hey Jeff thanks for indulging me.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

The devils may ALSO believe that God rewards those who seek Him--the devils just REFUSE to OBEY Him.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

"The devils believe" and that mere belief can't save anyone ???

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Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say saved what do you mean with respect to angels?

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LDS believe that angels/demons are simply your spiritual brothers or sisters that are somewhere along the plan of salvation--just that the demons jumped ship early on that road. Yet to Christians this is a completely false idea. Humans and angels/demons are completely distinct en***ies. My comment was in response to what appeared on the surface as a hint that angels/demons could possibly be saved. Is that what you believe?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Hey Jeff thanks for indulging me.

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---I enjoy giving a person enough rope to hang himself, as much as the next guy does.

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Humans and angels/demons are completely distinct en***ies.

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--Yeah, I am familiar with the made-up species distinctions that some people have come up with. Whether demons are aliens as you believe, or whether they are spirits that would have been human if they hadn't followed satan, as I believe, has ZERO, NOTHING to do with whether my statement is true or false. Here is that statement again, waiting for you to prove it is incorrect or unBiblical:

The Bible says "The devils believe" and the Bible teaches that mere belief can't save anyone.

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My comment was in response to what appeared on the surface as a hint that angels/demons could possibly be saved. Is that what you believe?

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--LOL. Of course I don't believe that the demons who followed satan in his failed coup attempt can be saved. Didn't you pay attention in LDS Sunday School? But I just now realized how ON EARTH you could end up thinking I DID believe it, based merely on my statement that The Bible says "The devils believe" and the Bible teaches that mere belief can't save anyone. You thought I was implying that if the demons would add good works to their belief in God's existence and deity, then they could be saved just like any human who has faith and does good works can be saved. Right? Sorry, I wasn't even THINKING along those lines. I was only saying what the BIBLE says: The devils believe, but it won't save them, just like the mere belief of a mortal human won't save HIM. If all you do is have mere belief alone, you won't get saved any more than the demons will be. That is what the Bible was trying to teach you. I added that the demons have no DESIRE to OBEY God's commandments, and the proof of that is the fact that they followed satan in his attempted coup to overthrow God. THEIR fate is sealed. But yours is not, as long as you have some desire to obey God.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I enjoy giving a person enough rope to hang himself, as much as the next guy does.

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That is so LDS Christian of you Jeff.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

The Bible says "The devils believe" and the Bible teaches that mere belief can't save anyone.

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Your sentence implies that if the devils had faith in Christ AND works then they would be saved.

Note Father JD's comment which addresses the same point.

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

3. Salvific FAITH is a gift from God. Demons have NEVER possessed it, NEVER will. Neither are "righteous" angels "heirs of salvation". They have NO need of salvific FAITH, jeff.

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