Free Will

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The verse never states that you can know about Jesus by looking at the universe. That is why I am trying to get you to tell me if you really believe that looking at the universe teaches everything about Jesus. Now are you ready to tell me if you believe this or not?

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you ducked my verse again?????


You go on and on about what the verse does not say....why wont you just tell me what it does say?...after all that also is what im saying i believe .

What does the verse say we can "see clearly" in the things that are made?

and another question i ask along with that, "Who is the image of the invisible God?"




Once again, quote me the verse im looking at, quote me the verse I say i believe in, and then ask me if the verse is true or not?

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

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Did you see this part > " for God made it evident to them. "?

Do you catch what this means?.....it means that the universe does not just accidentally reflect the Lord Christ to the world of men...IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Did you see this part > " for God made it evident to them. "?

Do you catch what this means?.....it means that the universe does not just accidentally reflect the Lord Christ to the world of men...IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!

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I think you are correct here Alan.
People will not look for a cure if they don’t know they are sick, the sickness being sin and the cure being Jesus. This is true. We learn a lot about God, a lot about truth, just by looking at nature. To repeat what you posted from the Message "The basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse." Romans 1:19-20
God will also lead us to the truth about Jesus through conscience or in reality any way He wants.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Men are unable to come to Christ without the Father first drawing them.

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Therefore all men--anyone who can look at the universe--can come to Christ at anytime because the universe = the Father draws men to Christ.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you ducked my verse again?????

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Alan you can use any verse in the entire Bible and it would not agree with what you say. Nor would any person that I know here on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) believe that the act of looking at the universe reveals everything about Christ. If you disagree then let me ask you some questions about this belief--but thus far you won't even verify that this is actually what you believe.

Tell me Alan is this what you truly believe?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Did you see this part > " for God made it evident to them. "?

Do you catch what this means?.....it means that the universe does not just accidentally reflect the Lord Christ to the world of men...IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!

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Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Therefore all men--anyone who can look at the universe--can come to Christ at anytime because the universe = the Father draws men to Christ.

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No, I don't think I've ever said any such thing. But, believing/acknowledging there is a Creator and experiencing His grace through that belief can certainly open us up to Christ, when he is presented.

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Originally Posted by libby

no, i don't think i've ever said any such thing. But, believing/acknowledging there is a creator and experiencing his grace through that belief can certainly open us up to christ, when he is presented.

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Originally Posted by billyray

but you believe that the creation itself draws all men to christ--so this isn't the father drawing.

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Originally Posted by libby

yes, it is the father drawing.

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So would like to retract your statement above?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So would like to retract your statement above?

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No, why would I?

Billy, you are the one who inserted Christ into my statement. I have never said man can know Jesus Christ through nature. I am saying God the Father CAN draw men to himself, through nature (that's ONE way he might draw us)...and if we respond, He will continue to draw us, in other ways, to Christ...through the Bible, through a missionary, through a friend, etc.

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Originally Posted by disciple

I think you are correct here Alan.
People will not look for a cure if they don’t know they are sick, the sickness being sin and the cure being Jesus. This is true. We learn a lot about God, a lot about truth, just by looking at nature. To repeat what you posted from the Message "The basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse." Romans 1:19-20
God will also lead us to the truth about Jesus through conscience or in reality any way He wants.

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i dont know why I need to show up here anymore?...you got this topic nailed down!

Good posts all well written...good ***!

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Therefore all men--anyone who can look at the universe--can come to Christ at anytime because the universe = the Father draws men to Christ.

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The Bible tells us that if we look for the Lord we will find him...

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan you can use any verse in the entire Bible and it would not agree with what you say. Nor would any person that I know here on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) believe that the act of looking at the universe reveals everything about Christ. If you disagree then let me ask you some questions about this belief--but thus far you won't even verify that this is actually what you believe.

Tell me Alan is this what you truly believe?

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I truly believe you just dont want to tell me what the verse I quote is telling us......LOL

The verse I base my views on is very clear....it speaks to this question with authority.
It is the verse i use, and have in my mind when i write.>>>



So Billy, rather than going on and on telling me what you think the verse dont teach, lets listen to what you think the verse IS teaching!!!!!!!!

You can use all the study bibles you want....

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?

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"need"????

No a person never "needed" to read the Bible in order to get saved....
You have to only have faith and receive......like the thief on the cross did.
I have no idea if the thief on the cross read one page of the Bible....yet he was saved due to his faith that he put in Christ.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?

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Billy...there is no telling what a person can trace his salvation back to as far as 'whats was i doing at the time?' goes....

People born of the spirit are like the wind ****ing past you..you just never know what or where that came from or are going to..................................

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Originally Posted by Libby

No, why would I?

Billy, you are the one who inserted Christ into my statement. I have never said man can know Jesus Christ through nature. I am saying God the Father CAN draw men to himself, through nature (that's ONE way he might draw us)...and if we respond, He will continue to draw us, in other ways, to Christ...through the Bible, through a missionary, through a friend, etc.

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YES!!!!!!

as Walter Martin was said in the video....the lesser light will lead you the the greater light.

its all the same light, and it will lead you to Christ....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

YES!!!!!!

as Walter Martin was said in the video....the lesser light will lead you the the greater light.

its all the same light, and it will lead you to Christ....

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EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

I wanted to emulate your excitement!! :D

The lesser light will lead you to the greater....!!! Yes Yes Yes

Im not sure why this is,,,,but it appears that our calvinist friend hates the idea that God might love the whole world enough to be guilty of drawing all people to himself.....

any clue why he hates that idea so much?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im not sure why this is,,,,but it appears that our calvinist friend hates the idea that God might love the whole world enough to be guilty of drawing all people to himself.....

any clue why he hates that idea so much?

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I don't think he hates it. I think he really believes it. He said, in a post somewhere here, that he was more Arminian, coming out of Mormonism...but, became convinced that the Reformed view was more correct. I understand that, as I saw what he was seeing, as well, after I studied Calvinism for awhile. There is a lot of support for that belief system in the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Libby

No, why would I?

Billy, you are the one who inserted Christ into my statement. I have never said man can know Jesus Christ through nature. I am saying God the Father CAN draw men to himself, through nature (that's ONE way he might draw us)...and if we respond, He will continue to draw us, in other ways, to Christ...through the Bible, through a missionary, through a friend, etc.

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Thanks for clarifying your position.

1. Creation is the Father drawing ALL men to Himself
2. Creation doesn't draw a single person to Christ.

Did I get that right?

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Originally Posted by Libby

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

I wanted to emulate your excitement!! :D

The lesser light will lead you to the greater....!!! Yes Yes Yes

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How many men seek out God on their own according to Paul?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im not sure why this is,,,,but it appears that our calvinist friend hates the idea that God might love the whole world enough to be guilty of drawing all people to himself.....

any clue why he hates that idea so much?

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I believe what the Bible teaches. What I hate is for people such as yourself making up stuff that is not in the Bible and p***ing it off as it is taught in the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Billy...there is no telling what a person can trace his salvation back to as far as 'whats was i doing at the time?' goes....

People born of the spirit are like the wind ****ing past you..you just never know what or where that came from or are going to..................................

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I notice that you didn't answer my question so here it is again for you.

Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?[

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Thanks for clarifying your position.

1. Creation is the Father drawing ALL men to Himself
2. Creation doesn't draw a single person to Christ.

Did I get that right?

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What does the verse say compared to what you think Libby says?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

How many men seek out God on their own according to Paul?

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God's word tells us that if we seek him we will find him.....
Thats all we need to worry about.

We can have faith in the fact that if any person seeks the Lord, they will not come away empty handed......


That is all anyone can ask....