Free Will

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Originally Posted by Libby

and in a broader context, to anyone who is "following", but whose heart is not really right with God.

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yes, all are drawn by God to His son, but the responce of many is lacking.

Its like the church bells that calls all to worship in the town.
All hear the sound of the bell, all know what it more-or-less means.....but the response in many to the call of the bell is lacking.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan are you going to answer the above questions?

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Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

All that the son did was because he was SENT and he did only what the father was doing though him!
Was Jesus ever doing anything without the father?
When Jesus was born of Mary, was this just his own idea?...was it even just his own doing?.....after all, who gave Jesus his body?

So the truth is, that Jesus only did on the cross what the father was doing.......


if the Son went to heal someone it is only because the Son saw the father going to heal.
If the Son drew all men to himself on the cross, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to Himself though the cross....


The cross is where God drew all men to himself!.......AMEN!

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Originally Posted by Billyray

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

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Just as no one can come to my church on Sunday morning without first hearing the bell draw them there.....
Even if they dont get up they cant help but hear the church drawing them to get up and going.

And if later we see the people walking into the church we can say, "All who are here have heard the bell calling them"...and...."No person can walk into church without first being called by the bell to come"...and "all who hear and come will be allowed in and never turned away" (see verse 44 above)

So a person can walk into the church and say, "I heard the bell call me, and that is why I am here"

But we also understand that a lot more people heard the bell that morning than actually walk in the door of the church later.




So why does the church ring the bell if the only people that show up are just the people registered with the church and it's known members?

The reason is that the members of the church love all the people of the whole town, regardless of the different religions they may be a part of.
So even if the church knows that only it's own members will attend church today, yet still it is out of love that the church will ring the bell and offer to every person the same call to come and worship God with us.


This fits with the verse where it teaches that "god so loved the Whole World..."
God loves the whole world...not just the elect....not just the few who worship him...not just the number that God always knew would be Christians....No, God loves the Whole World!


This is also why the Bible tells us that we can seek God and find him!

We dont have to read a book...
We dont have to climb a mountain...
We dont have to swim in a holy river...

All we need to do is seek God within our hearts and the Bible tells us that if we seek Him we shall find him......regardless of our situation at the time or place in the world...
We will find him!

This also is why the Bible teaches that the world that is made also teaches us about God....
And this fact is not by accident.
For God made all the things of this universe in such a manner as to be able to draw all men to Himself.

So no matter where in the universe you live....
And no matter how far from a church you were born...
Nor what strange religion you were raised to believe in.....it is yet there always before you this drawing action of God drawing you to Himself, as seen clearly in the things that are made.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Alan do you believe that those in verse 64 were drawn by the Father to Christ?

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all men are drawn,,,but not all respond to the light they have received...

It's like seeds scattered on the land...sometimes it grows because it lands on good soil.....but many times the seed dies on dry ground.
The Bible tells us that from the beginning the things of God are clearly seen by all men,,,,,so this is all by God's plan that all men will receive the calling on their heart to believe in Him....

But the problem why this does not always work is talked about where jesus wept over the people of a city he said "would not" come to him......

Notice he did not say the people "could not"
This means that the people were able to fully to come to him...yet for the hardness of their hearts they had not come to God.



"would not" is talking about the free will of people stopping them

and....naturally, when I did have some free time to post, none other were around.

Thus i have no doubt now that because my free time to post is now ended and i must get going that out of the woodwork will come all the other members of this forum to start posting what im sure will be another 70 posts by the time I check-in tonight. LOL..:confused:

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

"Mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."




"Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

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The OFFER is given to all of those who have heard about Christ. And anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

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1. Was the Father born of Mary?
2. Did the Father come to earth and take on a body?
3. Did the Father die on a cross?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

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Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

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can any person be born and yet live in a universe that was not made by the Son and always reflect the Maker's hand?......let me know how......LOL

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The OFFER is given to all of those who have heard about Christ. And anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved.

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I believe the verse says "all people"...LOL...... not just a lucky few.....
God so loved the "whole world"...not just a lucky few....

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Originally Posted by Billyray

1. Was the Father born of Mary?
2. Did the Father come to earth and take on a body?
3. Did the Father die on a cross?

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see post #877

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

All that the son did was because he was SENT and he did only what the father was doing though him!
Was Jesus ever doing anything without the father?
When Jesus was born of Mary, was this just his own idea?...was it even just his own doing?.....after all, who gave Jesus his body?
y
So the truth is, that Jesus only did on the cross what the father was doing.......


if the Son went to heal someone it is only because the Son saw the father going to heal.
If the Son drew all men to himself on the cross, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to Himself though the cross....


The cross is where God drew all men to himself!.......AMEN!

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bump......

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

can any person be born and yet live in a universe that was not made by the Son and always reflect the Maker's hand?......let me know how......LOL

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Alan do you have an answer for me?

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe the verse says "all people"...LOL...... not just a lucky few.....
God so loved the "whole world"...not just a lucky few....

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I never said "just a lucky few". Did I? Here is what I said again. "The OFFER is given to all of those who have heard about Christ. And anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved."

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

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Alan you belief is not supported by any other Christian on this board. Do you realize that?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

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Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan do you have an answer for me?

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

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see post #878

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

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see post #879

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

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"all people everwhere".........means ALL PEOPLE!.....EVERWHERE!

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan you belief is not supported by any other Christian on this board. Do you realize that?

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James is gone......so who is this list of "others" you speak of?