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Still waiting...
When are we going to see some Mormon substantiate Smith's correction to the universal consensus of all Egyptological scholarship with regard to the identification of the pagan idols depicted in Egyptian mythology?
Never???
I guess so. The closest thing we have seen is RussianWolf trying to pretend that they were not Egyptian at all. Given the indisputable FACT that they have been positively and universally recognized as Egyptian deities on ALL "breathing permits" AND throughout all relevant Egyptian texts and mythology, that is one of the lamest excuses ever attempted by a Mormon.
But that is not even close to an actual answer to the challenge posted in the OP.
Given the total lack of any defense for Smith's "revelation from God", Mormons have simply once again defaulted on their obligation to support the foundational claims of their whole religion.
So what else is new?
-BH
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Still waiting...
Still waiting...
When are we going to see some Mormon substantiate Smith's correction to the universal consensus of all Egyptological scholarship with regard to the identification of these pagan idols depicted in Egyptian mythology?
The closest thing we have seen is RussianWolf trying to pretend that they were not Egyptian at all. Given the indisputable FACT that they have been positively and universally recognized as Egyptian deities on ALL "breathing permits" AND throughout all relevant Egyptian texts and mythology, that is one of the lamest excuses ever attempted by a Mormon.
But that is not even close to an actual answer to the challenge posted in the OP.
Given the total lack of any defense for Smith's "revelation from God", Mormons have simply once again defaulted on their obligation to support the foundational claims of their whole religion.
The world is left to just wait for Mormons to come up with yet another embarr***ingly lame excuse or to let their silence prove that they themselves have no reason to believe what the LDS organization has told them to "think".
-BH
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Hey BH,
I stumbled onto this post and found this thread somewhat amusing. It seems that people on this forum are somewhat incapable of having an intelligent conversation without childish name calling and attacks:
"I refer you to THIS published article by LDS Egyptologist, Stephen Thompson. Read it and weep."
"Go ahead and prove me wrong, RW. But you will need to bring something other than your childish, whimpering accusations to do so."
I don't know about you, but phrases like "read it and weep" and calling people "stoopid" with "empty fantasies" seems to be on the childish and unkind side. Didn't Jesus preach love, openness, understanding and acceptance? Maybe I'm naive, but shouldn't we approach such questions (as the one you brought up, Marvin, which is a very valid question that many member and non-members alike have) with a spirit of openness, kindness and love?
Calling people "trolls" doesn't accomplish much either, Russianwolfe.
BH, there are many valid answers to your questions. However, even if we (members of the LDS faith) prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith was in fact correct with his translation of the Facsimile #1, I doubt you would pack up your proverbial bags and come to the LDS church and be baptized, am I right?
I sense a great deal of anger, frustration and downright cruelty towards the LDS church, and I wonder why that is. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm hoping you will accept that not every Mormon is a "stooped", ********, lying, blind cult following robot. Many of us do accept there are unanswered questions, but because of the overwhelming amount of facts that do prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, prophesies about the Civil War, the growth of the Church, his teachings, not to mention the intense spiritual witnesses many have received, and continue to receive of the truth of these things) we have faith that they will be sorted out. Does that make us blind cult followers? I don't think so. The whole concept of a God, Jesus Christ, coming from heaven to sacrifice himself for our sins is pretty outlandish and "cultish" if you think about it from an outsiders view. In that sense I guess we are all in some type of cult or another.
Nevertheless, I have found a great deal about the Book of Abraham that you might find as an interesting read. Keep in mind that this will not answer all of your questions, but I'm hoping this can address some of the questions you proposed in the original post.
These are not official statements of the Church, but still provide some valid points.
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/onthe.htm
This documents claims that although the names are not Egyptian, they do contain Egyptian roots, mixed with Syro-Canaanitish elements which makes sense because Abraham is pointing out Ancient Egyptian customs to a non-Egyptian audience.
Here is a small quote from the article, addressing the name of one of the Gods: Mahmackrah
"What we hear is Mah-mackr-ah. The mackr element is very important in
Canaanite names such as Mhr-Anat which means "champion, or upholder of the
goddess Anat." Ramses II called himself Mahr-B'l meaning upholder of Ba'al,
the Canaanite god. Mahr-Rah would be the champion or upholder of Rah, the
Egyptian equivilant of Ba'al.
We need to note that the h in the root must have a heavy sound in order not
to be swallowed up by the r which follows. The shift between the k and the h
can be seen in our own name Mi-cha-el which the Jews wrote Mi-ka-el.
Incidentally, the form of the name rather neatly parallels our Ma-mackr-rah.
Mi-cha-el, like Mi-ca-iah (1 Kings 22). (Nibley, Sept. 1969).
The Canaanite name Maq'arah means a burning incidentally. Interesting that
in the Abraham legends one of them indicates that Abraham's sacrifice was to
be burned in the fire. The Jewish Encyclopedia notes this. The idolatrous
god of Beth-shan is called "Mkl'a", the great god. The first element in his
name, Mkl is Canaanite, while the ending 'a is Egyptian. Another
interesting name form is the Egyptian Mai-m-hqa meaning the lion is ruler.
Our canopic name would then be Mai-m-akr-ah which would mean The lion Akr is
great! Akr being the earth god as lion, and Abraham is on the LION couch to
be sure. The point is, this name is not just meaningless gibberish whatever."
For a delusional cult leader, Joseph really got a lot of things really close here. Maybe he just guessed? Sure, that's a possibility, but pretty unlikely.
Also, Joseph was spot on when he translated the "pillars of heaven" from the support beams on the bottom of the facsimile, and also the correct translation of item 12 - the heaven's, or firmament. It is well known now that Egyptians conceived heaven as a heavenly ocean (Erik Hornung, "Himmelsvorstellungen," Lexikon der Ägyptologie, 2:1216.) You didn't seem to bring any of that up in your original argument. Maybe you overlooked it. In any case, there appears to be evidence that supports Joseph Smith's claim to have translated this Facsimile with surprising accuracy, considering that none of this information was available when Joseph Smith was alive.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
But there are still multiple facets of the facsimile you haven't even covered! What about the fact that most "experts" believe that this is a funeral scene? Well this poses a huge problem, because:
1) The figure in the Facsimile has not only his feet lifted up, but his hands raised in the air (keep in mind that Joseph filled this in because that portion of the papyrus was missing). This is a-typical to other funeral scenes found. In fact, most funeral scenes depict a figure in a sarcophagi, not with his feet in the air and both hands raised (some have been found showing one hand raised, but none with both hands being raised depicting a funeral scene)
Even most interesting is that the scene which Joseph filled in is perfectly consistent with other hieroglyphics depicting "praying", "praise" or "supplication" (http://www.ancient-egypt-priests.com...lt-english.htm) , which is exactly what Abraham would be doing in that situation. Flip the Abraham character 90 degrees and it fits that profile perfectly.
These symbols can also be found in this book: Sir Alan Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, Being An Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs, 3rd Ed. (Oxford University Press, London: 1966), p. 32, paragraph 24 - which shows this same thing. The symbol for "death" and "bury" is consistent with other burial scenes.
Again, dumb luck that Joseph Smith just happened to get this right? If he were making all this up, it seems pretty unlikely that he would get so many things right. And all this before much of this information was available to him.
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Is there a single Egyptologist using his/her training that will validate Joseph Smith really had any clue what so ever about translating Egyptian?
Well???
Didn't think so. You provide a lot of desperation with no real teeth.
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Greetings
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, otherwise known as the Mormon Church. Here are a couple of thoughts to factor in to your discussion.
First, we as Mormons are used to being ‘beaten-over-the-head’ by detractors over the items that are supposedly false or fraudulent about our religion. We don’t come back to argue with you, not because our position is untenable, but because it is a waste of our time. We are content to wait until time proves us right. For example, we suffered years of har***ment about how the Book of Mormon had to be false because there was no DNA evidence of Hebrew lineage in the Americas. Guess what! Now there is not only DNA evidence, but also evidence of Hebrew writing found on artifacts in North America. Defending against that kind of argument was a useless exercise.
Second, we prefer to base our lives on the many things that we know to be true than on one or two doubtful issues raised by detractors. Millions of Mormons have the sure witness of the Holy Spirit that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. This is a glad message that your “restorationist” Protestant religions are still seeking. That witness is confirmed time and time again. Why should we spend time buried in your polemic when we know that ultimately we will be vindicated.
Third, you approach this question with several wrong ***umptions. You ***ume from the start that Joseph Smith is a fraud and therefor the Book of Abraham must be fraudulent. You ***ume that Egyptology is now a closed science – knowing everything that there is to know about ancient Egypt and its language, and that there are no more ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ to be found. You simply can’t know this. You also ***ume that all the names in the Book of Abraham are Egyptian. There was a great deal of trade among the ancient nations and many cross-boundary gods. In the process you miss wonderful aspects of the Book of Abraham, many of which agree with and add to both Jewish and Islamic traditions about this great patriarch.
I invite you to wipe your slate clean and come to the question of Joseph Smith with fresh eyes. Ask yourself, “What if Joseph Smith really was a prophet called by Christ himself?” We know that we are in the end times and that many momentous events will happen prior to the coming of Christ and His millennial reign. Does it make sense that all this will happen without prophetic leadership when God has said that he will do nothing without informing his appointed prophet leaders? (Amos 3:7) Christ even appointed a forerunner for His personal mission on earth. It will truly be a shame if you p*** beyond the veil only to find Joseph Smith standing with the likes of Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Peter and yes, even the Savior himself.
I know by the witness of the Spirit that Joseph Smith was visited by the Father and the Son, and called by them to be the first prophet of this dispensation. He translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. You can know this too but you will have to set aside your prejudice and ask with an open heart. As stated by the ancient prophet Moroni:
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. (Moroni 10:4)
God bless you to open your heart and find the truth.
