Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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11-09-2011, 05:07 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The voice of the Prophet is usually recognized as more than an opinion, but it is not canonized scripture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

But it is still his opinion and nothing more. Is this a fair ***essment?

Is that what I said?
11-09-2011, 05:14 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Is that what I said?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The voice of the Prophet is usually recognized as more than an opinion,

What exactly is "more than an opinion"? Is that simply just a plain old opinion like my opinion?
11-09-2011, 05:17 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

What exactly is "more than an opinion"? Is that simply just a plain old opinion like my opinion?

No. No LDS would listen to your opinion as they would a prophet's voice. It is more than an opinion to them. But again--if a prophet should state something that the church disagrees on--then it would be considered his opinion.

The LDS believe the prophet has his opinions also, as do all prophets.
11-09-2011, 05:19 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

What exactly is "more than an opinion"? Is that simply just a plain old opinion like my opinion?

No---it means that when the student gives an opinion it does not hold as much weight as the teachers opinion, but we understand it is only the "text" that is revelation and not opinion.

So, Billyray, are you still going to avoid the question, do you believe that Jesus Christ is not really the Son of God, but that the idea that he is the "only begotten" of the Father is just more of a poetic figure of speech?
11-09-2011, 05:20 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No. No LDS would listen to your opinion as they would a prophet's voice. It is more than an opinion to them. But again--if a prophet should state something that the church disagrees on--then it would be considered his opinion.

When would the church disagree with the prophet? Can you give me a recent example?
11-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

but we understand it is only the "text" that is revelation and not opinion.

What does this mean?
11-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, Billyray, are you still going to avoid the question, do you believe that Jesus Christ is not really the Son of God

Jesus is the Son and the Father is the Father.
11-09-2011, 05:26 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus is the Son and the Father is the Father.

How so? Is Jesus Christ begotten of the Father or not?
11-09-2011, 05:27 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus is the Son and the Father is the Father.

But the question--is Jesus Christ the begotten Son of God the Father--Mary being the mother, and God the Father being the Father?
11-09-2011, 05:27 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

What does this mean?

It means that the prophet leads the church and therefore, his opinion has more weight. That said, even a prophet realizes that all of his utterances are not prophetic and will gladly acknowledge at times that they are wrong. Just read the D&C and see how many times Joseph Smith is told to repent.
11-09-2011, 05:29 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

That said, even a prophet realizes that all of his utterances are not prophetic and will gladly acknowledge at times that they are wrong.

So did brigham young acknowledge that his quote was not true?
11-09-2011, 05:32 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

So did brigham young acknowledge that his quote was not true?

The point is that Brigham Young never put his stamp of approval on the Journal of Discourses, nor did the other prophets and apostles. If they had, the Journal of Discourses would have been cannonized as scripture. That is a point that seems to keep going over your head--not sure why.
11-09-2011, 05:34 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The point is that Brigham Young never put his stamp of approval on the Journal of Discourses, nor did the other prophets and apostles.

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/
11-09-2011, 05:38 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/

Straight out of the Journal of Discourses which is not cannonized. Had this "deserved" been a standard works, it would have been one.

As noted, this seems to be the whole argument evangelicals have against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints---a set of books that the church does not consider scripture. As much as you want to make it such Billyray, it is not.

So, Billyray, seeing as we have hundreds of pages of scripture to look at---why not qualify your criticisms of my beliefs using what you absolutely know I take as revelation? Hundreds of pages Billyray, surely you can find something from them to critique us on.
11-09-2011, 05:50 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Straight out of the Journal of Discourses which is not cannonized. Had this "deserved" been a standard works, it would have been one.

President George Q. Cannon was wrong on this one as well?
11-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Straight out of the Journal of Discourses which is not cannonized. Had this "deserved" been a standard works, it would have been one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html

Would you say that the above quote is simply opinion?
11-09-2011, 05:56 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

President George Q. Cannon was wrong on this one as well?

Billyray---why not keep using the Journal of Discourses to attack the church. (Or better yet, attack the opinions about the opinions as above?) As certainly, there is nothing in our revelations in which to attack? Hundreds of pages of scriptures and yet you continue to continue going to sources that are not scriptures. It tells me just how weak your arguments are. It is like going to cliff notes and thinking you understand the whole book. :p
11-09-2011, 05:58 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray---why not keep using the Journal of Discourses to attack the church.

Because within its pages shows the false teachings of your leaders. You should wake up to this fact but my guess is that you are fast asleep.
11-09-2011, 06:01 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because within its pages shows the false teachings of your leaders. You should wake up to this fact but my guess is that you are fast asleep.

No, being a member of the church for many, many years, I clearly understand that my beliefs are not decided by discussion had by older prophets, but rather revelation given in scriptures. All the discussion is just that, discussion.

But clearly, Billyray, as you do not look to attack our scriptures, I guess that means that you agree with them. Hundreds of pages of scripture and yet you go to the cliff notes. Okay.
11-09-2011, 06:01 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/

Billyray--please know this one thing--the Journal of Discourses is not LDS scripture.

I would venture to say not even half of the LDS have ever read a page from it.
11-09-2011, 06:05 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--please know this one thing--the Journal of Discourses is not LDS scripture.

Why have modern day prophets if all you believe is that their words are simply opinions?
11-09-2011, 06:09 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why have modern day prophets if all you believe is that their words are simply opinions?

Because they lead the affairs of the church and when needed, God gives them revelation. Listen to the conference talks Billyray---what you will hear is the prophets using scripture to teach. When something is a "revelation", it will be cannonized.

If you think everything a prophet ever spoke should be scripture---where are all of your scriptures? Or do you think the prophets and apostles were completely silent other than what you have a "scripture"?
11-09-2011, 06:13 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Because they lead the affairs of the church and when needed, God gives them revelation. Listen to the conference talks Billyray---what you will hear is the prophets using scripture to teach. When something is a "revelation", it will be cannonized.

If you think everything a prophet ever spoke should be scripture---where are all of your scriptures? Or do you think the prophets and apostles were completely silent other than what you have a "scripture"?

That's a good point.
11-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

God gives them revelation.

What was the last revelation that your prophet received?
11-09-2011, 06:14 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

If you think everything a prophet ever spoke should be scripture

Give me all of the scripture that you have received from your last 2 prophets.
11-09-2011, 06:15 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why have modern day prophets if all you believe is that their words are simply opinions?

Cite, please. Could you cite that? Where do you find my opinion as the voice of prophets being just another opinion? Some of their words are opinion, but the LDS do not view the words of prophets as just another opinion.
11-09-2011, 06:17 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Give me all of the scripture that you have received from your last 2 prophets.

Why not from all the last prophets---it is called, The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C.

Like I said Billyray--hundreds of pages. Dig through them and see what criticisms you have. If not---then your arguments are just fluff.
11-09-2011, 06:19 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Why not from all the last prophets---it is called, The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C.

Is there any scripture from the last two prophets?
11-09-2011, 06:26 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Is there any scripture from the last two prophets?

If one were to notice--most prophets reinforce and restore those scriptures that have already been given.
11-09-2011, 06:28 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If one were to notice--most prophets reinforce and restore those scriptures that have already been given.

Is that a no?

How about the last 3 prophets? Any scripture?
11-09-2011, 07:39 PM
Jill

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Jill's comments that Jesus Christ's father was the Holy Ghost is foreign to the Biblical text.

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:18

"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:20
11-09-2011, 07:56 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

The sections from the Bible are scripture. Jeffrey's other words are simply his opinions. BTW Jeffery comes across as angry. Did you get that vibe from him?

No, I did not get anger from him. Interesting that you did. So---then, as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is up to us to pray about the words of the apostle (or sometimes the spirit just witnesses as you listen) and come to a decision regarding the truth of it.

Now, was it mandatory that Christ suffer alone for our atonement---was that just an opinion? That is up for you to decide between you and God.
11-09-2011, 08:02 PM
neverending

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Jill's comments that Jesus Christ's father was the Holy Ghost is foreign to the Biblical text.

The Bible makes this claim--that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. He never makes the claim that the Holy Ghost was His Father.

If you or anyone else on this forum has a Biblical p***age where Jesus Christ makes any claim that God the Father really isn't His father--or where the Holy Ghost is His father--then please print it.

St John20:17-"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

db: Have you read where it says in Matt. 1:18, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." How can one agrue with this very verse as it is clear to me that Mary begot Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost. And since the Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead, then we also have to accept that Christ was begotten by God the Father too, begotten by both for they are ONE God.
There are somethings within the story of Christ that we can't fully understand, this being one of them but we must say that He also had a part in the creation of his physical body. When Christ said, "God is spirit", that included himself too. Yes, I know that this concept is difficult to realize but try and think on it.
11-09-2011, 08:06 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I did not get anger from him.

He seems so angry. You don't get that from him at all?
11-09-2011, 08:08 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Now, was it mandatory that Christ suffer alone for our atonement---was that just an opinion?

Do you mean that there was only one savior and not two? Or are you asking about the part when Christ says "why have you forsaken me"? I am not sure what you are really asking?
11-09-2011, 08:16 PM
Jill

We're getting off-topic here. The discussion is about why Mitt Romney is not a Christian based on historical and biblical proofs.

Talking about Jesus does not make you a Christian or there wouldn't be a history of Christians defending biblical doctrine against HERESY stretching back 2000 years. Heretics talked about Jesus all the time and even said some interesting things...but their talk was false teaching because their definitions were not biblical.

The heart of the matter is that Christians have defined Christianity consistently for 2000 years based on the Bible, and just talking nice about Jesus does not make you a Christian. Which Jesus are you talking about? Which God? What definition are you using?

Joseph Smith Jr. made up his own definitions, and that is why Mormonism is not Christian.
11-09-2011, 08:21 PM
Jill

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The point is that Brigham Young never put his stamp of approval on the Journal of Discourses, nor did the other prophets and apostles. If they had, the Journal of Discourses would have been cannonized as scripture. That is a point that seems to keep going over your head--not sure why.

Uh, I think it's gone over your head, BigJulie.

Brigham Young

"I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95)

"I am here to answer. I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161)

"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).
11-09-2011, 08:24 PM
neverending

Julie,
I watched the video.....Holland came across quite humble as he spoke of the Savior. My problem is this, Christ leads HIS Church today......HE promised he would never leave us nor forsake us. There is NO NEED for apostles or your self proclaimed prophet who has NEVER prophesized about anything, nor has his performed miracles of any kind. NO! He is only a figure head running a corporation, not a church. Is this what Christ would have wanted for HIS Church? Christ didn't care about money, he cared about making disciples and sending those disciples out into the world to preach HIS gospel, not the LDS made up gospel, which is another gospel spoken in Gal. 1:8-9, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!" That is how strongly God feels about anyone preaching anything other than what Jesus taught. Mormonism is under this curse for your doctrines do not follow what Christ taught; your apostles are fake and do nothing but give lip service for they know that Mormonism is a lie but they love the money, power and prestige it alllows them.
11-09-2011, 08:38 PM
Decalogue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:18

"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:20

Amen ! and Amen ! Jill.

How is it that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir can sing those beautiful Christmas hymns of the Christian Faith , and yet the mormons reading this website do not know the verses that you posted ?

The L.D.S. folks reading this need to break open a Bible and turn over to Matthew 1 , and read it. Next , Luke chapter 1 and 2 . Plain as day folks. That's why your parents sent you to school - so you could learn to read. Mary asks the Angel Gabriel some questions. Open the Bible and see the words for yourself.

Jill ; You posted the correct answer and it is what I was going to use as a reply after a L.D.S. member quoted and posted to me. { page 3 iirc. }

I was trying to "cool down" before I went on a full ****n rant. My blood pressure almost spiked reading the disgusting blasphemy that these modern-day mormons are posting on this Thread. They are advocating physical incest between God the Father with a young jewish girl in the Dividic family line. They have bought into the filth of Joseph Smith's adulterous mindset. His Deputy - Brigham Young added onto the mental sludge of Joseph Smith with his statements which you correctly posted from his sermons ( Discourses ).

Shameless blasphemy. :eek:
11-09-2011, 08:55 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

He seems so angry. You don't get that from him at all?

Not at all---sorrowful, sad--in pain, but not angry.

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