Defining "works-based salvation" and the Blood of Christ

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

True. Also true is that Billy's question was not about debts. It was

"what is the basis for sending anyone to hell if every single sin for every single person has been paid for."

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That is true. I was giving you a real world example to help you see the issue. But despite that you still don't seem to get it.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And we have answered that question. For any who missed it, the answer, again, is:

The basis is that even though Jesus paid the price (atoned) for all of our sins, it does not guarantee we will all get eternal life because no one forces us to benefit from that payment.

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This is exact situation of scenario 2. . .In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

This is exact situation of scenario 2. . .In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full.

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So you're saying that you believe that scenario 2 is true doctrine? "The friend pays off your debt completely."

But you believe that Jesus FAILED to pay off ANY of the debt of most of the human race. Which is proof that your Jesus doesn't love most of the human race. He must hate most of us. Why would I want to worship someone like that?
You might as well write a scripture that says "The only reason that any of should love Him, is because He loved us first." Which means that there is no reason why most of us should love Him.


See where your belief ends up taking you? Into heresy. It's a heresy to believe that there's no reason why most of us should love Jesus.

Now look at LDS doctrine and see how much better it is: In LDS doctrine, we all have a good reason to love Jesus because He atoned for the sins of all humans who sin. Therefore, if we choose to not love Him, we have no excuse. We all OWE Jesus for what He has done for ALL of us. In LDS doctrine, there is no good reason to not love Jesus.

See how that makes your belief a real loser?

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you're saying that you believe that scenario 2 is true doctrine? "The friend pays off your debt completely."

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No I am saying you claim to believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person. Yet on the other hand you must not believe that every person is saved. This is a conflicting belief

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dberrie---Then why is that your pat answer when I post scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him? IE---

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If receiving the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins is conditional upon walking in the light--then works are a consideration in eternal life.

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Billyray----God gives his grace all the time to both believers and unbelievers.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--You believe that God gives His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins to those who are unbelievers?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus died for his sheep.

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If He only died for His sheep--then His Blood really does not go to both the believers and unbelievers--right?

The scripture above states the Blood of Christ goes, as a condition, to those who walk in His light--do you believe that? Or is that just another works-based religion to you?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If He only died for His sheep--then His Blood really does not go to both the believers and unbelievers--right?

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If Jesus PAID for every sin for every single person can you tell me the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scripture above states the Blood of Christ goes, as a condition, to those who walk in His light--do you believe that? Or is that just another works-based religion to you?

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Those who follow Christ ARE believers. Right. And No--Christianity is not a works based salvation, However Mormonism IS a works based salvation. Why can't you seem to come out and admit that you believe in a works based salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--If He only died for His sheep--then His Blood really does not go to both the believers and unbelievers--right?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

If Jesus PAID for every sin for every single person can you tell me the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

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You have asked--and I have answered that question before.

Again--the answer--Because they do not obey the Redeemer--who sets the conditions of who enters into life. Christ dying for all mankind did not give anyone eternal life--but it did offer all an opportunity for all to inherit life--through His grace--which He gives to those who obey Him.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Billyray--God died for all men. That provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life--by absolving all from the consequences which automatically befell all men due to the Fall.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You have asked--and I have answered that question before.

Again--the answer--Because they do not obey the Redeemer--who sets the conditions of who enters into life. Christ dying for all mankind did not give anyone eternal life--but it did offer all an opportunity for all to inherit life--through His grace--which He gives to those who obey Him.

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But it is a sin to disobey Christ. Wasn't this sin paid for by Christ?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---You have asked--and I have answered that question before.

Again--the answer--Because they do not obey the Redeemer--who sets the conditions of who enters into life. Christ dying for all mankind did not give anyone eternal life--but it did offer all an opportunity for all to inherit life--through His grace--which He gives to those who obey Him.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Billyray--God died for all men. That provided an opportunity for all men to inherit life--by absolving all from the consequences which automatically befell all men due to the Fall.


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But it is a sin to disobey Christ. Wasn't this sin paid for by Christ?

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All sins of mankind was paid for by Christ in His Atonement. That accomplaised two things:

1) It absolved(justified) all men of the automatic condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall.

2) It placed Christ as the Redeemer and Savior of mankind--and gave Him the right to set the conditions for His grace unto life.

Billyray--don't confuse Atoning for sins with the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins--if it did--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after the Atonement?

The Atonement did make the remission of sins possible--through the conditions set by the Redeemer:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


A doctrine contrary to faith alone theology.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins.

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So Jesus did NOT pay for ALL sins for every single person? Is that really your answer?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins--if it did--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after the Atonement?

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We are given lots of commandments and NONE of us keep them. If salvation was based on our personal righteousness then not a single person would be saved.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All sins of mankind was paid for by Christ in His Atonement. That accomplaised two things:

1) It absolved(justified) all men of the automatic condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall.

2) It placed Christ as the Redeemer and Savior of mankind--and gave Him the right to set the conditions for His grace unto life.

Billyray--don't confuse Atoning for sins with the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for the sins of the world did not forgive sins--if it did--then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after the Atonement?

The Atonement did make the remission of sins possible--through the conditions set by the Redeemer:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


A doctrine contrary to faith alone theology.

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As Christians we strive to make the whole of the Bible work together as one non contradictory revelation. It would seem that the LDS really don't care if it contradicts.. After all it is an imperfect book since Jesus didn't have the power to keep His promise that His words would never p*** away.. The high leadership of the LDS church has had different ideas of the veracity of the Bible.. Instead of trusting the promises of Jesus the attack the record He promised to protect. It is recorded that:

Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original? (Orson Pratt, Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, p. 47)

How is it that so many of the verses of the King James Bible have appeared in the BofM without ant modification? But still Joseph Smith confirmed the teaching of Pratt saying:

From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled. (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 11)

It is LDS doctrine that Jesus is a liar.. By insisting that the Bible is corrupt the promises of Jesus to ensure that His words would continue for all time are negated as lies.. This is done by the foundational teaches of the church but it doesn't end there. Mark E. Peterson said:

Many insertions were made, some of them 'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).

You can agree with such men or you can trust Jesus that his words would never p*** away. You can trust the Holy Spirit (I Peter 1:23, 25) that the word of God endures forever..

If that is the case you must find away to make Acts 2:38, John 3:16, and Eph 2:8-9 all agree.. Jesus taught that all who believe would have everlasting life, The Holy Spirit through Paul taught that salvation is gained by God's grace through Faith in Jesus. How is it then that the good work of baptism has any place in salvation? Acts 2:38 does work if we allow it to use a different meaning than what you have been taught.. Allow the for in for the remission of sins. To mean because of. We repent turning our hearts and minds to God, submitting to baptism BECAUSE OF (for) the remission of sins God has provided.. Then it all makes complete sense. In the context of the whole of the Bible it agrees.. But are the LDS interested in consistency? Or will they insist that their interpretation of the verse that adds contradiction to the Bible the right way to go? Seeing that mormonism see so much error in the Bible I doubt they will agree. They would rather see contradiction than believe the salvation of Men, from spiritual death, is not subject to, in a major part, their obedience.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

As Christians we strive to make the whole of the Bible work together as one non contradictory revelation.

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Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?

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How is it contradictory?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

How is it contradictory?

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James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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That is teaching the same thing Paul taught in Ephesians..

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So God has chosen that we should walk in good work.. How is that different than saying a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. But still remember that Jesus and Paul taught that salvation come to those that believe.. Paul make it even more clear in Eph 2:8-9.. Remember he teaches us that saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. So while good work show that we have true faith in Jesus it is the faith nor the works that saves.. Even mormonism teaches that we are saved by grace. Paul explains the difference between grace and works.

Romans 11:6 NASB
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Biblically it's either Grace or it's works.. It can't be both.. All works can do is to manifest living faith..

db, why are you using James 2? I was told that James 2:10 is ridiculous and not really scripture.. Since Verse 10 is in the oldest m****cripts with the rest of James. I don't understand LDS reluctance to agree with the Holy Spirit that if we commit any sin we are guilty of the whole Law before a Holy God.. If you don't agree either GET OUT OF JAMES 2.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

All works can do is to manifest living faith..

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Is a living faith necessary for salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Such as teaching faith alone as the post and pillar of salvation--when the Bible teaches to the exact contrary?

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Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View PostHow is it contradictory?

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James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.