The tally of Biblical quotes

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Originally Posted by Apologette

The question is, how have Christians misrepresented the Church? Have I?

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Of course. It would be a true miracle if there has never been a case of a Christian misrepresenting some other group. Look at what Luther said about Jews. Are you claiming Luther wasn't a Christian? Or are you claiming that Luther, a Christian, was correct in what he said about Jews? It's got to be one or the other, so choose ye this day which is the truth.

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Do I not always post connected links to verify what I'm saying.?

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No. Not always. But if everyone posted links to every single accusation they made about someone else, this would be very boring site.

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And of course Mormons have a works soteriology, look at D&C 132, where your "god" says he judges by works, not faith.

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The NT of the BIBLE ALSO has verses stating that God will judge people based on their works--a happy judgment if their works were good, and a scary judgement if their works were evil.

So you just accused the NT of teaching a works-based soteriology because it contains such verses. Nice! This is what Seebok used to call a scorched-earth strategy, and I used to call the atomic hand grenade attack.

In contrast to that, I offer this: Both the NT and the LDS teach a CHRIST-based soteriology, where CHRIST is the BASIS for any salvation that occurs, because without Christ, no one would be saved. The fact that obedience is one ingredient in the recipe does not make the recipe obedience-BASED, any more than a pinch of salt in a bread recipe makes the bread SALT-based instead of FLOUR-based.

I hope that helped straighten out some misrepresenta....er, 'misunderstandings.' :)

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And how about we discuss actual misrepresentation of LDS doctrine, such as Billy's claim that LDS have a works-BASED soteriology?

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Mormonism is a works based salvation Jeff. That is not a misrepresentation that is simply a fact. In order to be exalted faith along with works of righteousness are required. Contrast this to Christianity which teaches that we are saved by faith and NOT by works.

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Spencer W Kimball--Miracle of Forgiveness
"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and ***ures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal." (p. 208)

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Mormonism is a works based salvation Jeff. That is not a misrepresentation that is simply a fact.

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No, you are still misrepresenting the BASIS of, or FOUNDATION of, salvation in LDS doctrine. The correct answer is "CHRIST-based salvation." Or, if you want to get more specific, "CHRIST'S ATONEMENT-based salvation," since thanks to Christ and His atonement, salvation is possible and is available to all of us.

But if you insist on playing the misrepresentation game, then 2 can play, of course, as you can see in the following representation of your beliefs:

You have a DEAD FAITH-based soteriology. You believe that salvation is based on dead faith.

(Dead faith is faith that is so lame that obedience and charity don't accompany it)

In other words, you don't believe that CHRIST is the basis or source of salvation--dead faith is.

Now, how would you feel if I said "That is not a misrepresentation that is simply a fact" ???

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But if you insist on playing the misrepresentation game

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I have never misrepresented your position. You believe in a works based salvation/exaltation which is faith PLUS lots of works in order to be saved.

Tell me Jeff what differentiates a person who ends up in the Terrestrial Kingdom from a person who ends up in the Celestial kingdom?

What differentiates a person who ends up in the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom verses a person to goes to the top level of the Celestial Kingdom?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I have never misrepresented your position.

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Except for pretty much every time you post, that is...

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You believe in a works based salvation/exaltation which is faith PLUS lots of works in order to be saved.

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Then YOU believe in a dead-faith-based salvation which is faith alone--no obedience, no Jesus, no grace, no atonement, just faith. You believe that the BASIS for salvation is mere faith.

Oh, and I have never misrepresented your position.

See? I can play your game at LEAST as well as you can. And yet you insist in wanting to keep playing it.

Sad to see.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Except for pretty much every time you post, that is...

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Then you should be able to back up your claim with actual evidence, but thus far you haven't.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Then YOU believe in a dead-faith-based salvation which is faith alone--no obedience, no Jesus, no grace, no atonement, just faith. You believe that the BASIS for salvation is mere faith.

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Dead faith = No faith.

We are saved by faith and NOT by works. The thief was saved and he didn't have works.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Of course. It would be a true miracle if there has never been a case of a Christian misrepresenting some other group. Look at what Luther said about Jews. Are you claiming Luther wasn't a Christian? Or are you claiming that Luther, a Christian, was correct in what he said about Jews? It's got to be one or the other, so choose ye this day which is the truth.


No. Not always. But if everyone posted links to every single accusation they made about someone else, this would be very boring site.


The NT of the BIBLE ALSO has verses stating that God will judge people based on their works--a happy judgment if their works were good, and a scary judgement if their works were evil.

So you just accused the NT of teaching a works-based soteriology because it contains such verses. Nice! This is what Seebok used to call a scorched-earth strategy, and I used to call the atomic hand grenade attack.

In contrast to that, I offer this: Both the NT and the LDS teach a CHRIST-based soteriology, where CHRIST is the BASIS for any salvation that occurs, because without Christ, no one would be saved. The fact that obedience is one ingredient in the recipe does not make the recipe obedience-BASED, any more than a pinch of salt in a bread recipe makes the bread SALT-based instead of FLOUR-based.

I hope that helped straighten out some misrepresenta....er, 'misunderstandings.' :)

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Look how Briggy misrepresented African Americans! Come on Jeff, the LDS soteriology is a mix of belief in the church, secret rituals, and faith in the priesthood powers. The Jesus of Mormonism is a figment of Joe and Young's imagination.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Show me one doctrine that we have distorted.. I learned what I know about mormonism from MORMONS. In reading the standard works attending Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, MIA, Seminary, Sacrament Meetings, and conferences (Ward, Stake, and General).. I will grant you that there are a lot of different ideas in the LDS church on doctrines. But unless the President of the church judges them as inaccurate or out and out perverted they have as much authority as what you hold to be absolute truth.. There is NOTHING that is mormon doctrine. from the first vision to the final judgment at the end of days. There are as many different doctrines in mormonism as there are mormons.. The sad thing is they are all based on the lies of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

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That is what I thought.. You complain and stomp around saying "You distort that the LDS church teaches". But when it comes down to it you can't point to one doctrine we condemn as being distorted by us.. Did Brigham Young teach that Adam was God? YES! even an apostle of your church admits it.. Young was therefore a false prophet in that he taught in the name of OTHER gods. But your church still claims that he was a prophet and even quotes his teachings.. There is no distortion of mormonism being done by non mormons, the history and doctrines held today by mormonism is a distortion of mormonism.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

That is what I thought.. You complain and stomp around saying "You distort that the LDS church teaches". But when it comes down to it you can't point to one doctrine we condemn as being distorted by us.. Did Brigham Young teach that Adam was God? YES! even an apostle of your church admits it.. Young was therefore a false prophet in that he taught in the name of OTHER gods. But your church still claims that he was a prophet and even quotes his teachings.. There is no distortion of mormonism being done by non mormons, the history and doctrines held today by mormonism is a distortion of mormonism.. IHS jim

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Very valid point Jim!

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[nrajeffreturns;145450]He also knows that it wasn't HIM who created you and all other baby humans as evil beings.

If God is good, then He didn't create any evil beings. So your Calvinism is wrong and unbiblical right there.

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God didn't create man to be evil, I agree, all Christians agree with that. Man has become evil on his own by tuning away from God and bowing to the authority of Satan. The heart of men (Our nature) has been corrupted because of that. We are all living in bodies of death because of that. We all sin, not to become sinners but because sinning is what id natural for a race like man to do because his first thoughts are for evil. I still hold up the FACT that babies (two and three year olds) will lie to try to stay out of trouble.. If they weren't corrupt the truth would be all they could tell. And this FACT agrees with God's word that ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory..

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So you're saying that you were not being obedient when you turned against LDS doctrines?

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Obediently keeping God's commandments? I have never been obedient in relations to the whole requirements of God. I was and am true to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in abandoning error and submitting to Jesus by His Grace though faith that He gave to me.. Even that faith was a gift of God.

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Billy says that there is a way other than Jesus that leads to eternal life.

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Nonsense!

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That doesn't prove that your belief--that God created all human babies evil--is correct.

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God created our spirits within us.. The heart, our being was already there and it was evil due to the parentage of our human parents. It's like clean pure water and water taken from a pool of sewage water that hasn't been mixed together.. The whole mixture is polluted not just the sewage water.. It must all be cleansed.. Yes, our God created spirits are created clean, our physical bodies are corrupt. When they are united making us a living being the whole is corrupt. ALL HAVE SINNED! I chose to believe God; you have chosen to believe that He is a liar.. I pray you repent from that position.


If that is true, then there's a whole lotta anti-LDS folks who have sinned.

I don't know any anti-LDS folks, at least in the Church. All of us when exposed to the doctrines of mormonism become anti-LDS doctrine.. No matter all of us anti LDS Doctrine Christian or Christians that don't know or understand mormon doctrine are sinners by our very nature. We have by faith in Jesus claimed the promise of God given in His word that all of us that believe in Him will not perish but have everlasting live.. And when does the Holy Spirit tell us that we have that gift? When we believe in Jesus (1John 5:13). Tell me how many LDS are sinners? I'll bet it's a lot less than the number of Christian that are.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

God didn't create man to be evil, I agree, all Christians agree with that.

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Do all Christians agree that the instant God created YOU, He made you evil? Let's take a close look, using logic, at your Calvinistic idea:

---You believe that God created Adam and Eve as GOOD people, people who were good by nature and NOT EVIL.

---You believe that Adam and Eve REMAINED good, and kept that nature, until they disobeyed God.

---You believe that it was not until they disobeyed God that they became evil.

---But you don't allow any of their descendants to have that same chance, since you believe that their descendants, starting with Cain & Abel, were evil by nature the instant they were created, even though they had done nothing wrong to earn that nature.

---So you believe that the only humans to be evil by nature because of something they did, were Adam and Eve. All the rest of the human race is evil by nature because of something their ANCESTORS did.

Does that make sense?

or "Nonsense!" ??

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God created our spirits within us.

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And He, being omnipotent, had the ability to create our spirits as GOOD ones, just like He did with Adam and Eve's spirits.
Why would God allow THEM to be created with a GOOD nature, and allow that good nature to remain until they chose to sin--but FORCE the rest of us to have an EVIL nature even BEFORE we had done anything wrong?

Does that make any sense?

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ALL HAVE SINNED!

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Even babies who die at the age of 3 days? Even Baby Jesus, before His first birthday?
IMO, you are wrong because you inferred an extreme, literalist meaning to the phrase "All have sinned."

I pray you repent from that position.

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I don't know any anti-LDS folks

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So you don't know anyone who is against Joseph Smith, who was the first LDS? It's good to know that you don't have anything against him personally. Some of your rhetoric against him personally might lead some readers to think that you are against him personally. Calling a person a liar, a murderer, etc. seems pretty personal. In fact, on Carm it would be called a personal attack I think. So it's good to know that you are not against any LDS person, including the first LDS.

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Tell me how many LDS are sinners? I'll bet it's a lot less than the number of Christian that are.. IHS jim

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Numerically, there are fewer LDS than there are worldwide Christians, so yeah, there aren't as many LDS sinners as there are total Christian sinners. But as a percentage, it would be the same: 100% of LDS who have reached a state of maturity to be accountable and who have then knowingly disobeyed a commandment, have sinned, just like with Christendom in general.

And, the number of LDS babies who died in infancy who had sinned before they died, is the same as the number of total babies worldwide who sinned before they died in infancy:


ZERO.

I hope you repent of the sin of branding them sinners.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

---You believe that Adam and Eve REMAINED good, and kept that nature, until they disobeyed God.
the only humans to be evil by nature because of something they did, were Adam and Eve. All the rest of the human race is evil by nature because of something their ANCESTORS did.

Does that make sense?

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We are all sinners at heart Jeff but the part that you left out is that Christ atoned for our sins and every single person who comes to Him by faith will be saved.

The reason that Christians believe that we are all sinners is because the Bible teaches that we are all sinners. Here are a couple of verses that touch on this subject.

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Psalm 51:Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Ephesians 2:
1. And you were dead in your tresp***es and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest

Romans 3
9*What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10*as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

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Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

We are all sinners at heart Jeff

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Who created our hearts? Do you really want to believe that God created your heart evil from the instant He created you? Wouldn't it be more like God's nature, since He is a GOOD God, to create your heart GOOD just like He created Adam and Eve's hearts?

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but the part that you left out is that Christ atoned for our sins

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"OUR sins" ?? Have you finally accepted the true doctrine that Christ atoned for everyone's sins?

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The reason that Christians believe that we are all sinners is because the Bible teaches that we are all sinners.

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If you can find a verse that actually states that babies who died at 3 days of age had somehow figured out how to sin, and which lists the sins they committed, I will buy that Bible from you.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Who created our hearts? Do you really want to believe that God created your heart evil from the instant He created you? Wouldn't it be more like God's nature, since He is a GOOD God, to create your heart GOOD just like He created Adam and Eve's hearts?

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Adam and Eve were created perfect. Because of their choice to disobey God they fell and because of that decision we have received a sinful nature that was p***ed down to us. God has provided a way for us by sending his Son to die for us and by placing our faith in Him we can be saved. This is good news--for those who accept his offer. When we are born again God give us a new nature and a new heart.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

"OUR sins" ?? Have you finally accepted the true doctrine that Christ atoned for everyone's sins?

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Christ paid for the sins of those who come to Him--"US". Christ did not pay for the sins of those who reject Him--if He did then they would also go to heaven BECAUSE they would be seen as sinless in the eyes of God because their sins would have been paid for--but the Bible doesn't teach this Jeff.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If you can find a verse that actually states that babies who died at 3 days of age had somehow figured out how to sin, and which lists the sins they committed, I will buy that Bible from you.

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Jeff I have already given you multiple verses that plainly state that we ALL sin. You have just chosen to disbelieve what the Bible teaches based on your personal feelings rather than on what the word of God says.

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Psalm 51:Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Ephesians 2:
1. And you were dead in your tresp***es and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest

Romans 3
9*What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10*as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

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Bump for Jeff.

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if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

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If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.

It is WRONG, and unCHRISTIAN, to punish a baby. One reason is that the baby didn't do anything wrong. Another reason is that even IF a baby could actually manage to do something that is against God's will, the baby didn't do it on purpose, and didn't even KNOW he/she was doing something wrong.

Therefore, it is atrocious parenting, bordering on child abuse, to punish babies.

The REAL God of the New Testament would never advocate child abuse. Read your Bible again, and try to find verses where Jesus advocated child abuse. You won't find such a verse, IMO.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.

Sin is willful transgression of the Law. For instance, willfully following a pedophile would be sinful.

It is WRONG, and unCHRISTIAN, to punish a baby. One reason is that the baby didn't do anything wrong. Another reason is that even IF a baby could actually manage to do something that is against God's will, the baby didn't do it on purpose, and didn't even KNOW he/she was doing something wrong.

Is it also wrong to had over a 14 year old female child to a pedophile?

Therefore, it is atrocious parenting, bordering on child abuse, to punish babies.

It's a criminal act to facilitate sexual abuse of children.

The REAL God of the New Testament would never advocate child abuse. Read your Bible again, and try to find verses where Jesus advocated child abuse. You won't find such a verse, IMO.

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Yes , and the real God of the New Testament would never, ever ask anybody to believe a pedophile like Joseph Smith - someone who claimed aN ANGEL of God was going to slay him if he didn't hop in the sack with numerous teenagers and married women. You'll know they by their fruit - look at his disgusting fruit.

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[nrajeffreturns;145586]Do all Christians agree that the instant God created YOU, He made you evil? Let's take a close look, using logic, at your Calvinistic idea:

---You believe that God created Adam and Eve as GOOD people, people who were good by nature and NOT EVIL.

---You believe that Adam and Eve REMAINED good, and kept that nature, until they disobeyed God.

---You believe that it was not until they disobeyed God that they became evil.

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When did you see me say that God made anything evil. As for the rest of your post you are correct. We all became evil because of that first sin.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned

But I guess you wish to set the scripture aside because you don't like the idea by Adam's sin that sin came into the world and because ALL have sinned death p***es upon All men.. In case you don't know even infants are subject to death because ALL have sinned.. Unlike you I don't make up my own personal doctrine on this subject. I get that from the God breathed scripture. Where you get your doctrines on who is a sinner and why we sin I have no idea it surely isn't from the Bible.

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--But you don't allow any of their descendants to have that same chance, since you believe that their descendants, starting with Cain & Abel, were evil by nature the instant they were created, even though they had done nothing wrong to earn that nature.

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Again I turn to the authority of God's word, instead of being like you and inventing my own gospel. God has told us that all have sinned and that sin entered the world by one man and death by sin, for all have sinned.. I see no exceptions for anyone. Not Cain, not Able, not you, or me, not even a new born baby. Must be that being a sinner has more to do with having a human nature more than it does the process of doing evil.. Sin is what we are more than what we do.

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---So you believe that the only humans to be evil by nature because of something they did, were Adam and Eve. All the rest of the human race is evil by nature because of something their ANCESTORS did.

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isn't that what that p***age taught to us? That by one man sin entered the world and death by sin and since we all die we are all sinners? You keep complaining about the inspired word of God from the vantage point of your own logic. For a man that says he believes in the teachings of God given in the Bible you really complain a lot about this teaching.. All means all, it doesn't mean some, it doesn't even mean most, it means ALL..

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Does that make sense?

or "Nonsense!" ??

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Because you deny God's word with your "logic" it doesn't make sense, it is complete and utter nonsense.. IHS jim
And He, being omnipotent, had the ability to create our spirits as GOOD ones, just like He did with Adam and Eve's spirits.
Why would God allow THEM to be created with a GOOD nature, and allow that good nature to remain until they chose to sin--but FORCE the rest of us to have an EVIL nature even BEFORE we had done anything wrong?

Does that make any sense?


Even babies who die at the age of 3 days? Even Baby Jesus, before His first birthday?
IMO, you are wrong because you inferred an extreme, literalist meaning to the phrase "All have sinned."

I pray you repent from that position.


So you don't know anyone who is against Joseph Smith, who was the first LDS? It's good to know that you don't have anything against him personally. Some of your rhetoric against him personally might lead some readers to think that you are against him personally. Calling a person a liar, a murderer, etc. seems pretty personal. In fact, on Carm it would be called a personal attack I think. So it's good to know that you are not against any LDS person, including the first LDS.


Numerically, there are fewer LDS than there are worldwide Christians, so yeah, there aren't as many LDS sinners as there are total Christian sinners. But as a percentage, it would be the same: 100% of LDS who have reached a state of maturity to be accountable and who have then knowingly disobeyed a commandment, have sinned, just like with Christendom in general.

And, the number of LDS babies who died in infancy who had sinned before they died, is the same as the number of total babies worldwide who sinned before they died in infancy:


ZERO.

I hope you repent of the sin of branding them sinners.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.

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I noticed that you didn't answer my question Jeff.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

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Originally Posted by James Banta

When did you see me say that God made anything evil.

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So you agree that God made you good, just like He made Adam and Eve good? Better watch it--that's an LDS belief,,not orthodox Calvinism. Calvinists, Inc. may revoke your membership! :)

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I noticed that you didn't answer my question Jeff.

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Oh, I did answer and REFUTE your false belief that babies need to be punished.