was lucifer created evil?

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Originally Posted by James Banta

No, not the brain. I am speaking the the self awareness that is inherent in all men.. The soul is the feeling, thought, and action of a person the relationship of the intellectual and the physical.. Animals have such as part of what they are. They feel fear. The feel anger. They even feel tenderness and love.. What they don't know and have no way of knowing is that God is.. It is not that which is given by God.. The spirit that was placed into us by God is incorporeal part of humans that brings our essence of what and who we are. The part of us that makes us conscience of God.. You can disagree with that and call man the combination of Body, Mind, and Spirit.. If you wish.. You can say you have 12 eggs and I can say I have a dozen.. It means the say thing.. IHS jim

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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Now let's see if we're in agreement on this issue as much as you may think.

I believe there are only 2 main parts to us, or to each man and woman.

1) A body (which is composed of our brain and a lot of other parts), and
2) A spirit (with our spirit being what some people refer to as our mind).

I believe our soul is the comprehensive "essence" of what we are, which in my condition now is a combination of both my spirit (or mind) and my body, but which when I die will be only a spirit until I'm translated or resurrected such that my spirit and resurrected body will re-unite and become glorified to never again be divided.

Now, let's get back to the questions I was asking you earlier:

Do you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind of a child ???

You've already stated that by "mind" you aren't referring to our "brain", so are you saying that you think mortal men and women procreate both a body and the "mind" of a child ???

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

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Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Now let's see if we're in agreement on this issue as much as you may think.

I believe there are only 2 main parts to us, or to each man and woman.

1) A body (which is composed of our brain and a lot of other parts), and
2) A spirit (with our spirit being what some people refer to as our mind).

I believe our soul is the comprehensive "essence" of what we are, which in my condition now is a combination of both my spirit (or mind) and my body, but which when I die will be only a spirit until I'm translated or resurrected such that my spirit and resurrected body will re-unite and become glorified to never again be divided.

Now, let's get back to the questions I was asking you earlier:

Do you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind of a child ???

You've already stated that by "mind" you aren't referring to our "brain", so are you saying that you think mortal men and women procreate both a body and the "mind" of a child ???

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

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Yes I really believe that the mind is part of the procreative process.. The mind develops in a child's brain.. It is the total of what they are taught and what they experience.. Dogs have mind but as much as they can learn they will never become God aware.. The part of us that separates us from animals is the spirit that is created by God withing a person.. This part of what we are is what DOES make us God aware.. Our spirits longs to be with their maker. Mormons do like the idea that everything was spiritual made before the world was but the only verses in the Bible that speaks to where our spirits came from and what the order of creation is all disagree with that false teaching.. The Natural is first and then the spiritual.. That is directly from the Holy Spirit.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

The point is you are as guilty of the sin of your children as God is guilty of the sin of mankind..

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---No, wrong. We are NOT ABLE to know which sins our children will commit, and we are not able to prevent those sins by creating our kids any OTHER way. We are not the Evangelical version of God, who is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your version of God IS all that, and therefore IS able to alter the programming of ANY of His creations, before He even creates them. We do NOT have those abilities. We are only able to bring our children into this world and do our best to teach them HOW to obey God's will. We cannot pre-program them so they will do it. But YOUR version of God IS able to do that. So if His creations do what He programmed them to do, then He is 100% responsible for that. Who is responsible for the GOOD things you do, Jim? YOU? I don't think you will agree with that. You give 100% of the credit to God. So you must give 100% of the BLAME for the BAD things you do, to Him as well.

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I was speaking about your heresy of blaming God for the sin of the world..

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--No, I don't blame the REAL God for the sin of the world. I only blame YOUR (incorrect) version of Him.

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[nrajeff;42100]---No, wrong. We are NOT ABLE to know which sins our children will commit, and we are not able to prevent those sins by creating our kids any OTHER way. We are not the Evangelical version of God, who is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your version of God IS all that, and therefore IS able to alter the programming of ANY of His creations, before He even creates them. We do NOT have those abilities. We are only able to bring our children into this world and do our best to teach them HOW to obey God's will. We cannot pre-program them so they will do it. But YOUR version of God IS able to do that. So if His creations do what He programmed them to do, then He is 100% responsible for that. Who is responsible for the GOOD things you do, Jim? YOU? I don't think you will agree with that. You give 100% of the credit to God. So you must give 100% of the BLAME for the BAD things you do, to Him as well.

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You are not able to know this even though the Holy Spirit made it clear in the words of the Apostle James:

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That pretty well spells it out doesn't? When you bring a child into the world you know they will be as guilty before a Holy God as a murderer, or an adulterer. No matter how good they may appear for man's perspective.. Because you know this the sin is on you for bringing them into the world. You can't have it both ways if God knows that a person will be evil and doesn't prevent them from being you think they should live you want to blame God and totally eliminate free agency. Then both you and God are responsible for the sins of your children sense you have full knowledge that they will sin and that sin will be just a serious and murder in the eyes of a Holy God.... AS I said before that whole premise is nonsense.. Knowing of future sin is NOT responsibility for it commission..

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--No, I don't blame the REAL God for the sin of the world. I only blame YOUR (incorrect) version of Him.

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If I thought for a second that God is the gods of mormonism I would think that he is responsible for the sin of the world.. That Mormon god forced Adam into earth or break God's Law and take the fruit.. They were contradictory commands.. Both couldn't be kept.. The BofM said that:

2 Nephi 2:25
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

According to your book of scripture Adam had to sin in order to bring mankind into the world.. Please tell me this isn't a contradictory command.. Tell me that God wanted Adam to turn away from Him and toward a sinful world.. After all he becames just like God when he ate the fruit, didn't he? He knew good from evil.. But the cost of being like God was death.. The mormon god was involved. Adam's sin was forced on Him. It wasn't just knowing tht Adam would sin Adam was not given a choice. He was trapped in a catch 22. The Mormon god forced Adam to do it. He wanted Adam to sin, he needed Adam to sin.. It was built into his plan that Adan had to sin.. The mormon god required sin to make a plan of his will work.. Don't eat the fruit and Adam is sinning by not having children. Eat the fruit and go directly against the command not to do so.. The mormon God Force Adam to sin. He actually built sin into his plan.. A god that works through the commission od sin.. That is garbage doctrine..

The Christian God's will was that we live forever with Him in a Paradise. In eternal love and joy.. Sin destroyed that perfect will of God so God in his eternal Mercy and Love devised the cross.. You lay in terrific sin before God and then as a "good" mormon tell God that you are worthy of entering His house and baring His name? And you call me wrong.. In God's eyes you are a filthy person, The great prophet Isaiah saw himself to be a liar before God. I liar who lived among liars.. He recognized his horrible sinful place before God. When will you do the same..

Yes we give God the credit for the good we do.. As we do that we are tools in His hand.. What is someone who is not a child of God does good? Bill Gates does a lot of GOOD in the world and take the credit for himself. You don't see a difference here? For the evil I do I blame my fallen heart.. My corrupt flesh.. Did you teach your children to lie Jeff? I know you didn't but they still lied didn't they? It is built into them to do evil.. They inherited man's desire for evil. Adam brought that on each of us.. God came into the world to correct that mess we caused.. You go right on blaming God for the evil in your heart. I am sure at the judgment that many will point their Finger at God and blame Him as they are cast into the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

So you think you're in good company, then, huh?

love,
stem

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No, since scripture declares that God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL...that can ONLY mean that He didn't "create" evil. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

JD, you continually think you can go outside of logic and ***ume your beliefs are somehow derived from the Bible. It is your belief system that, if taken to its logical conclusion, that forces God to the be source or author of evil, not the Bible. Not only is it illogical to ***ume your beliefs, as a whole, are derived from the BIble, but it is also illogical for you to jump outside of your belief system and draw a conclusion that does not follow. I mean keep it up if you want...it only confirms the error of your theology...but you should realize, doing so only cheats you of being able to thinking logically for yourself.

love,
stem

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It's been explained to you several times now: SECONDARY CREATION.

Did God "create" Beethoven's fifth symphony?

Just answer that, ok, stem?

AND...does the Bible declare God NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL or NOT???

Just answer that, ok, stem?

That's all fine by me, JD, since my belief system does not force upon God the creation of evil as yours does. But pointing out the very anti-biblical message of your belief system does not help your cause. So, take a deep breath and engage the argument. It'll do you some good, particularly your ability to grasp the concept of logic.

love,
stem

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

It's been explained to you several times now: SECONDARY CREATION.

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That's not an explanation, JD, its been nothing more than a cop out.

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Did God "create" Beethoven's fifth symphony?

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Interesting question in light of my argument. Let's see...So if God knew exactly what Beethoven would create before God created Him ex nihilo, as your belief system would ahve it...then this symphony didn't originate in Beethoven's mind, but God's. Afterall God knew the symphony long before Beethoven did, no?

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Just answer that, ok, stem?

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AND...does the Bible declare God NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL or NOT???

Just answer that, ok, stem?

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I would say the Bible does not address the topic. But sadly, your belief system does force God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem

You've missed my point completely, Andy. I do not attribute to God evil designs, like your belief system does if taken to its logical conclusion. I find your belief system to have too many problems to be believable. I humbly accept God and HIs pronouncements.

love,
stem

No stem....you are wrong....that is not the logical conclusion for the Jesus authored Christian Church.

What you say is your twisting Christian beliefs to try and make your cult somehow (though impossible) seem believable.

What do you know about logic anyways...you are entrenched in the evil lds mormon cult!

If you had an ounce of logic, you would readily discern the deceptive, lying motivations of the con man and false prophet, Smith.

It is very obvious to us Christians.

Andy

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

That's all fine by me, JD, since my belief system does not force upon God the creation of evil as yours does. But pointing out the very anti-biblical message of your belief system does not help your cause. So, take a deep breath and engage the argument. It'll do you some good, particularly your ability to grasp the concept of logic.

love,
stem

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Your belief system is NOT BIBLICAL. I don't give a rat's patootie what you believe, stem. I've already explained to you the nature of SECONDARY CREATION...but you keep deflecting 'cause you have no reply. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Father_JD
It's been explained to you several times now: SECONDARY CREATION.

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That's not an explanation, JD, its been nothing more than a cop out.

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That IS the explanation, stem. God did NOT create evil. God DID create Lucifer who CHOSE to be evil. Evil is SECONDARY. Got it now?? :rolleyes:


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Did God "create" Beethoven's fifth symphony?

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Interesting question in light of my argument. Let's see...So if God knew exactly what Beethoven would create before God created Him ex nihilo, as your belief system would ahve it

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Ex nihilo or out of pre-existing "matter"...it's IRRELEVANT. You supposedly believe that the Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT, no?

Yes or no??

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...then this symphony didn't originate in Beethoven's mind, but God's. Afterall God knew the symphony long before Beethoven did, no?

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So you're really saying that God wrote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony?? That's your position? Why do you think because God KNOWS everything in advance that MUST mean that He "created it"??

That's a non-sequitur, stemster.


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Just answer that, ok, stem?

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AND...does the Bible declare God NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL or NOT???

Just answer that, ok, stem?

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I would say the Bible does not address the topic. But sadly, your belief system does force God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

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The Bible declares God is HOLY, WITHOUT SIN, CAN NOT SIN, IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL and you posit, "the Bible does not address the topic"??? How is anyone supposed to tkae you seriously when you write such nonsense??? :eek:

I replied appropriately to your deflection of appealing to secondary causes, JD. I explained how your appeal to secondary causes does not address the thrust of my argument. To which you replied....

love,
stem

Very appropriate reply, Andy. Seeing as you nor any of your partners here can adequately address the issues I've raised it would be best for you to whine about me in particular as reply. Good show, you've helped me more than you know.

love,
stem

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

Originally Posted by Father_JD
That IS the explanation, stem. God did NOT create evil. God DID create Lucifer who CHOSE to be evil. Evil is SECONDARY. Got it now?? :rolleyes:

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I got your cop out long ago, JD. Again you did not address the arguments I've raised in appealing to your cop out. So its up to you at this point.

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Ex nihilo or out of pre-existing "matter"...it's IRRELEVANT. You supposedly believe that the Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT, no?

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So you won't answer a simple question huh? Instead you'd like to pose an unrelated question to me huh? Okay, let's allow you your attempted escape route in changing the subject here by answering your question. God is omniscient yes. I know you'll attempt to run from the question and topic, but so be it.

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So you're really saying that God wrote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony?? That's your position? Why do you think because God KNOWS everything in advance that MUST mean that He "created it"??

That's a non-sequitur, stemster.

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I didn't say God wrote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. I reasoned to a logical conclusion based on your belief system. And you have run from answering the question again, JD. Did God not know Beethoven's Fifth Symphony before God created Beethoven out of nothing?

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The Bible declares God is HOLY, WITHOUT SIN, CAN NOT SIN, IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL and you posit, "the Bible does not address the topic"??? How is anyone supposed to tkae you seriously when you write such nonsense??? :eek:

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Thanks, JD, again for declaring how unbiblical your belief system is. But, let's just leave it there for now.

love,
stem

You never applied appropriately to any part of this thread.

You have been shown that everything that God created was perfect and that the angels and mankind were created with free will and that evil was a by product of creation but you just close your eyes to the truth and go on and on with your games.

You have no argument and have been proven wrong, so admit your mistake and learn from your error or move along and quit deflecting this thread.

Andy

Here, Andy, I'm willing to hold your hand through this process, okay?

Before creating Lucifer ex nihilo, did God know each and every act Lucifer would do?

Could God have created Lucifer to not do evil, or could God have decided to just not create Lucifer knowing he was just going to be evil anyway?

I'll continue in this way, hoping you still answer the above questions....Let's see you address the argument this time okay? God created Lucifer out of nothing...He knew before creating Lucifer out of nothing all things Lucifer would do. All things Lucifer would do, are because God conceived of those things. You see if God created absolutely, as your belief system would have it, then all creations He conceived of are absolutely a result of His conception. THere really is no way around this. I welcome your efforts to refute my argument. But, it seems, you and JD have failed to actually address my argument and instead have gone on with cop outs while leaving the argument untouched.

love,
stem

What part of free will do you not get?

You have no argument...only your trying to judge God and blaming Him for what His creation does and that makes you (mod edit - an unbeliever).

This is a forum to expose the lie of mormonism....mod edit Your premise is false and has been proven wrong over and over.

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO JUDGE GOD?

Learn to read God's one and only Word He has given us...The Bible while you have breath. As it stands, you are mormon and that makes you a non Christian without life. mod edit - No personal attacks
Repent or you will not get the reward you have been deceived to think you will get.

Andy

(Mod edit - "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."
Luke 6:27-29
:(

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Originally Posted by akaSeerone

What part of free will do you not get?

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I get it. Incidentally I also authored a thread here which presents another untouched argument in regards to the problems of free will in consideration of your belief system. If you wish you can bring up your concerns over there.

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You have no argument...only your trying to judge God and blaming Him for what His creation does and that makes you a heretic.

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I did post an argument...you did not, at least not yet.

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This is a forum to expose the lie of mormonism....you do not make the rules here, the Christian, Jill did that, so you can continue to ask all you want....Your premise is false and has been proven wrong over and over.

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No body has proven any part of my argument wrong...and you ran from answering a few questions I offered to help you engage the argument. Why is that?

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WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO JUDGE GOD?

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I don't judge God. I judge your pathetic ideas of Him.

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Learn to read God's one and only Word He has given us...The Bible while you have breath. As it stands, you are mormon and that makes you a non Christian without life. A hopeless wreck.

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Great...so you have decided to get to the name calling--hopeless wreck. Adorable stuff, Andy.

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Repent or you will not get the reward you have been deceived to think you will get.

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Precious stuff.

love,
stem

Hey....you are the one pretending to be Christian...so yes, you are a hopelessly lost.

Andy

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Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Hey....you are the one pretending to be Christian...so yes, you are a hopelessly lost.

Andy

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Andy,
You're a corrupt and apostate Christian who believes you are a true Christian.

Try to not judge others based on what you REALLY are.

Okay ?

Why do you lie like that BM?

You are neither Christian or mormon and should not even be posting here.

Besides that you have no idea what you are talking about.

And that is fact BM.

Andy

Oh, ANdy, you are a joy to have around (Russell complained in the other thread about not being liked by others, so I consoled him. I"ll do the same here since you guys seem to feel you don't get enough of it from us.) I think your attempt to bully ol' Batman right on outta here ranks up there in the top ten of posts that help out the LDS side more than hinders it.

love,
stem

Thanks for showing everyone just how out of touch with reality one must get to try and hopelessly defend the anti-Christian lds mormon cult.

Nothing you said in your post was true.

All you did is make things up to try to make us Christians look bad, but it just shows how desperate you guys are getting and it will back fire on you.

The writing is on the wall....thanks to the internet, mormonism is on it's way out.

What you need to do is repent and ask God to forgive you and accept Jesus...THE Jesus of the Bible other wise you will remain lost.

Andy

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am a solid Christian in right standing with God through Jesus, the Christ.

I judge others by what the Bible say, so what you said is a lie and it will come back to haunt you.

Andy

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Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Thanks for showing everyone just how out of touch with reality one must get to try and hopelessly defend the anti-Christian lds mormon cult.

Nothing you said in your post was true.

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Let's see I said, "Oh, ANdy, you are a joy to have around..." But that is not true, in Andy's subjective opinion it seems.

Just for fun I also said,

"(Russell complained in the other thread about not being liked by others, so I consoled him. I"ll do the same here since you guys seem to feel you don't get enough of it from us.) I think your attempt to bully ol' Batman right on outta here ranks up there in the top ten of posts that help out the LDS side more than hinders it."

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All you did is make things up to try to make us Christians look bad, but it just shows how desperate you guys are getting and it will back fire on you.

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I had no intention of making anyone look bad...you're seeing that probably because of the things you are saying.

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The writing is on the wall....thanks to the internet, mormonism is on it's way out.

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Whooofff...what a prediction. When shall we expect this exit of mormonism deal?

love,
stem

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Originally Posted by akaSeerone

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am a solid Christian in right standing with God through Jesus, the Christ.

I judge others by what the Bible say, so what you said is a lie and it will come back to haunt you.

Andy

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That's merely grandstanding and deflection. Good show, Andy...again you're only helping my case here.

love,
stem

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

That's merely grandstanding and deflection. Good show, Andy...again you're only helping my case here.

love,
stem

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How is telling the truth "grandstanding?"

Andy

You sadly demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about:

IF God is OMNISCIENT (which IS what the Bible teaches, stemmy), he most certainly knew that Beethoven would write his fifth symphony, and had to have known every note of it.

Whether created ex nihilo or by some cosmic sex between your Mormo-god and one of his celestial sweeties, doesn't affect the outcome.

It's IRRELEVANT.

God created Beethoven (indirectly) who in turn wrote his Fifth Symphony.

Beethoven's music is SECONDARY CREATION.

Got it? Finally?????

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

I replied appropriately to your deflection of appealing to secondary causes, JD. I explained how your appeal to secondary causes does not address the thrust of my argument. To which you replied....

love,
stem

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You've done no such thing, stem...only in your own mind...:rolleyes:

Did God create Beethoven's symphonies? If Beethoven was an Evangelical, his answer would probably be "yes" since Evans typically give ALL--100%--of the credit for any good thing they do, to God and to no one else. As for other Christians, such as the LDS, I think that many if not most of them would allow for the possibility that God inspired many composers like He inspired prophets and other saints. So in the case of composers like Beethoven or Handel, an LDS person probably would have no problem saying that the inspiration for the symphonies maybe came from God. If the Evans are right, and God is the "first cause" of all that is good in this universe, when who is the first cause of all that is BAD? Who dreamed up the universe in the first place? You will never let Stem walk you toward the conclusion of where your theology logically leads, because the ramifications destroy your beliefs about God.

lds are not Christians so you got that wrong again.

God gave Beethoven a brain....Beethoven created his own symphonies.

And Smith created an anti-Christ sham of a "religion."

Andy

You are getting into trouble because you are ignoring what the Bible says when it refutes your false doctrine.

1.) God gave the Angels and man free will.

2.) Along with God giving Angels and man free will, God will not go back on His Word. When God declares something or creates something it is yes and Amen.

Andy

Okay I'll hold your hand through this too, Andy, just so you understand it. Your ***umption of what is truth pounded as fact, without reason or logic to back up your claims is merely grandstanding--akin to the gorilla who pounds his chest in the forest because he thinks he's the toughest.

love,
stem

Yes, your deflection has already been stated, JD. Its not so much that God knew the fifth symphony (BTW thanks for finally answering the question) but that the origin of the symphony is not attributed to Beethoven, according toyour belief system, but to God's conception. Remember, according to your belief system God created out of nothing. Likewise Lucifer's evil deeds did not originate anywhere but in God's conception, according to your belief system...secondary creation notwithstanding as an attempted cop out.

I know you don't get it finally, but I'll repeat it just in case something clicks. You seem to think your belief system and my belief system agree on this point. Not so, JD, for me there was plenty in existence when God initiated the creation. For you, only God existed, thus all things that came to be originated in His own conception--including Lucifer's evil and Beethoven's fifth symphony.

love,
stem

Andy, you are in clear disagreement with your master, JD. He says God did create Beethoven's fifth Symphony. You guys ought to get together on this.

love,
stem

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

Andy, you are in clear disagreement with your master, JD. He says God did create Beethoven's fifth Symphony. You guys ought to get together on this.

love,
stem

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I said nothing of the sort. I said that God created Beethoven who in turn wrote his Fifth Symphony...

SECONDARY CREATION which you run from, stemmy.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

Did God create Beethoven's symphonies? If Beethoven was an Evangelical, his answer would probably be "yes" since Evans typically give ALL--100%--of the credit for any good thing they do, to God and to no one else. As for other Christians, such as the LDS, I think that many if not most of them would allow for the possibility that God inspired many composers like He inspired prophets and other saints. So in the case of composers like Beethoven or Handel, an LDS person probably would have no problem saying that the inspiration for the symphonies maybe came from God. If the Evans are right, and God is the "first cause" of all that is good in this universe, when who is the first cause of all that is BAD? Who dreamed up the universe in the first place? You will never let Stem walk you toward the conclusion of where your theology logically leads, because the ramifications destroy your beliefs about God.

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No. Beethoven wrote his symphonies. This is called SECONDARY CREATION:

God created Beethoven who in turn created his symphonies. Why is this so hard for Mormons to understand?? Of course the "inspiration" came from God.

Your apparent DENIAL of God's OMNISCIENCE creates greater problems for you than your philosophical question regarding the nature of evil, jeff. :eek:

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

Yes, your deflection has already been stated, JD. Its not so much that God knew the fifth symphony (BTW thanks for finally answering the question) but that the origin of the symphony is not attributed to Beethoven, according toyour belief system, but to God's conception. Remember, according to your belief system God created out of nothing. Likewise Lucifer's evil deeds did not originate anywhere but in God's conception, according to your belief system...secondary creation notwithstanding as an attempted cop out.

I know you don't get it finally, but I'll repeat it just in case something clicks. You seem to think your belief system and my belief system agree on this point. Not so, JD, for me there was plenty in existence when God initiated the creation. For you, only God existed, thus all things that came to be originated in His own conception--including Lucifer's evil and Beethoven's fifth symphony.

love,
stem

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No, the origin of Beethoven's symphonies LIE WITH BEETHOVEN. You keep failing to distinguish between omniscience and creation.

God did NOT "conceive" of evil, neither did He create it. He forsaw it and uses it FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES.

Now, is the Mormo-god omnicient or NOT??? :eek:

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

No, the origin of Beethoven's symphonies LIE WITH BEETHOVEN. You keep failing to distinguish between omniscience and creation.

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Let's see if your ***ertion holds up under scrutiny, JD. According to your belief system, did God know every detail of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony before Beethoven himself was created out of nothing? If so, then the actual Symphony was already known and in existence in God's conception previous to Beethoven himself. It would then, be impossible to conclude, logically anyway, that the origin of it is found within Beethoven, for God already conceived of it before Beethoven ever existed.

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God did NOT "conceive" of evil, neither did He create it. He forsaw it and uses it FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES.

Now, is the Mormo-god omnicient or NOT??? :eek:

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Now what kind of game of deflection are you playing now? The same question I've already answered on numerous oc***ions? My goodness, JD, your desperation is telling.

So, before Lucifer or any other being could do anything evil, even before any of them/we were created, God already conceived of evil designs, the very evil designs Lucifer would do, provided Lucifer would ever be created. You seriously are running away from logic in order to avoid this conclusion, JD? Fine by me.

love,
stem