This just in...

you evols think man came from monkeys, but the Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god.

is that all it says?

What do you mean?


im asking if that is all the Bible tells us about how God made us?

The Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god, not in the image of an ape!


How nice,but I was reading in the Bible and I noticed something that i think is very relevant to this topic.
What did you read?

I was reading at Genesis 2 that man is actually made of "dust"

Yes that it true.

So you believe that the Bible tells us that we are both made in the image of God, yet also made of dust?...is that what you believe the Bible is telling us?

Yes...God formed the made out of dust, and we are made in the image of god....so that totally destroys your idea that man evolved from a money.


Fine, fine, now so we both agree that the bible teaches that mad is made from the earth?

Er, what do you mean the earth?

I mean the ground of this planet,we are made from it?


I guess.

Good, so being made in the image of God does not mean that god could not have used the dust of the ground to make us out of then?

No, we are made in the image of god , but it is true also that we are made out of the dust of the ground of the earth.



Good, lets push on then to consider the animals.
Are the animals made out of the earth too?

The animals are not made in the image of God, only man is.

Yes I get that, but are the animals made out of the same source material as humans according to the Bible?

Source material?

Well we have already traced back the story of the creation of humans to the earth itself, I just want to know if the creation of all the animals also cane be traced back to the earth itself....according to the Bible?


Well, it is true that God does command the earth to bring forth the animals, and it also does say clearly that God formed the animals out of the ground of the earth...so I guess humans and animals do share that in common with each other.


Great!

But animals are not made in the image of God!

Thats okay with me, I got no problem with that.
So lets just back-up a moment and get straight what the Bible is teaching as to the origin of life, and what we see is that according to the Bible is that all life, both animal and human, is traced back to a single source, and that source is the earth itself?


I guess that is true, but only we are made in the image of God.

Ok, lets now consider if this is any different at all from what evolution teaches?

Its very different, for evolution teaches we came from monkeys.

Well, thats what a lot of people try to say evolution teaches, but I have to ask, "Is that it?"

What do you mean?

I mean did all human life simple "pop" into existence as a fully formed money that later evolved into a human according to the teaches of evolution?, or was there some evolution before the monkey part thats so popular?

Well I guess the money is said to have evolved too.

Yes, I think you are correct about that.
I agree that according to the teachings of science and evolution we do see that there are earlyer forms of life that are said to have evolved into the "monkey" we always hear about.

So what?

So,I just was wondering, "What came before that?"

Before the money?

Well yes, but then what came before that?..and before that?...and before that?...just keep tracing the evolution of life back untill you get to what source?

Source?

Yes, what is the final source for life on the earth?
What is life's start?...what are the very early smallest building blocks that would go on to evolve into life according to the teachings of evolution.

Well that would be the elements , minerals and stuff that went into the mix that came out later with a thing that was alive I would guess?

Thats a good answer....so, would you agree with me that the final evolutionary source for life on the earth according to the teachings of evolution would be the earth itself?

Yes,,,,I see what you are saying now, and that is correct, evolution will trace back all life to the source being the earth itself, but ast way different than what we read in the Bible...




is it?.....is it really?

the light of the first day was not created but was exposed to the world being created. Jesus is the light of the world. Do you not comprehend?

The clouds didn't disappear until the flood in Noah's days.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Bold type is the typical person that fully trusts the YEC teachers

Normal type = me







You evols think man came from monkeys, but the Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god.

is that all it says?

What do you mean?


im asking if that is all the Bible tells us about how God made us?

The Bible tells us that we are made in the image of god, not in the image of an ape!


How nice,but I was reading in the Bible and I noticed something that I think is very relevant to this topic.

What did you read?

I was reading in Genesis that man is actually made of "dust"

Yes that it true.

So you believe that the Bible tells us that we are both made in the image of God, yet also made of dust?...is that what you believe the Bible is telling us?

Yes...God formed the man out of dust, and we are made in the image of god....so that totally destroys your idea that man evolved from a money.


Fine, fine, now so we both agree that the bible teaches that man is made from the earth?

Er, what do you mean the earth?

I mean the ground of this planet,we are made from it?


I guess.

Good, so being made in the image of God does not mean that god could not have used the dust of the ground to make us out of then?

No, we are made in the image of god , but it is true also that we are made out of the dust of the ground of the earth.



Good, lets push on then to consider the animals.
Are the animals made out of the earth too?

The animals are not made in the image of God, only man is.

Yes I get that, but are the animals made out of the same source material as humans according to the Bible?

Source material?

Well we have already traced back the story of the creation of humans to the earth itself, I just want to know if the creation of all the animals also cane be traced back to the earth itself....according to the Bible?


Well, it is true that God does command the earth to bring forth the animals, and it also does say clearly that God formed the animals out of the ground of the earth...so I guess humans and animals do share that in common with each other.


Great!

But animals are not made in the image of God!

Thats okay with me, I got no problem with that.
So lets just back-up a moment and get straight what the Bible is teaching as to the origin of life, and what we see is that according to the Bible is that all life, both animal and human, is traced back to a single source, and that source is the earth itself?


I guess that is true, but only we are made in the image of God.

Ok, lets now consider if this is any different at all from what evolution teaches?

Its very different, for evolution teaches we came from monkeys.

Well, thats what a lot of people try to say evolution teaches, but I have to ask, "Is that it?"

What do you mean?

I mean did all human life simple "pop" into existence as a fully formed money that later evolved into a human according to the teaches of evolution?, or was there some evolution before the monkey part thats so popular?

Well I guess the monkey is said to have evolved too.

Yes, I think you are correct about that.
I agree that according to the teachings of science and evolution we do see that there are earlyer forms of life that are said to have evolved into the "monkey" we always hear about.

So what?

So,I just was wondering, "What came before that?"

Before the monkey?

Well yes, but then what came before that?..and before that?...and before that?...just keep tracing the evolution of life back untill you get to what source?

Source?

Yes, what is the final source for life on the earth?
What is life's start?...what are the very early smallest building blocks that would go on to evolve into life according to the teachings of evolution.

Well that would be the elements , minerals and stuff that went into the mix that came out later with a thing that was alive I would guess?

Thats a good answer....so, would you agree with me that the final evolutionary source for life on the earth according to the teachings of evolution would be the earth itself?

Yes,,,,I see what you are saying now, and that is correct, evolution will trace back all life to the source being the earth itself, but ast way different than what we read in the Bible...




Oh is it?.....is it really?

Your "mental" filter is what has you confused. God is the source for any light and Jesus is the first light in Genesis.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Your "mental" filter is what has you confused. God is the source for any light and Jesus is the first light in Genesis.

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Saxon, if at any time you read something I have posted that you think the bible does not support?...just ask me to 'Back that up!"...."Show me a verse!" and I will be happy to drop back and supply a verse that supports anything I have said.


But as I dont see any requests yet to back up what i have posted so far...Im going to keep going and build on the post I just wrote above that shows a normal conversation I have had on this topic over the years...

Anything that you say about evolution is not supported by the Bible. if you can't support your comments when you make them I am sure that you won't after the fact. Evolution says we came from lower creatures and the Bible says that God created us from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into us. We did not evolve. Your ancestors may have been apes, mine were men that God created as men.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Anything that you say about evolution is not supported by the Bible. if you can't support your comments when you make them I am sure that you won't after the fact. Evolution says we came from lower creatures and the Bible says that God created us from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into us. We did not evolve. Your ancestors may have been apes, mine were men that God created as men.

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If you have a question or want me to look at a verse or two?...

But if not?
well, then you don't have much to add to our conversation and I will return to just encouraging Disciple to toss a few ideas my way... :)

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Originally Posted by Saxon

I am available Sa****ay and Sunday from 1000 to 2200 (15 and 16 Aug 2015 Atlantic Standard Time). I hope you show up.

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I have never really learned why whenever I have free time on the weekends there simply are never any other people posting on the forum, yet the moment I go back on the road Monday morning and only have my silly cellphone to check the we, suddenly there are tons of new posts and all sorts of things I would love to be able to respond to but simply cant due to the limitations I face on the road.????


I cant say for sure where I will be this weekend, as I have to go do a Kendo armor sparing demonstration in a nearby town, but I can say and be very sure of the fact that I do check this forum for new posts many times a day on Sa****ay as I take little breaks from my chores.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

If it wasn't for evolution why would you think that the days of creation were not 24 hour days?


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I have answered this question a few times already on this same topic so i dont want to bore people with the same drawn-out answer,but the short answer is that
the writer of the Genesis story goes to great care to make sure we know for 100%that the first 6 days of the creation week have ended.
However there are 7 days.....

and there is no ending in the story of genesis to the 7th day.

Nor is there an ending taught for the 7th day at any place in the Old test.

Noris there even a hint that the 7th day has ended at any point in the whole entire bible!


My "crazy" idea is that I simply dont add things to the Bible.






now in response to this many YEC teachers will try all kinds of reasons why what Im saying is not the truth.

They go after the 7th day,,,they try to turn that day into something other than being "a day"

They make it spiritual....
they make it symbolic....
they turn it inside out...
they add a pile of unlisted things to it...

All this in the effort to make it not be the one thing it clearly is -
"A Day"


Its a day with no listed ending.




If someone were to disagree with me?
Fine, just point to the verse that teaches that the 7th Day of the Creation story has ended.






But you got no verse that clearly teaches that the 7th Day has ended?

Then dont ask me to tack-on an ending just on your say-so.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saxon

The clouds didn't disappear until the flood in Noah's days.

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Actuallywhat the Bible says is that the earth was created as a dead and dry world...Then a mist came up from underground and watered the whole earth.
The verse I listed in *** 38 tells us that when the water that covered the earth in genesis came forth, it also wrapped the earth in thick darkness.

Notice that this is NOT talking about the story of the ark, but it tells us clearly that this is when God laid the foundations of the earth....(clearly the same moment in earth's history as the Creation story deals with)



The Bible tells us that the water that covered the earth in genesis "Burst forth"...this is a very good description of what science tells us really happened when water vapor came out via volcanic activity

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Originally Posted by Saxon

How about a verse number so we don't have to play unnecessary guessing games with you?

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as times I may prefer to simply give rather questionable-foggy verse listings as a means to encourage the person Im talking to to feel that if they search on their own they may find that the verse Im pointing to does not teach what i say it does.

Other times I do list the clear verse and its location.

I guess its just a difference due only to the need I see the other person has to find the truth for themselves, and not their need to be "spoon-fed" by me...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

You should try to tell people what the Text means. So we can see what it is that you want us to see. It is much easier on your readers if you spill your guts the first time around so we don’t have to rehash it over and over trying to ring information out of you so we can carry on a decent conversation.

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I see in the scriptures that Jesus would many times not simply tell people his ideas, but rather would ask the people he was talking to a question.
The idea Christ had was that by asking people a question the people had to think for themselves a moment as they looked for the answer to the question Christ asked them..."Who do you say I am?"


This is one of the ways I use to show people the truth that YEC is all based on a big fat lie.

I will tell you a story:
As I have said before I attended an 8-week cl*** taught by the world's leading Young Earth Teacher, a Mr Ken Ham.
For all that time I sat in his cl*** listening, I never once bothered to ask a question.
I just guessed that it was totally pointless...as he was the world's expert in this area and im just a normal Bible student.

Yet one day I heard something......

We were listening to Ken teach about the order of creation, when suddenly I heard something about "God created light first"
That statement sparked me to raise my hand and ask the only question i ever asked in that whole cl***.
I knew what i was hearing simply did not agree with what the Bible stated,,,and I knew I wanted to show the friends I had in the cl***with me that I had caught this world's most well known expert in YEC in a big fat lie....

But rather than simply standing up and denouncing the teachings I was hearing,and stating my counter ideas I asked, (more or less asked this) "You said that that the first thing created was the "light", but what does the bible say was the first thing God created "In the beginning"?



Later after cl*** a bunch of my friends came up to me and we talked about how I had pointed out a fatal flaw in Ken Ham's arguments....

You see all of Ham's argument is all based on the idea that God made light before he made a source for that light.
This mind-set has cause all the other issues and all the other anti-science, and anti-evolution arguments to twist their way into the minds of Christians.

All because the YEC teachers think God made "light" before he made the "sun"


I just was able to point out with my one question to the whole cl*** that the Bible teaches that the first thing God made was the "Heavens" and as the sun is part of the heavens, as well as the moon, and the stars, we dont need to worry at all that we dont have a good light source!

The YEC teachers believe God made the light before he made the light source.

The Bible teaches that God made the source before it even talks about the light.



YEC Teachers need to fight against science and evolution only because they totally screwed up their attempt to read the simple words found in the Bible, and so they have had to add bits, and twist in a whole crazy way to light the earth.....all based on a mis-reading of the text.

I dont need to fight against science nor evolution..
I just stick close to the words found in the text, and when i do I dont have any issues with how science teacher earth evolved life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saxon

I am not going to say, "Hah! you admit it!", I am going to say, If the Bible doesn’t teach it, what are you going on about extra-biblical tripe for?


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Here is an experiment:

You and a friend stand on opposite sides of a room with some type of object in the middle of the room that you both are looking at.

The description you both have of the very same object will never be word for word the same.
This is because you see one side of the object while you friend sees a totally different side of that same object.
Your point of view is always going to be different.
The same object can have different looking sides, and as you can only see the side turned your way, you will naturally describe the object with different words, different terms that your friend will use.

So you both are saying different things about the same object...so who is right?...you or your fiend?

The answer is that you both can be seen as being "correct" in that you are stating facts as they appear to you.





Science looks at earth's history, this is the very same history that I talk about in the Genesis story and at ***38.
Same things are talked about....same issues....same historical events are being described.

But yet the words and terms that science will use are never going to be the very same words we find in the Bible.
The point of view of both science and the Bible different.

Yet, what you find true is that the words found in the Bible, will harmonize with what science and evolution is teaching us.



Things can be different, sound very different, yet when placed next to each other are able to hold hands in union.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

What, in your opinion, is the error?




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As far as I saw in the 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by Ken Ham personally to me and a small cl*** of my Bible student friends, the biggest error Ken and the rest of the YEC teachers make is that they feel the need to invent a "source" for the light first talked about on Day 1.

They feel trapped.....they look at the Text, see the creation of the light, and have to quickly find a way to have a light without any listed source.

This has caused the YEC teachers to come up with all kinds of answers as to where the light came from...
Every time we went over both Day 1 and day 4 in the cl***, we had to once again hear the latest ideas from the minds of the YEc teachers as to how the earth could have light and yet there was no sun yet....

This points out the one thing I noticed about the YEC teachers and what they all have in common,,,they like to add to the Bible.

While most Christians would never want to be seen as adding words to the Bible given the warning in the book of Revelations against doing that very thing, yet the YEC teachers are openly adding words to the text as a means to maintain their ideas abut early earth history.

YEC teachers have no restraint when it comes to changing things as they appear in the Bible.....


By the time they have added enough to answer the question, "Where was the ight from?" they have gotten over the "hump" and no longer feel afraid to be guilty of adding words to the Bible to fit their ideas.



So, to sum up:
The biggest error the YEC teachers make is that they dont stick to the text as its written, and misread what is written, and add things to the Bible to fix it to agree with YEC teachings.


all of this is due to the issue of the "light"





And that is why I really go after that topic to, for if I can show you that there is a listed normal source for all the light in the story of Genesis, then that helps people understand that there is no reason to feel the need to add things to the story.
The light returns to being just "normal light"

No need to make it "special light"

No need to make it all "symbolic"

No need to make it all "so spiritual"

No need to invent a source for the light...

No need to make it out to be anything other than.........than what?............other than what the word that is written says it is!!!!!!!


The light....is...........light.




Its that simple.
The light talked about is the very same light we see today....nothing has changed...

Thereis no need to make this so tricky......

Your explanation of the light in Genesis 1:3 is not comparable with scripture. The light in Genesis 1:3 was NOT a creation but a revealing of THE light. Jesus is the light of the world.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I hope you have a successful demonstration and maybe I will see you a bit Sa****ay and maybe more Sunday.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Your explanation of the light in Genesis 1:3 is not comparable with scripture. The light in Genesis 1:3 was NOT a creation but a revealing of THE light......
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I think you are confused as to who is saying what...


I have talked about that while I was in the cl*** room learning the YEC teachings from Mr Ham, that he taught that the first thing the Bible tells us god made was "the light".....



that is NOT what i believe!



but to make sure I am telling you clearly what I see the text talking abut, I will say one more time what Im reading in the Text.


here we go-

The first thing the Bible tells us God "created" was the heavens.
I believe this is simply the correct word to describe .....EVERYTHING!
Every sun...all the different worlds..all the moons, and the gas, all the galaxies...all that "stuff" out there in space and even the space itself.

All that I believe is correctly called in the Bible by the single term, "heavens"

So I have therefore a source for all the light talked about later, both the light of the 1st day, as well as the lights for the 4th day.
All the light has its source listed for us in the very first verse of the Bible.


So in a very real way I agree with you about the unveiling of the light with the words, "Let there be light".

I just try to show people that the bible talks about the source for that light even before it talks about the light itself!







So there is no need to find something else for the word "light" to mean.
No need to run around and turn the word "light" into something meaning other things....

No need to make it spiritual.

No need to make it symbolic

No need to make it magic light.

No need to search all other the whole rest of the bible for ways to understand the word "light" aside from the normal meaning of the word...


To me, the "light" of Genesis is just simply that....simply normal light that we still see today!






It dont have to be anything more than what it says it is...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

I hope you have a successful demonstration and maybe I will see you a bit Sa****ay and maybe more Sunday.

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Record high temps today......
Im close to 60 years old,,,,
I will be wearing full Kendo armor
Outside in the sun for a long-long time.

Oh, and did I tell you that Im to spar against a kid in his early 20s and is in his prime and way-way better than I am?



Im going to die....er, melt actually......

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I have answered this question a few times already on this same topic so i dont want to bore people with the same drawn-out answer,but the short answer is that
the writer of the Genesis story goes to great care to make sure we know for 100%that the first 6 days of the creation week have ended.
However there are 7 days.....

and there is no ending in the story of genesis to the 7th day.

Nor is there an ending taught for the 7th day at any place in the Old test.

Noris there even a hint that the 7th day has ended at any point in the whole entire bible!


My "crazy" idea is that I simply dont add things to the Bible.

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I thought that was my crazy idea! I see no indication that the text is referring to any “special” length to the 6 days of creation and the Sabbath day model. Your idea that the seventh day is not over is a total fantasy. God has been back to work, if not before, then as soon as Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You have added to the thought of the text that a day in the creation text was different than what is the normal 24 hour period. Show me where the text indicates the day was not the standard 24 hour day.

The thought that the seventh day has not ended is false seeing that it is the model for the Sabbath Day, a 24 hour period.

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now in response to this many YEC teachers will try all kinds of reasons why what Im saying is not the truth.

They go after the 7th day,,,they try to turn that day into something other than being "a day"

They make it spiritual....
they make it symbolic....
they turn it inside out...
they add a pile of unlisted things to it...

All this in the effort to make it not be the one thing it clearly is -
"A Day"

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You have made the 7th day spiritual and symbolic by saying that it never ended. You are now saying it is “A Day”. A day is a 24 hour period

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Its a day with no listed ending.

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If it were a day that never ended then it would be a spiritual and symbolic day.

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If someone were to disagree with me?
Fine, just point to the verse that teaches that the 7th Day of the Creation story has ended.

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You show me where the text states that the day has never ended. Without that you are speculating, not staying with the text as presented in the Bible.

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But you got no verse that clearly teaches that the 7th Day has ended?

Then dont ask me to tack-on an ending just on your say-so.....

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You have no verse that teaches that the 7th day has not ended. I can point to the first 6 days that have clearly ended and the fact that God has resumed working and the fact that the 7th day is the model for the Sabbath, a 24 hour time period that is every 7th day. I am on a more solid footing than you with mere speculation and absolutely no scripture to help your speculative stand.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Your idea that the seventh day is not over is a total fantasy.

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What Im doing is not adding an ending where none is recorded.
Im not forcing an ending where none appears.

I have no need to force an ending.
That is where my ideas are different than the ideas of the YEC teachers.
The YEC teacher needs to add their own ending to the 7th day or their whole argument falls like a house of cards.

I dont need to force an ending into the text to make it agree with my ideas.




What I say to the YEC teachers that demand an ending to the 7th day is this - "Quote me a single verse in the whole Bible that even hints that the 7th Day of Genesis is over and I will drop my point!"



So far, I have never heard anyone try to quote a verse that proves the 7th day has ended....

Oh I have heard all kinds of reasons why the 7th day is over.....all kinds of things people have dreamed up on their own.





But when I ask for a verse that supports their invented ideas?............................................ ..............
.................................................. .......................
.................................................. ......
...................................... the sound of crickets is heard....

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Originally Posted by Saxon

A day is a 24 hour period





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always only 24 hours eh?

Have you noticed how long the first use of the term "day" in the Bible is talking about?


Want to change your answer?






the truth is, there is no such "always means" to the term "Day" in the Bible...nor even in how we use the same word today in conversations.

"In the day of our fathers they always respected the law"...etc...so Im saying that for a single 24 hour long day they respected the Law, and then aside from that what?....no respect?




or... "In that day that the Lord created heaven and the earth, and man walked the fields, and rain fell on the land and blessed it...etc"...am I saying that on the single 24 hour long day that God created the heavens and the earth, and man, and rain, and crops and etc...that all that happens in one single 24 hour day?



The truth is, that there is no such thing as a "rule" that must force the reader to understand that a day has a limited time limit.
The truth is, that the word "day" can refer to an unlimited amount of time....it can mean "forever"
Orit can mean 24 hours...or it can mean 24 billion years.....



or, the truth is...it can mean several things at the same time....
It can be used by a writer to form verses of a song or a poem....it can separate parts of a song or a written work from other parts....it can be a word to be used to help people remember a story....

Lots and lots of ways to use and understand the words....

there is no such "rule" that the word "day" must only mean "24 hours"

In the Bible, the word "day" has many ways of being understood.

Some "days"are only talking about a shorter time or perhaps 12 hours long at most.
Some days are talking about 24 hours.
Some days are said to be a year long each
some days are said to be about 1000 years long...


there is no rule in the Bible that makes a "day" talked about in genesis only 24 hours long and cant means other things at the same time....

some guy tried to tell me once that because the days of genesis are numbeted, that this will force a limited 24 hr understanding.


I countered this with...."I saw a sign telling me that a store was open "5 days A Week!" are we to understand that this store opened up for 5 days and then closed forever and never opened again?....no!....even if the word "day" in the sentence has a number connected to it you cant force it to mean such a limited time"


"Open 5 days a week", has both a limited time it is talking about...and an unlimited amount of time it is talking about.
Both are working at the same time....


thus in the same way, the numbered "days" of Genesis can have both a limited about of time they talk to us about, and an unlimited amount of time that actually cover in history..

Both meanings true, both working at the same time.

So I can read the narration of the genesis story and see the word day as both limited, and also speaking about a vast uncountable number of years stretching into the billions and billions of years...

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Actuallywhat the Bible says is that the earth was created as a dead and dry world...Then a mist came up from underground and watered the whole earth.
The verse I listed in *** 38 tells us that when the water that covered the earth in genesis came forth, it also wrapped the earth in thick darkness.

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Genesis 1:1 and 2 differs with you. Was the darkness upon the face of the deep dust of your dry world, or was it the deep water that the spirit of God moved upon? As you say, stick to the text.

*** 38 is a description of how God arranged the water that covered the Earth into its place to reveal the dry land. Genesis 1:2 says the Earth was covered in water in the beginning and you say the opposite. I am staying with what the Bible states.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

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Notice that this is NOT talking about the story of the ark, but it tells us clearly that this is when God laid the foundations of the earth....(clearly the same moment in earth's history as the Creation story deals with)

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It rained for 40 days (24 hour period) and the fountains of the deep poured water onto the face of the whole earth. Where did all that rain come from? Genesis 1:6 in the Amplified version give the answer to that. It came from the waters that were above the earth. This water above the earth is what *** 38 is referring to.

Genesis 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Genesis 1:6 (AMP) And God said, Let there be a firmament [the expanse of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below] from the waters [above].

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The Bible tells us that the water that covered the earth in genesis "Burst forth"...this is a very good description of what science tells us really happened when water vapor came out via volcanic activity

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Water vapor from a volcano could hardly flood the whole earth in 40 years let alone 40 days. There was water from fountains bursting forth from the ground and rain from heaven (earth’s atmosphere). After the flood the water filter that kept out the radiation of the sun was depleted and the life time of man was greatly reduced. Stick to the text.

So science tells us what "really happened"? I guess that you think that God is not capable of telling us what "really" happened?

Foggy answers lead to bad communication.

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I see in the scriptures that Jesus would many times not simply tell people his ideas, but rather would ask the people he was talking to a question.
The idea Christ had was that by asking people a question the people had to think for themselves a moment as they looked for the answer to the question Christ asked them..."Who do you say I am?"

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First of all you are not Jesus and secondly I have yet to experience you ever coming back to explain what you have said as Jesus did on many occasions.

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This is one of the ways I use to show people the truth that YEC is all based on a big fat lie.

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There is definitely a “big fat lie” going on somewhere, but I don’t think that it is from the “YEC” folks. Their support comes from the Bible weather we are in agreement or not. Your support comes not from the Bible as you have clearly stated that the Bible does not teach evolution. Who is closer to the truth???

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I will tell you a story:
As I have said before I attended an 8-week cl*** taught by the world's leading Young Earth Teacher, a Mr Ken Ham.
For all that time I sat in his cl*** listening, I never once bothered to ask a question.
I just guessed that it was totally pointless...as he was the world's expert in this area and im just a normal Bible student.

Yet one day I heard something......

We were listening to Ken teach about the order of creation, when suddenly I heard something about "God created light first"
That statement sparked me to raise my hand and ask the only question i ever asked in that whole cl***.
I knew what i was hearing simply did not agree with what the Bible stated,,,and I knew I wanted to show the friends I had in the cl***with me that I had caught this world's most well known expert in YEC in a big fat lie....

But rather than simply standing up and denouncing the teachings I was hearing,and stating my counter ideas I asked, (more or less asked this) "You said that that the first thing created was the "light", but what does the bible say was the first thing God created "In the beginning"?



Later after cl*** a bunch of my friends came up to me and we talked about how I had pointed out a fatal flaw in Ken Ham's arguments....

You see all of Ham's argument is all based on the idea that God made light before he made a source for that light.
This mind-set has cause all the other issues and all the other anti-science, and anti-evolution arguments to twist their way into the minds of Christians.

All because the YEC teachers think God made "light" before he made the "sun"

I have responded to this story in a previous post and I still think that it is brought out of a false ***umption that the first light was “created”. Not so.



I just was able to point out with my one question to the whole cl*** that the Bible teaches that the first thing God made was the "Heavens" and as the sun is part of the heavens, as well as the moon, and the stars, we dont need to worry at all that we dont have a good light source!

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The Bible states that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day, a fact you wish to ignore.

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The YEC teachers believe God made the light before he made the light source.

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God WAS the light that he exposed to the earth he created

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The Bible teaches that God made the source before it even talks about the light.

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Now is not the time to be “foggy”. Where does the Bible teach that??

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YEC Teachers need to fight against science and evolution only because they totally screwed up their attempt to read the simple words found in the Bible, and so they have had to add bits, and twist in a whole crazy way to light the earth.....all based on a mis-reading of the text.

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I think it is your camp that is totally screwed up in the reading the simple words found in the Bible. Since when does the Bible need another source to explain the Bible?? Especially from people that think that their ancestors were apes?????

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I dont need to fight against science nor evolution..
I just stick close to the words found in the text, and when i do I dont have any issues with how science teacher earth evolved life.

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If you would just stick to the words of the Bible you would see that there is no room for evolution to explain the Bible creation text.

Evolution talks about a totally different "object" than the Bible.

I have answered you light problem several times. God WAS the light.

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I think you are confused as to who is saying what...

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There is no confusion on my part as to who said what, God said. (See Genesis 1:3)

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

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I have talked about that while I was in the cl*** room learning the YEC teachings from Mr Ham, that he taught that the first thing the Bible tells us god made was "the light".....

that is NOT what i believe!

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Mr. Ham is a man and may not get it to perfection in one point. You don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

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but to make sure I am telling you clearly what I see the text talking abut, I will say one more time what Im reading in the Text.


here we go-

The first thing the Bible tells us God "created" was the heavens.
I believe this is simply the correct word to describe .....EVERYTHING!
Every sun...all the different worlds..all the moons, and the gas, all the galaxies...all that "stuff" out there in space and even the space itself.

All that I believe is correctly called in the Bible by the single term, "heavens"

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Yes, that is the overall view of what was done. The next is a more detailed description of when it was done. Read the text!!

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So I have therefore a source for all the light talked about later, both the light of the 1st day, as well as the lights for the 4th day.
All the light has its source listed for us in the very first verse of the Bible.

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Yes, that is the overall view of what was done. The next is a more detailed description of when it was done. Read the text!!

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So in a very real way I agree with you about the unveiling of the light with the words, "Let there be light".

I just try to show people that the bible talks about the source for that light even before it talks about the light itself!

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You need to get it in the right prospective and see that the Bible is all you need to no the truth of creation.

How do you come to terms with the idea that man came about through millions of years of evolving from a one celled creature to a fully functioning human and the Bible stating that God created man out of the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life? God breathed into his nostrils, not into an amoeba. (See Genesis 2:7)

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

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So there is no need to find something else for the word "light" to mean.
No need to run around and turn the word "light" into something meaning other things....

No need to make it spiritual.

No need to make it symbolic

No need to make it magic light.

No need to search all other the whole rest of the bible for ways to understand the word "light" aside from the normal meaning of the word...


To me, the "light" of Genesis is just simply that....simply normal light that we still see today!

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How can you be agreeing with me if you go right back to your original position that the light that was brought forth is the same light that you see today when the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day? The light that is seen today is the light given off from the sun. It was not there when God said let there be light. You can’t have it both ways.

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It dont have to be anything more than what it says it is...

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You still need to figure out what it says.

When you are up to bat so to speak, it should happen before you can even think of what you will do. It is a reactionary activity when you are in it for a time. Late 50's; you are still a spring chicken for a day or two yet.

Quote me a single verse in the whole Bible that the Trinity is the way God is in his existence.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. The Jews start the day at sundown . From sundown to sundown is still 24 hours.

Show me where you have a day that is not 24 hours. If you quote something like "the day of the Lord" or something that is not referring to an actual day as we know it then you will need to really have a good supporting story to show me how it fits with a day of creation type of day.

If you have no concept of what "open 5 days a week" means and being close to 60, you need to get out more.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Genesis 1:1 and 2 differs with you. Was the darkness upon the face of the deep dust of your dry world, or was it the deep water that the spirit of God moved upon? As you say, stick to the text.

J

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Yes, look at Genesis 2, many parts of this part of Genesis happen before many parts of genesis 1......

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Originally Posted by Saxon

It rained for 40 days (24 hour period)

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actually if you go read *** 38 you will see it is talking about the time with God laid the foundations of the earth,,,NT when the world was flooded and there was an ark....


Thats two different topics.!

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Originally Posted by Saxon

You show me where the text states that the day has never ended.

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all I do is point out that as there is no ending listed, I dont add one....

Thats all I doing, Im not adding something to the bible that is not there,....






The YEC teachers are the ones that have to add something to the story...
They really need there to be an ending...they need it so much they will force it into the text no matter what.....


LOL


I just say, "If it dont say it, then I dont add it"...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

The Bible states that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day, a fact you wish to ignore.

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So the Bible literally says that the "sun " and the "moon" were created on the 4th day eh?


or is that your private interpretation of what it says?


LOL :)

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Originally Posted by Saxon

How can you be agreeing with me if you go right back to your original position that the light that was brought forth is the same light that you see today when the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day? The light that is seen today is the light given off from the sun. It was not there when God said let there be light. You can’t have it both ways.





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What I teach my students is this...


The "light"talked about with the verse that says "Let there be light", that light is just the normal light of the sun we still see today.
This is not written to be tricky...
the light is just that.,,"Normal light:...

normal light from the normal sun...

Nothing changed...

the light Moses talked about came from the same sun that gives us our light today...the light has not changed at all over the years...its the same light!

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Evolution talks about a totally different "object" than the Bible.

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Evolution and Genesis stand on different sides of the same room, looking at the same events in earth's history.


I dont expect them to use the same words to tell us what truth they find.....but I have learned that the truth of evolution fits within the genesis Text....!!!!

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Originally Posted by Saxon

You have no verse that teaches that the 7th day has not ended. I can point to the first 6 days that have clearly ended and the fact that God has resumed working and the fact that the 7th day is the model for the Sabbath, a 24 hour time period that is every 7th day. I am on a more solid footing than you with mere speculation and absolutely no scripture to help your speculative stand.

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blah, blah, blah...
All I get out of that is,,,,you FAIL to list any verse that teaches the 7th day ended.

This means that you must admit I got a point.

6 days the writer makes a clear ending to each day...so clear you cant missit..
But the 7th day?......no ending.



Thats all Im saying.

Im saying only what I see in the text.....

I willl leave it up to the student that learns this as to what it might mean...


6 days have clear endings and the 7th has no ending.









case-closed.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

normal light from the normal sun...

!

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This is the core difference I have with my ideas and the ideas of the YEC teachers.

They teach that the light was something else.

I teach that the light was just what it says it was...."light"










They actually will have all their ideas fall like a house of cards if one thing is true, and that one thing is that if the "light" is actually just normal light.
Thinkwhat a worry that must be for the YEc teachers!
Think how they must struggle all the time to make what the Bible says into something that is not written there???





Its so much more easy to just read, "Let there be light" and believe it as written.
I dont have any need at all to try to convince people that "Oh the light must be talking about something else!....It cant just be simply light!"







When Im teaching this part of Genesis to students of the bible, and we come to this verse where it says, "Let there be light" and the student asks me, "Whatis that?"
Its so much more easy to say, "Thats talking about light" rather than needing to find a tricky way to replace the word found there in the Bible with some other idea.

And its so much more easy to be able to point right out the window at something real when a student asks, "Where did this light come from?"