Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Cl***ic ......

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At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible say is the first thing God created "in the beginning"?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible say is the first thing God created "in the beginning"?

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“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” (Genesis 1:1-5 NASB)

When I look at these verses, I take them for everything they are. What do I mean by “everything”? Everything as God would have me to know. For it is said by Him on understanding things in scripture,
things that are “not for you to know”, and there are things that are “oh the depth” sorts.

At this point of your pulling out of participating in the discussion, it may be an exercise in futility in detailing things. But here, for creations account, as with many other p***age, the reader should know how to both - 1.apply and 2.resist each of these,

spiritually
simplicity
- - - - - - -
twisting
isolating
without adding
without subtracting

Of those listed, the first two, “spiritually” should not ever-ever-ever encounter nor be subject to the other item listed “isolating” which you seem fixated over. This is the correct and safe way to read the scriptures. Can you say the same for the list?

With this in mind, when you ask,

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At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible say is the first thing God created

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V1’s simplicity is clear, the “heavens and earth”.

But I got the feeling you are not content with the Lord’s simplicity. I got the feeling you will want to step out of the listed “apply” / “resist” I furnished. I hope I am wrong.

Like I said before....I dont understand a word of your posts..

You write in a style that is impossible to make heads or tails of?

I will just tell you a story;


At our church we got Ken Ham to come to our Bible cl*** and teach us his 8-week ORIGINS cl***.
What I learned during this 8-week cl*** is that all of the Young earth Creationism teachings are all based on non-Bible ideas.
Simply put, the YEC teachings are not found in the Bible.

I attended every cl*** of Ham's teachings, but I never raised my hand to ask a question except for one time.
I remember Ham was going on and on about the creation week time-line, and posting things on the blackboard, and he remarked that "According to the Bible the first thing God created is "light".

The moment I heard that, it struck me as simply being "wrong"

But as I kept listening to Ken teach it also became clear that all of YEC and its many invented teachings all HANG of this idea that the first thing God created was this "light" without a source.

I saw that every other teaching that Ken gave us, all hung on this core idea of him that God made light before he made a source for that light.

I raised my hand......

Ken called on me, and I spoke my question .

I asked Ken Ham the following question - "What does the bible say at Genesis 1:1 is the very first thing God created in the beginning?"



Now you have to understand the context of the room to understand what happened later.
For this room was filled with the guys I had been going to church with for along-long time....these were my friends, and yet they were also the same guys and girls I had disagreed with from time to time on this issue too.


After the cl***, I was surrounded by the guys in the cl***, and they started to ask me questions about what I had asked about with Ken Ham.
Theyt all wanted to know what I was really getting at, because we all had seen that the answer Ken had given me ("Well that's what the bible just says, but that's not what it means") clearly was ducking the issue I had raised.

So after that cl***, we sat around and I opened the Bible with the guys and we went over, point by point what the bible says, and we compared it to the teachings we had just heard Ken Ham teach us.

What we all saw was that "Ken is just simply wrong"



You see, right after Ken had given me his answer "Well that's what the bible just says, but that's not what it means", I responded with, "Thats why I asked you what it "says?""




Ken's whole teaching concept is to get people to not read what the Bible "says" rather its to get the students in my cl*** to just look at what the YEC textbooks teaches the Bible"means".

and.........lets just say that this suddenly became clear to a whole bunch of students that day in my Bible cl***.





Now I ask you guys here on this Walter martin forum the same question, and because you see that the Bible clearly "says" something that you know in your hearts runs counter to the teachings of Ken Ham, you are very reluctant to answer my simple question about Genesis 1:1.

But you need not be shy about this verse.

It's not a trick question.

Im not here to tell you what the verse "means"

Im simply attempting to point out to Bible students what the verse "says"

now....where did I first notice this difference between what the Bible 'says"at Gen 1:1 and what the YEC teachers want us to believe it "means"?




It was along time ago...

I learned this while listening to the bible Answer man show.

My memory fades, but as i remember....


a caller called-in with a question for Walter and/or Samples.
The caller talked about being in a discussion with a co-worker that is not a believer.
They had talked about Genesis and evolution, and the caller was asking for advice and stuff to tell his co-worker.

At first the caller seemed to be in much agreement with show's host, then at what might have been the end of the call, the caller was talking about pointing out to his co-worker next time that the Bible teaches that God created the "light" before He created the "sun" on the 4th day.

That is where host of the show corrected the caller, by pointing out that this "idea" was not found in the Text.

The called was stumped....?

The caller had no idea that this was true...?


But the host of the show pointed out that the Bible does not actually teach that God made the "light" before the "sun".


Then the conversation turned to the text found at Genesis 1:1

God's word teaches that the "Heavens" were created first ,in the beginning (before all other things)And, that the term "Heavens" is talking about in that context the full canopy of stars seen in the sky........and by the way, our "sun" is included within the term "Heavens"

I remembered the simple logic of reading the text of the Bible as it is written, and how that is so much more simple than the twisted reasoning found in the YEC teachings.




It was like the caller had had the blinders pulled off his eyes for the first time....
The caller was suddenly shown that there is a whole new world of stuff to see in the bible once you free yourself from the invented teachings of the YEC books.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

now....where did I first notice this difference between what the Bible 'says"at Gen 1:1 and what the YEC teachers want us to believe it "means"?




It was along time ago...

I learned this while listening to the bible Answer man show.

My memory fades, but as i remember....


a caller called-in with a question for Walter and/or Samples.
The caller talked about being in a discussion with a co-worker that is not a believer.
They had talked about Genesis and evolution, and the caller was asking for advice and stuff to tell his co-worker.

At first the caller seemed to be in much agreement with show's host, then at what might have been the end of the call, the caller was talking about pointing out to his co-worker next time that the Bible teaches that God created the "light" before He created the "sun" on the 4th day.

That is where host of the show corrected the caller, by pointing out that this "idea" was not found in the Text.

The called was stumped....?

The caller had no idea that this was true...?


But the host of the show pointed out that the Bible does not actually teach that God made the "light" before the "sun".


Then the conversation turned to the text found at Genesis 1:1

God's word teaches that the "Heavens" were created first ,in the beginning (before all other things)And, that the term "Heavens" is talking about in that context the full canopy of stars seen in the sky........and by the way, our "sun" is included within the term "Heavens"

I remembered the simple logic of reading the text of the Bible as it is written, and how that is so much more simple than the twisted reasoning found in the YEC teachings.




It was like the caller had had the blinders pulled off his eyes for the first time....
The caller was suddenly shown that there is a whole new world of stuff to see in the bible once you free yourself from the invented teachings of the YEC books.

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Alan, from the start, this conversation has been addressing your belief that the theory of evolution is correct when the first book of the Bible, clearly indicates that the work of creation was done in six, twenty-four-hour days.
Evolution directly contradicts Genesis and denies God’s creative power. Just as Christ performed miracles instantaneously while He was here on earth, so also He did His work of creation instantaneously during Creation week. Jesus made enough loaves and fish to feed thousands, instantly. He raised the dead and gave sight to the blind instantly. The Bible says, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . . For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast” Psalm 33:6, 9. God says, “I have made the earth, and created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded” Isaiah 45:12. One cannot believe these verses and also believe in evolution. God did not use evolution to create the world and all that is in it, He spoke and it existed.

How does Alan inoculate himself from reasoning he doesn’t agree with? By deflecting it with “I don’t understand”.

That is why you don’t pick it up with a little for***ude to return questioning point–by-point to break it down.

Of course, everyone knows the simplicity I took the time to include like,

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V1’s simplicity is clear, the “heavens and earth”

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But you don’t understand terms like “simplicity is clear”. You deflect with 'it is too far out in left field.' – com’n!!!!

Now, enough of the deflection, what is it about my list for sound scripture reading don’t you understand?

Did you get that? Try it again.

What is it about my list for sound scripture reading don’t you understand?

But don’t post too many questions about my list in #162, I don’t want to run the risk of confusing you.

There you go, a painfully simple question.

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Originally Posted by disciple

Alan, from the start, this conversation has been addressing your belief that the theory of evolution is correct when the first book of the Bible, clearly indicates that the work of creation was done in six, twenty-four-hour days.
Evolution directly contradicts Genesis and denies God’s creative power. Just as Christ performed miracles instantaneously while He was here on earth, so also He did His work of creation instantaneously during Creation week. Jesus made enough loaves and fish to feed thousands, instantly. He raised the dead and gave sight to the blind instantly. The Bible says, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . . For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast” Psalm 33:6, 9. God says, “I have made the earth, and created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded” Isaiah 45:12. One cannot believe these verses and also believe in evolution. God did not use evolution to create the world and all that is in it, He spoke and it existed.

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Goood verses, ones not to isolate from Genesis, which seems to be the determination of his.

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Originally Posted by disciple

......and gave sight to the blind instantly....

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He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village.
When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?"
He looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees walking around."
Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.


After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes.
Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means "Sent"). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

To those who are curious or new to what the heck is going on here, , you are correct in asking.

I suppose the best way to clear up this petulant trait you now see is because someone’s desire to capitalize on whatever exposure he can have for the purpose of promoting evolution. But we see he isn’t content with just promotion, but domination of a thought that has been correctly refuted from God’s word. In other words, he also isn't here to debate.

Now, with this last post, the desperation is evident. Deflections right and left, whatever it takes to remain on the thread unscathed. Yeah right, that’s what I thought you may have been thinking, you don’t buy that either.

If he was an open minded person, you could ask him “Why”, but a Deflection Meister, who supports an imagination thrown down by God’s will found in the scriptures (without partiality) doesn’t want to cede imaginary ground. He wants you and I to join in his devaluing the word of God and all it is profitable for.

He won’t like my robust theory I think he’s involved with.

Apparently, that won’t be a problem since the moderators here don’t mind anyone repeatedly distressing the threads with clearly un-scriptural agitations as this resident evolutionist does.

Heckuva party you got going on Alan, gee thanks! Not!

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Originally Posted by disciple

Alan, from the start, ......

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......I believe "from the start" I have said, over and over that when you stick to the text as written in the Bible that you will not find any anti-evolution arguments in the Bible.
(I will be going into this more in a next post)

And that if you stick to the text you will notice that you always end up at the same place that evolution ends up when you trace back all life to the source in both Genesis and in evolution.
That the two works agree on a common starting point for all life.
And that both genesis and evolution agree that humans and all animals ( like the great apes ), share a common source.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So after that cl***, we sat around and I opened the Bible with the guys and we went over, point by point what the bible says, and we compared it to the teachings we had just heard Ken Ham teach us.

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Although there was no recording to what we talked about after cl***, I do remember many of the high points of the conversation and how I was hit with question after question and how I was able to answer things with just the text of the bible as it is written.

It went something like this -

Q -what did you mean with your question?
Alan -I was pointing out that the Bible does not teach that god created Ken's "Light with no source" first at Gen 1:1.

Q - what do You think was created first?
A - just what it says in the text was created first..."The Heavens"

Q- what are the "Heavens in that verse?
A - all the Stars in the universe.

Q - so you think God made the stars like our sun first?
A - yes, that is clearly what the text says.

Q - But aren't you also replacing the word "Heavens" with your idea of "Our sun"?
A - no, the correct word is "Heavens "if you want to say that God created all the "suns" in the universe, the correct word to describe all the suns and stars and other worlds is "Heavens".

Q-but does not the Bible say that the sun and moon were created on the 4th day?
A- no, the 4th day never says for one second that the "sun"was created on the 4th day,look it up!

Q - but it talks about a "Greater light" that has to mean the sun's light correct?
A - oh yes, its the sun's "greater light" that is true...but the "Greater light" of the sun is not the same thing as the sun itself.

Q - but how can you make the light and not have the sun itself?
A - thats my question for Ken's teaching as well....For Ken lights the earth with a magic light with no source. But Im saying that there was a source at Genesis 1:1. Im saying that at Genesis 1:1 God created the stars like our sun and that is the source for all the light later described.

Q - so what are you saying God created on the 4th day?
A - just what is talked about on the 4th day! The thing that changed was the "AMOUNT" of light that was seen on the earth...
Go look it up yourself! The thing talked about is the "Greater and lesser' amounts of light.

Q - but does not the text say that God also made the stars on the 4th day?
A - no, the words 'also made" are added to make the text agree with YEC but that is not actually how the verse reads in the Hebrew.

Q - so what is happening to the stars on the 4th day then if they are not said to be made in the Hebrew on the 4th day?
A - they (the stars) along with the night , are said to be ruled over by the lesser light.
Look dont just take my word for it, just go read it again and this time dont use the clearly added words and you will find that the sentence works just fine without them.

I will continue to describe more of that conversation later tonight....stay tuned!

It became clear to me while talking with my friends after our ORIGINS cl*** (taught by Ken Ham personally) that there were a lot of the students who also shared my gut-feeling that what were were learning in the cl*** was simply not right....

It simply just did not agree with the Text.

The cl*** that Ken taught simply did not present the Bible as written, but rather seemed to rely on a lot of anti-evolution arguments and actually there were very few times when the Bible was refereed to.

We students got into dealing with the subject of the "Light" in our conversation, and there was a lot of interest in how I could say that the sun and stars were the first things the Bible listed as being created first, and yet the Bible also saying the earth was in "darkness"?

I remember a lot of the things we talked about, here now is a short bit of that conversation as I think back...



Question - "But Alan, if you say the Sun was already made, why then does it say the earth was in darkness?"
Alan - "The "darkness " and the reason for it is talked about in *** 38. The reason is said to be that God wrapped the early Earth in a thick wrapping of clouds."

Q - "But where did the clouds come from?"
A - "That is talked about in Genesis 2, where it says that a "mist" came up from underground and watered the whole earth...By the way this also agrees with how science tells us the water we see got here."

Q - "But Genesis 2 comes after Genesis 1 right?"
A- "Well it actually is describing events that happen very early in earths history."

Q - "But the Text says the earth was "without form and void"...so how can you say the earth was so completed?"
A - "The phrase "without form" is dealing with the same thing you find when you are standing on a country road and it's very foggy out. You can hear a truck approaching you but you cant see it. You know the truck is real, you know its getting closer to you, but you cant see it yet. It is just as real as it can be, yet from your point of view it is "without form". The word "void" is simply talking about there not being any people yet."



What I was showing my friends after Ken Ham's ORIGINS cl***, is that there are no real arguments found in the Genesis text that stand against science nor against the teachings of evolution.

The Text we have describes the same points in early Earth's history that science has been telling us about, and there really is no need to have a 'cow' just because science and the Bible might use different words to describe the very same events!



Now , the big point in what had said to my friend back then after our cl***,is the same point I make here on this forum.
My point is that if you stick close to the written words foundin Genesis you dont run into any problems with the science of evolution.

We next got into a long conversation about the words "Day"....and ..."kinds"....as well as dealing with the whole issue of how life originates in the bible compared to evolution.


We shall begin to talk about all that next time..



stay tuned!

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

stay tuned!

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It's all here, nothing more needed, lest the Lord leads. But He has called us to be "perfect", insisting on complicating the corrections listed here amounts to leading the people astray, and that is evil. Buyer Beware!

“Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.” (John 14:24) - Jesus

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Q -what did you mean with your question?
Alan -I was pointing out that the Bible does not teach that god created Ken's "Light with no source" first at Gen 1:1.

.

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I think now I will go over in more detail each of the answers I gave my cl***mates and talk about why each of my answers is so true.

In the very first question I was asked after our cl***, I answer that if you just stick to the Text as recorded in the Bible, you dont see ANY of the YEC teachings that Ken Ham was gushing about.

The Text clearly just teaches that God created the "Heavens" first,,,,thats just a fact that the YEC believers simply would like to make moot in the Bible.

Right after I told the guys that I was pointing out that the bible says a different thing than what Ken was teachings I got back the commonresponce,(Same responce that Ken had by the way.
"Well Alan, that maybe what the Bible says, but it means something else"

My answer to that was and still is this - "That is why I asked you "What does the Bible say? I'm not asking what doyou think it means?".Im only asking you what does the Bible say,?
."

The YEC believers that I have asked this question fear it....
they dont like to answer it.
The YEC believers that have been asked this question will try anything they can to duck from it because they know it points out the biggest flaw in TEC teachings.

I turned to the friend who had try to challenge me and asked him the same question again about what does the Bible "say?"

He would not answer me...
He knew that if he said the the bible says first that God created the "heavens' that all his objections to what i was pointing out to him would be rendered silly.
His point was silly because everyone listening now saw that I was right and that Ken Ham was in error.

The YEC teachings hold that God created a light first that had no known source in Genesis.
The YEC teachers then go on and on and add words and ideas to the text to build support for their invented teachings about light with no source....but their proof falls to the floor the moment you open the Bible and ask them "What does the Bible say at Genesis 1:1 was the first things God created In The Beginning?"


In my answer to my cl***mates I point out the difference between what Ken was teachings and what the Bible says in black and white.

From the reaction I got from my cl***mates, I could tell that this one simple question helped alot of the guys see what I and the Bible were saying...

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Originally Posted by disciple

Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.

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I will tell you about a conversation I had:


Many years ago I was talking to a guy I knew ,and I also knew that he was a believer in the whole Young Earth Creationism stuff.
He also asked me to find a verse that teaches that "Man came from ape"

He used to smile when he asked me that question, because he knew enough about the Bible to know that there is no single verse that clearly teaches anything much about ape evolution...let alone that man evolved from one.

But rather than attempting to "teach"my friend anything,I went about this a different way...


I asked my friend, "According to what you know about the teachings of evolution, you believe it teaches that man came from ape?"
"Yes"was his answer.

"But what came before that? I asked.
"What do you mean?" was his response.

"I mean what came before the ape that you keep talking about according to evolution, or does evolution teach that apes just suddenly appeared on the earth out of thin air?"

He considered his answer, then spoke, "Well sure evolution teaches that there was something before the apes, but regardless its not what the Bible teaches."


I continued, "We will get to what the Bible teaches in a moment, but first I want to understand what you mean by evolution and how you understand what it's saying."

I let this sink in for a moment, then went on and asked him , "So you just said that according to evolution that there were earlier life forms before the apes, and so what was one of them?"

My friend answered, "I think that if you trace back life according to evolution, then you find that all the mammals are related, and then they are connected to fish,and then if you go back far enough in the way evolution looks at things we all started out as bacteria or something like that!"


I then press him and ask, "So there was nothing before the bacteria then?...are we to believe that evolution teaches that bacteria suddenly "popped" into being?...that evolution stops there?"

This caused my friend to pause a moment as he did not really know what to say to me I think, but then he added, "My guess is that before that you would be talking about inorganic things, different minerals and amino acids and organic compounds."


"Good answer" I told my friend. "And whats important about them is that what we are talking about is that according to the teachings of evolution , that you reject, we find that the very building blocks of all life come from this earth itself"

My friend responds "Yes, so what? Thats still very different than what the Bible teaches"


"Is it?" I ask, "Is it all that different than what the Bible teaches?"


I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.
"Let me read this to you, Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr*** Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature. Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"




I paused for effect.....

Then said the following-

"What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution. But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from. So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will tell you about a conversation I had:


Many years ago I was talking to a guy I knew ,and I also knew that he was a believer in the whole Young Earth Creationism stuff.
He also asked me to find a verse that teaches that "Man came from ape"

He used to smile when he asked me that question, because he knew enough about the Bible to know that there is no single verse that clearly teaches anything much about ape evolution...let alone that man evolved from one.

But rather than attempting to "teach"my friend anything,I went about this a different way...


I asked my friend, "According to what you know about the teachings of evolution, you believe it teaches that man came from ape?"
"Yes"was his answer.

"But what came before that? I asked.
"What do you mean?" was his response.

"I mean what came before the ape that you keep talking about according to evolution, or does evolution teach that apes just suddenly appeared on the earth out of thin air?"

He considered his answer, then spoke, "Well sure evolution teaches that there was something before the apes, but regardless its not what the Bible teaches."


I continued, "We will get to what the Bible teaches in a moment, but first I want to understand what you mean by evolution and how you understand what it's saying."

I let this sink in for a moment, then went on and asked him , "So you just said that according to evolution that there were earlier life forms before the apes, and so what was one of them?"

My friend answered, "I think that if you trace back life according to evolution, then you find that all the mammals are related, and then they are connected to fish,and then if you go back far enough in the way evolution looks at things we all started out as bacteria or something like that!"


I then press him and ask, "So there was nothing before the bacteria then?...are we to believe that evolution teaches that bacteria suddenly "popped" into being?...that evolution stops there?"

This caused my friend to pause a moment as he did not really know what to say to me I think, but then he added, "My guess is that before that you would be talking about inorganic things, different minerals and amino acids and organic compounds."


"Good answer" I told my friend. "And whats important about them is that what we are talking about is that according to the teachings of evolution , that you reject, we find that the very building blocks of all life come from this earth itself"

My friend responds "Yes, so what? Thats still very different than what the Bible teaches"


"Is it?" I ask, "Is it all that different than what the Bible teaches?"


I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.
"Let me read this to you, Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr*** Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature. Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"




I paused for effect.....

Then said the following-

"What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution. But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from. So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

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No bible quoted, hello? Disciple asked for scripture. What the thread is to be concerned with is Bible scrutiny, not a promotional platform.

Your comment is void from the purpose of the thread.

well different strokes for different folks I guess...

I ***ume everything and every topic is a platform for my views and a chance, if i want to take it, to dig deeper into what i believe and why.

If you dont like reading my posts?....then dont.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well different strokes for different folks I guess...I ***ume everything and every topic is a platform for my views and a chance, if i want to take it, to dig deeper into what i believe and why. If you dont like reading my posts?....then dont.

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I’ll speak for myself. Stop jumping to conclusions of what I like...

So, again, your entry is invalid because you have not provided text to support your hypothesis with. This is a thread concerning Bible scrutiny, not imagination’s capacity. Use the Bible.

Stop throwing the thread.

Again and again. It may one day sink in,

Bible or Opinion,

Bible or Opinion, , , Which is this thread dealing with, , , Bible, or opinion?

Read the ***le for me once more and tell me what you see up there. Does the thread indicate dealing with opinion or scripture?

Bible, or opinion,

Bible, or opinion.

If we try, we can include the text to support our views. What text do you want to use for your lesson today?

I like this part of my post the best -

"I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.

"Let me read this to you,-
Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature.
Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree
Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"


What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution.
But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from.
So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from.
So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."[/B]

---

Invalid as upon conjecture.

I've already illustrated the error strapped example of imagining things in the Bible.

Do you again need a refresher?

The rendering for invalid rest on II Pet 1:20.

But thanks anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Let me read this to you,-
Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature.
Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree
Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"

---

Now building on the above quotations taken directly out of the Bible, I have also pointed out in the past that the Bible also agrees with science as to the evolution of this earth and how it came to be the way it is.

And this also flies in the face of what the Young Earthers teach...LOL

The Young Earther has told me that the earth was created first as a wet world, covered in seas.....But I point out that this idea is not found in the bible.

I show how the Bible teaches that the earth was created first as a dry world in agreement with what science teaches....just to check this out look at Genesis 2:5and 6.

Lets read it now -
" Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground

Here in this Bible quotation we are dealing with a time in early earth's history before water was see on the surface.
We are told that rain had not yet formed and fallen to the ground yet...

Where all the water came from on the earth now is told to us in verse 6, "but streams came up from the earth"....the word "streams" has a foot note that tells us that the other word correctly used here would be a "mist"

This idea of a "mist" that comes forth from out of the earth's interior is something that science has been talking about for years too.

Its fun to see how at every step we find that science and Genesis are walking hand-in-hand to bring to us a more well rounded understanding of early earth's history!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Let me read this to you,-
Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature.
Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree
Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"

---

Now building on the above quotations taken directly out of the Bible, I have also pointed out in the past that the Bible also agrees with science as to the evolution of this earth and how it came to be the way it is.

And this also flies in the face of what the Young Earthers teach...LOL

The Young Earther has told me that the earth was created first as a wet world, covered in seas.....But I point out that this idea is not found in the bible.

I show how the Bible teaches that the earth was created first as a dry world in agreement with what science teaches....just to check this out look at Genesis 2:5and 6.

Lets read it now -
" Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground

Here in this Bible quotation we are dealing with a time in early earth's history before water was see on the surface.
We are told that rain had not yet formed and fallen to the ground yet...

Where all the water came from on the earth now is told to us in verse 6, "but streams came up from the earth"....the word "streams" has a foot note that tells us that the other word correctly used here would be a "mist"

This idea of a "mist" that comes forth from out of the earth's interior is something that science has been talking about for years too.

Its fun to see how at every step we find that science and Genesis are walking hand-in-hand to bring to us a more well rounded understanding of early earth's history!!!!!

so to review...

What we have now seen in the Bible's text is a story that walks in agreement with science as to the foundation of life on this world, and we have seen how the Bible is in agreement with how science tells us the earth was able to form water on its surface.

Now the next thing I would like to turn my attention to is dealing with the whole Genesis "light" issue.

This is the core disagreement I have with the Young Earth teachings, and so I think it would be great if I took a moment to truly see what the bible has to say about the Genesis "lights' and how that can compare with the way science teaches us about the appearance of light on this earth...

Buyer Beware, how not to post on this thread (troublemaker).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What we have now seen in the Bible's text is a story

---

My what a handy precursor flow we have here, , no Bible scrutiny from Alan or his like, ,

“and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.” (II Timothy 4:4)

When we snip and tag a p***age, the evil is glaringly abundant. So much energy trying to capitalize on Walter Martin’s reputation, who would have nothing to do with not holding up interpretation to a thread who’s purpose is to abide by the rules of the Christian forum of tranquil discussion, not troublesome posts excusing itself from, bible scrutiny.

If you can't criticize what someone says on this forum, criticize the fact that they say it?.....is that what Im seeing now?






Over and over I ask you guys for any Bible verse connected to the topic of Origins that you would like me to look at or to talk about?...

But all I get in return is the comments that I should not even talk about evolution.


and over and over I invite people to put my ideas to the test and to open their Bible and see if what im saying is found in the Bible?

Yet all I get in return is once again "How dare you even talk about evolution!"





All I can say to that is that if you dont want anyone talking about evolution on the Walter martin forum?...thats just too bad!




This section of the WM forum is setup to have these types of conversations, and this is where I like to spend my time dealing with this whole topic.
And Im not going anywhere!


That JUDE guy who used to post here also would not try to challenge me with the bible because clearly he knew he was not up to that...so he too would just say, "How dare you talk about that!"

and all I got to say in response to that is "Thats just too bad!"





So its like this:
If you actually got a verse that deal with the topic of Origins /genesis/evolution then Im interested....lets see what you got!

But if your only response to what im teaching here is "How dare you teach that" then Im just going to ignore your posts as I continue teaching what I believe is the Bible-backed truth.


You can be part of that discussion, or you can do something else I dont care.
But regardless of whatever you do Im still going to keep teaching Truth and posting Bible verses and making total fun of the YEC teachings.

The lights of genesis was on my list of things next to talk about.

The fact is, all the silly and invented teachings we call "Young Earth Creationism" (YEC) all come out of the way the YEC teachers feel trapped by the Bible on the topic of the "light" talked about in the opening of the Genesis story.

They see God's word talking about "Let there be light" but they dont see God make any source for that light???...so the YEC teachers race to invent ways for the light to be in the story....they call it a "source-less " light...

Or they say "God was the source".... :)

Or they come up with other means to have a light around without any listed source.



I on the other hand, have a way to interpret the Genesis story that does not require me to invent a unheard of "source-less light"

How do I interpret the Genesis story that does not require inventing things like the YEC teachers do?.....I just read the story and stick close to it!


Thats all you have to do?....yes, that is all we have to do to learn where the light came forth from.


No need to invent a "source-less light?.......no,we dont need to invent silly things like that!






I will go on and tell you how and where the "light" came from in Genesis in the next post, so stay tuned!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Over and over I ask you guys for any Bible verse connected to the topic of Origins

------------------------------------------------------

If you actually got a verse that deal with the topic of Origins /genesis/evolution then Im interested

---

I’m interested in knowing which of these two do you want to include in this request for a verse?

“any”

Or

“/genesis/”

Quote:

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I invite people to put my ideas to the test and to open their Bible and see if what im saying is found in the Bible?

---

If you’re talking about ONLY using Genesis, I’m not interested in opening up my Bible to the error of imagination.

Can’t you see it’s wrong to dis all the related scriptures over the falsehood of evolution?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Over and over I ask you guys

---

to ***ume the iden***y of a moron and drink the spiritual Kool-Aid that is in abundance.

How?

By not studying the Bible.

By not ***ociating all text to all text.

By living up to a dreamer's dream, would be wonderful to fulfill the life of a moron on earth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaellS

I’m interested in knowing which of these two do you want to include in this request for a verse?

“any”

Or

“/genesis/”

---

Was there some part of my post that seemed hard to understand?

"Over and over I ask you guys for any Bible verse connected to the topic of Origins"

add to this the following quote - "I use the story of the Genesis creation to back up my views, I quote the book of Genesis a lot....I also quote other partsof the Bible that are directly connected to the creation story of Genesis(*** 38 for example)....I have always asked everyone to look at the things I say are taught, check out the verses I list, and decide for yourself if what Im saying actually is writen in the verse I used?"


All I ask is that you treat my teaching the same way the Jews treated Paul's teaching, and what they did with Paul is to open their Bible's and looked to see if what Paul was saying was in the Scriptures was there as he claimed?


An example of what I ask of my reader is this --- "I say that the first thing listed in the Bible that God created in the beginning was "The Heavens"

Is this true or not?"



and on another note:
You know, while I never actually care if anyone believes what im saying, BUT......BUT..... I do actually care that I write in a style that is easy to read.

I try to write my posts so that any person , regardless of their history with the church, will be able to read what Im saying and grasp what Im talking about.

There you go again leaving off my point. Repeat after me, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S

WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD.

Let’s make this clear as clear can possibly get, and I think I speak for the others on this single point,

The only misunderstanding here not being addressed is this,

Why Alan doesn’t include all related scripture upon this subject!?!?

To date, when we ask you this question over and over and over and, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,!

You still persist to return the same old line “ask me anything about evolution in Genesis”. You never

want to contemplate all the rest of related scripture that expresses God’s will. Nope, not from Alan,

aint gonna happen.

That’s it, nothing more. Alan doesn’t want God’s will expressed on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-------------------------------

We say all of God’s word, ,

But you say “No”, you don’t want all of God’s word.

We say but there is indeed other verses that apply to dismiss the notion of evolution, ,

But you say “No”, you don’t want other verses that apply.

We say there is reasoning in many books of the Bible that deal with topic of evolution, ,

But you say “No”, you don’t want other books of the Bible.

We say it is God’s will that speaks to us on this topic from those books, ,

But you say “No”, you don’t want to hear God’s will.

-------------------------------

Here, let me help you out of that pressure this returns you to, wait, wait, , ,

“I don’t understand your wording here.”

Isn’t that what you would say? “I don’t understand”

You don’t understand when confronted with the idea that God Himself might have something contrary to say?

--------------------------------

What did they used to call this? “Cop-out”, wasn’t it? That’s what they used to call someone wanting to avoid something un-wanted.

But that’s it isn’t it?

You want to say “I DON”T UNDERSTAND” when all someone says is it is wrong in black and white.

Yep, that’s our Alan when dealing with correction from God’s will, ,

At this point, you can now spot it a mile off no matter how many or how accurate the corrections in God’s word concerning evolution there are, , Alan’s rude cookie-cutter response will always be the same, ,

“I don’t understand”

And

“I teach from Genesis”

------------------------------

When he says,

"if you got a question from Genesis I’m interested”, ,

Translation from his actions of that comes down to “I'm not interested in God’s will”!

This – is – what – I – mean – by – Alan – being – a – false – teacher – and – troublemaker.

My logic stands.

There you go Alan, all set for your only Genesis response, , , ,

I seek any questions you might have on anything I have said, or on any questions about any verse of the Bible I have used, or anything I have taught on the topic of the origins of life on the earth according to the bible.

I have quoted many verses in Genesis that is true, but also other parts of the bible that deal with the same time in earth's history as talked about in the Genesis creation story.

If you have a question about ANY of these things?...just ask.


If you dont?...then that's great and so I shall continue with talking about some of the things I wanted to get to now that deal with the teachings of YEC as compared to what the Bible teaches.






Oh and just one clarification:
When I say that "I don't understand " the way you write, its because (unlike your last post ,that was actually not hard to understand at all by the way) I dont understand the way you write.

It's your writing style....

The style you write within most of the time is not something I can follow at all.

And, Im not the only person to speak about this...
For I have seen a few other people report the same thing about not being able to follow your posts due to your writing style.

Kinda like reading a bunch of random words strung together with no common idea behind them, no concept to tie them into a sentence.


However,I do note that you dont write within that style all the time, and that may mean to us that its a choice you make...and that you are not trapped within this choice all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will go on and tell you how and where the "light" came from in Genesis in the next post, so stay tuned!

---

The source for all the "light" talked about in Genesis is not an unknown source.

Its not a magic source.

Its not a invented idea that you had to read about in a YEC textbook or on a YEC website.

The source for all the Genesis lights is listed at Genesis 1:1 where is tells us that the very first thing God's word says that "In the beginning God created the Heavens..."


In the Bible the term "Heavens" can mean in context a few different things.
But of these different things is the idea that the word "Heavens"is talking about all the stars in the night sky.

Now the sun being also a star,is covered within this term "heavens"and so what we are to learn from the Genesis 1:1 verse is that God created stars like our sun right at the start of his creative work.

So Genesis 1:1 is telling us that God made the sun....as well as all the other suns/stars and all the other stuff up there in the sky.


So this means that when we get to the events talked about on the 4th day, and we read about the "greater light" we do sowith the understanding that we already have the sun created.

Therefore the 4th day is talking about the "light" of the sun....just as you would expect when you read the text and dont add anything toit.


The 4th day is talking about seeing the "greater light"of the sun....this is what changed!

The greater light was now seen on the earth.



Ther *** 38 verse tells us that the reason the earth was in 'darkness" in Genesis was due to thick "clouds" that God had wrapped the earth within.
And the Genesis story at day 4 tell us about what was seen different as such thick clouds thinned away to how the sky appears today!


a simple way to understand the whole story from start to finish...and, with no need to invent a magic light source! :)

Again, ,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaellS

You never want to contemplate all the rest of related scripture that expresses God’s will. Nope, not from Alan, aint gonna happen.

---

The most important thing surrounding everything we say. Does Alan take note of it. His actions speak for themselves concerning God's will, , ,

"No".

1 Timothy 6:20


O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babbling and Contradictions of what is Falsely Called Knowledge—



Alan will not repent from pushing the demonic heretical lie of evolution.

Jude, any time you got a question, or want to have a conversation about this topic, just let me know...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Again, ,



The most important thing surrounding everything we say. Does Alan take note of it. His actions speak for themselves concerning God's will, , ,

"No".

---

I think someone is just a bit chicken to face my challenge...


I should build a coop because there are so many of them around here... :)


it must be so frustrating for you guys.... not being able to challenge my views and then only have the lame excuse, "How dare you talk about that" as your only defense.... :)


You guys seem to only want to duck and hide and hope the bad man goes away?

(In my martial arts cl*** we call that the "Turtle Defense")

What? Are you insinuating we p***-over God’s will? Have you no defense as charged, false-teacher?

Is that what you, Mr. Clarity who wasted people’s time with hundreds of post wish to introduce – demonism?

There you have it ladies and gentlemen, after scores of post, Alan just couldn’t quite bring himself to admit what was on his heart all this time,

Let the scriptures speak for themselves,

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” (Matt 7:21)

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt 12:50)

Who would be so foolish to ***ume the ***le of a scriptural pervert, and attempt to lead people astray, saying, whoever can’t convince themselves to rise against God’s will is a “chicken”?

Wrong, we are “brothers”, and wish you would rise out of this godless stupor.

What? Are you insinuating we p***-over God’s will? Have you no defense as charged, false-teacher?

Is that what you, Mr. Clarity who wasted people’s time with hundreds of post wish to introduce – demonism?

There you have it ladies and gentlemen, after scores of post, Alan just couldn’t quite bring himself to admit what was on his heart all this time,

Let the scriptures speak for themselves,

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” (Matt 7:21)

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt 12:50)

Who would be so foolish to ***ume the ***le of a scriptural pervert, and attempt to lead people astray, saying, whoever can’t convince themselves to rise against God’s will is a “chicken”?

Wrong, we are “brothers”, and wish you would rise out of this godless stupor.