Calling evolution "theistic" dosen't make it true.

Radio Host Hank Hanegraaff Supports Evolutionary, Old Earth Proponent

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/k...rth-proponent/

"Hanegraaff used to be a fairly ardent young-earth creationist, but has become more open ..."


http://oldearthcreationism.blogspot....-and-hank.html

Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective


http://www.reasons.org/articles/nota...th-perspective

Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective


http://www.reasons.org/articles/nota...th-perspective

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

[B].......

as things went along I became aware later of this Dr Walter Martin guy, and I remember so many times people would call into his radio Answer man show, with a question about the Young Earth Creationism teachings, and I remember how Walter would never come down on the side of Ken ham on any such question..


Im glad to see that the current Bible Answer man host also does not support the Young earth teachings too!

so im in good company on that issue...

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You do realize now that I'm always absolutely right all the time ,correct?

http://www.creationliberty.com/artic...ministries.php




" "With the above biblical data in mind, [supporting the "day-age" billions of years]... most of the strongest arguments against the creationist viewpoint currently being made by contemporary science are eliminated when we let go of our insistence upon a 6,000-10,000 year old earth. From the standpoint of presenting an effective apologetic (defense) for the Christian faith, this point must be considered. Why put heavy emphasis on a doctrine that can stand in the way of some people's arriving at Christian faith when it is not even certain that the biblical data supports the obstacle in question?" [i.e. the Bible data is not certain the earth is young]
-Christian Research Ins***ute, lead by Hank Hanegraaff, The Creation Story: How Old is the Earth?, "

http://www.cross.tv/114416

If I didn’t know any better, a certain p***ing fad is trying desperately to overcome reality.

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“Heed the still small voice that so seldom leads us wrong, and never into folly.” - Marquise du Deffand

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC8gjcTqfjQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3qh-heyoFk

>>>>>>>as I have said...OVER AND OVER.....



I can remember many times when Dr Walter Martin was asked a question about Genesis or evolution, Walter would always give his answer in such a way as to always allow for the vast age of the earth required by evolution.

As I also said many times, Im not really sure if Walter actually believed in evolution,but i do know that he made a special point each time he answers such questions on the story of Genesis that he would make sure everyone understood that there is nothing in the Bible that says the earth could not be millions of years old...

Im glad to see that the current Bible Answer Man also has taken a stand against the teaching of the Young Earth gang....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF439O_-jMM

I could go on.......

I just wanted to make sure everyone watching this topic understands that "Alan knows his stuff".

I have seen it before....I seen the smile in the eyes of the YEc believers I have debated in the past when they think for a brief moment, "They got me".
They dont count on the fact that I never post anything thats not true...

It's just like that story I told today to you guys, where I asked the cl*** if the Bible taught that the 7th day of Genesis had ended yet?

"Sure is does", was their confident response as they smiled and opened their bibles to find the verse that they all expected to teach what they believe it taught....

Only to have their smiles fade from their faces as they began to stumble from one page of the Bible to the next as they desperately searched for an expected teaching that simply is not found in the Bible...







Its just like the post we saw by Jude a while back that suggested that the idea of an old Earth is a very new conclusion within the Christian church.

Thats just dead wrong!

The idea that the "days" talked about in Genesis cant be automatically ***umed to be just normal 24 hour days goes back to the very beginnings of Christian Bible scholarship.

Lets name-drop a few here now :

Justin Martyr ...

Origen ...

Augustine...


So the modern teaching known as "theistic evolution" draws on the ancient tradition of understanding Genesis in light of our current knowledge about the universe.




Thus - what Im teaching here today is completely within the normal ways great Christians teachers have addressed the Book of Genesis in the past.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I could go on.......

I just wanted to make sure everyone watching this topic understands that "Alan knows his stuff".

You do realize now that I'm always absolutely right all the time ,correct?

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“For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.” Mat 12:34

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Originally Posted by disciple

“For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.” Mat 12:34

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I'm full of truth...

I'm not sure as for others?..

When I say something it's only after I have done my research, looked at the Scripture, checked the reference, listened to the teaching.
Thus when I speak I speak from knowledge and understanding.

That's also why when I post something on this Forum it's something you can bank-on being correct.


That may be also why when some people that dont do the needed research, don't dare look at the Scripture, never bother to check the reference, nor listen to the teacher , always seem to post an idea that ****s up in their face!

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I'm full of truth...

I'm not sure as for others?..

When I say something it's only after I have done my research, looked at the Scripture, checked the reference, listened to the teaching.
Thus when I speak I speak from knowledge and understanding.

That's also why when I post something on this Forum it's something you can bank-on being correct.


That may be also why when some people that dont do the needed research, don't dare look at the Scripture, never bother to check the reference, nor listen to the teacher , always seem to post an idea that ****s up in their face!

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Alan,

So far you have ignored all legitimate posts in this attempt at a discussion. You have ignored proven scientific laws that refute evolution, the same science you run to whenever it suits your purposes. You have ignored many verses of scripture, in context, that refute your belief in evolution. You have ignored the very words of Jesus that verify the creation account in Genesis, a creation that does not include evolution, chance or death. And why? The answer is here from your own lips," I just wanted to make sure everyone watching this topic understands that "Alan knows his stuff".
So you really can't see what's wrong with that thinking?

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Originally Posted by jude1:3

You are promoting Heresy Alan.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

that junk is just your personal opinion
Do you really think i care about your personal opinions?

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Anyone following this thread who exhibits one s**** of control for thought as Christ desires, do consider this quote of his a little further; for when the time is right on issues that do come up, , oh yes, spirit-#170* does care, especially if he sees a victory to support his view by the much needed word.

Obviously, from the start of this thread, it is no surprise when someone introduces correction in the word, or the voice of Christians speaking the same tone comes forward as one, he walks away from it, , in this case, correcting ourselves towards stability on “evolution”.

But allow me to mention something on that so-called “care” he reportedly chooses when and where to incorporate. I think he is selectively very active when it really does matter to him. When he mentions he doesn’t “care” it is untrustworthy hogwash, I think it is just more damage control. I think this has been a teachable account to the mind of one that submits to something that steals a portion of sensitivity for openness. So very, very sad, what a waste

For he dare not consider directly contesting the voice of Christian unity on this site/issue, that is too close to home. We must go a fetch another video. Why? Because it frees up being engaged in responsibility for oneself, it frees up being entangled from reasoning with us since that would require him to provide an open mind to prove the claim against the weight of the word. Something he repeatedly wants to confuse with a lack of promotion.

As for what gets under Alan’s skin to amount to his version of “care”, I think have seen it before. Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine. The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day. The poster just about had me pinned when at last I provided the sought after proof, I might add, deep proof and thereafter never recovered from me carrying the discussion’s logic in a sling.

Keeping in mind, that heated contention was specifically contingent in the word for all involved, and like evolution, also an issue of being known to resist correction by many church-minded folks who are themselves in error. Was Alan following the thread for which he might have been silently opposing me on? Who knows? One thing is certain, the pro/con at***ude on that issue are very dear to both.

This I did notice interestingly enough, I think he was and did “care” on that occasion to read along, with that discussion he thought the poster was sure to win big over me on, , this thing which continues to be very controversial. Regardless, for what followed, Alan then vanished for a trust me - un-customarily long long time.

Do we believe him when he says he doesn’t “care”? It may just be, the distant rumblings of detonations that are set off are eventually decided upon just how destructive, or successful they were, depending on your “personal opinion”.

*”who was and is and is to come”

Lengthy second attempt.

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

Anyone following this thread who exhibits one s**** of control for thought as Christ desires, do consider this quote of his a little further; for when the time is right on issues that do come up, , oh yes, spirit-#179* does care, especially if he sees a victory to support his view by the much needed word.

Obviously, from the start of this thread, it is no surprise when someone introduces correction in the word, or the voice of Christians speaking the same tone comes forward as one, he walks away from it, , in this case, correcting ourselves towards stability on “evolution”.

But allow me to mention something on that so-called “care” he reportedly chooses when and where to incorporate. I think he is selectively very active when it really does matter to him. When he mentions he doesn’t “care” it is untrustworthy hogwash, I think it is just more damage control. I think this has been a teachable account to the mind of one that submits to something that steals a portion of sensitivity for openness. So very, very sad, what a waste

For he dare not consider directly contesting the voice of Christian unity on this site/issue, that is too close to home. We must go a fetch another video. Why? Because it frees up being engaged in responsibility for oneself, it frees up being entangled from reasoning with us since that would require him to provide an open mind to prove the claim against the weight of the word. Something he repeatedly wants to confuse with a lack of promotion.

As for what gets under Alan’s skin to amount to his version of “care”, I think have seen it before. Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine. The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day. The poster just about had me pinned when at last I provided the sought after proof, I might add, deep proof and thereafter never recovered from me carrying the discussion’s logic in a sling.

Keeping in mind, that heated contention was specifically contingent in the word for all involved, and like evolution, also an issue of being known to resist correction by many church-minded folks who are themselves in error. Was Alan following the thread for which he might have been silently opposing me on? Who knows? One thing is certain, the pro/con at***ude on that issue are very dear to both.

This I did notice interestingly enough, I think he was and did “care” on that occasion to read along, with that discussion he thought the poster was sure to win big over me on, , this thing which continues to be very controversial. Regardless, for what followed, Alan then vanished for a trust me - un-customarily long long time.

Do we believe him when he says he doesn’t “care”? It may just be, the distant rumblings of detonations that are set off are eventually decided upon just how destructive, or successful they were, depending on your “personal opinion”.

*”who was and is and is to come”

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Originally Posted by disciple

Alan,

So far you have ignored all legitimate posts in this attempt at a discussion.

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Nope, thats wrong,
I actually have been the lone voice asking people to open their bibles and to check out the Scriptures that Im talking about to see if I am quoting them correctly.

I have always suggested that if a person disagrees with my teachings that they should open their own Bible and share the Scriptures that they think do not support my views.

But in response to my request to "Keep it centered on the Bible", what do I receive in return?...personal smears, and the standard attack against evolution- "Evolution is the work of the Boogeyman" :)

Be that as it may, Im still going to keep suggesting that if anyone wants to learn what genesis is teaching us, all they have to do is grab their Bible, and follow along as i go over what Genesis is teaching.

If they have even the slightest doubt that the Bible is actually saying what I claim it says?...then go read the verse Im talking about to see what it truly says there...


it's that simple.

check out every verse i list to see if what im says is true....(Just like they did with the techings of Paul)

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Nope, thats wrong,
I actually have been the lone voice asking people to open their bibles and to check out the Scriptures that Im talking about to see if I am quoting them correctly.

I have always suggested that if a person disagrees with my teachings that they should open their own Bible and share the Scriptures that they think do not support my views.

But in response to my request to "Keep it centered on the Bible", what do I receive in return?...personal smears, and the standard attack against evolution- "Evolution is the work of the Boogeyman" :)

Be that as it may, Im still going to keep suggesting that if anyone wants to learn what genesis is teaching us, all they have to do is rb their Bible, and follow along as i go over what Genesis is teaching. If they have even the slightest doubt that the Bible is actually saying what I claim it says?...then go read the verse Im talking about to see what it truy says there...


check out every verse i list to see if what im says is true....(Just like they did with the techings of Paul)

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I second that Disciple. Translation provided:

Promotion vs Discussion

Please stop devaluing the latter.

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

I second that Disciple.
.

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well you can do whatever you want..

The truth is, i dont understand most of your posts and I doubt I ever will.

so you can have fun, agree with whomever you want, I dont really care..

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well you can do whatever you want..

The truth is, i dont understand most of your posts and I doubt I ever will.

so you can have fun, agree with whomever you want, I dont really care..

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Well then let me take this opportunity to scale it back for you.

Here we have a blatant chance to discuss the difference between the two items mentioned in my last post and detailed in Disciple’s:

Promotion and Discussion

What may I ask prevents you from speaking with people rather than down to them from your promotional perch? Keep in mind the word of emphasis – PROMOTION.

Sounds pretty simple in my book.

And you haven’t ignored? Ha!

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine. The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day.

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I need a bit more information about that topic you are pointing us too....

I dont remember it off-hand, but I am sure that if I did post something there that it was pithy.




(and if I had to spank someone's errors with the Bible's truths, then Im not surprised later to find that someone has it in for me and seeks to find some way to even the score)


but like i said, be that as it may I will keep asking people to put my views to the test as they did with the teachings of Paul...

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

What may I ask prevents you from speaking with people rather than down to them from your promotional perch?

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I speak only what I read in the Scriptures...

If you want to stand on equal footing with me, guess what you have to do then?

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Originally Posted by disciple

Alan,

You have ignored proven scientific laws that refute evolution,

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I dont defend evolution....
I dont teach evolution...

I simply point out to people that if you stick to the words found in Genesis, that nothing there teaches against evolution.

I believe that evolution and genesis walk hand in hand, and offer the student a well-rounded view of the same earth history...

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Originally Posted by disciple

t "Alan knows his stuff".

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One time I was teaching a sunday school adult cl***, and we got into the whole genesis/evolution topic...and after cl*** one of the other students came up to me and asked why I seemd to know everything on this topic?

I answered and said that I dont know everything, I just know well what I know....

I do the research.

I stuck to the Bible too, that's the key thing with me.
I stick to the words found in the text.

I dont add
I dont fake
I dont need to lie or misquote.

I just read it and believe it.


thats why people do so poorly against me in a debate on Genesis, for when they take me on there, they are walking into my kitchen and that's where I do my cooking!

Repeat is so tiresome

Repeat is so tiresome

Fifth attempt, Where is my comment?

Sorry if I don’t understand your refusal to come to the table openly.

How would I do what we all request if I were you? Sure, glad you asked, be glad to show you.

Per Disciple’s post # 215

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Oh, sorry I missed those. But man, that is quite a bit to ask isn’t it? I mean, I got to guard my convictions you know? People can say just about anything, but I’ll tell you what, how about if I just say for now, I’ll try harder at discussion, okay?

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I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, we have just committed ourselves to too many circles. Would this be acceptable dialog?

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

Fifth attempt, Where is my comment?

Sorry if I don’t understand your refusal to come to the table openly.

How would I do what we all request if I were you? Sure, glad you asked, be glad to show you.

Per Disciple’s post # 215



I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, we have just committed ourselves to too many circles. Would this be acceptable dialog?

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I have no idea what you are attempting to say?...

I do not understand much of anything you post on the forum.

You seem unable to post sentences that I can read and understand.


Your posts to me read like a stringing together of dissociated words, picked at random.

Moving on-



I believe later today I would like to share my thoughts on the following teachings that I find in my Bible...

Animals died before the sin of Adam.
All life, both human and animals life is from the same single source.
The single source for all life, is the earth itself.

Please let me know if you would like to see the scripture reference that supports each of these teachings?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You seem unable to post sentences that I can read and understand.


Your posts to me read like a stringing together of dissociated words, picked at random.

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No problem,

Can you define the difference between promotion and discussion?

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

No problem,

Can you define the difference between promotion and discussion?

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well..I guess i could look it up, if you demand my definition be totally correct...

But off hand I would say that on a message forum such as this you find that the posts are a mix of many forms of interactions.

I cant speak for others and what they may be doing, But I can share what i come here to accomplish.

I like to write.
I like to write on things I believe are true and supported by the Bible.
I like to dig into why I believe the things that I believe.
Many times there is a topic going that I might have a general feeling about, yet have never bothered to put my thoughts down in a written form.
So this forum allows me a chance to really see what I believe, to really find out how strongly I think about some topics.

Im not at all interested in showing up here to learn anything from other people.

But if asked, I do enjoy showing others what I believe and why, ...


Some of the things you will note about my writings is that I tend to not post on a topic that I have not done research on.
I dont post a lot of comments on the Mormon section.
I dont post things Im not well-schooled in and have a history dealing with.
This allows me to only post comments that are things that are true....and able to be put to the test.

If I post that I think that the Mormon Smith was a dirty old man, its because i think I can back that up.


I invite people to regard my views with suspicion,and to question the things I say the bible teaches.
I only ask that they put my views to the same test that they put the teachings of Paul to.

Now what am I here to promote?......Im here to promote truth.
I support the idea that a Bible student can open his bible and read the words as they appear and find the same truth that I claim.
I push people all the time to put down their fancy YEC textbooks, and read the Bible to see what it really says, and not just depend on a textbook to tell them what it means.

I am not at all interested in any discussion that cast doubt on the right and need Bible students have to dig into the story of genesis as deeply as I do in the search for truth.

Im not at all interested in any discussion where the idea is being promoted that we should not call into question many YEC teachings that lack support in the text.

Im not at all interested in any discussion that might suggest some topics are "off-limits" for Christians to question.



when I quote a Bible verse and say "it teaches that animals and humans share a source", I expect the person that might disagree with me to open their Bible and share a verse too.
Im not at all interested the posts of people that simply keep saying, "Evolution is of the devil"...as if that personal opinion of their's mattered to anyone at all...


so in other words....If Im able to quote Genesis to prove my ideas, you better be able to quote genesis to prove yours in response, or I have little time to all that other personal ****.

One time I was in a small group Bible setting, and I was sharing what the Bible taught as to the fact that there is no end to the 7th day, and that God made the sun before the 4th day etc, and the teacher of this little cl*** was dumbfounded at what i was saying.

He kept saying, I was not taking the Bible story literal....

So I cut thought his fog by asking him the same question I asked here (and never got an answr to by the way)
I asked him, "The Young Earthers claim that the Bible teaches that God created the light before there was a sun, but what does the bible literally say in black and white was the very first thing God created "In the beginning"?


I loved his response,for he thought about my question for a moment, then considered what the Bible said...and then shrugged and said,
""Heavens", but you cant that that literal"

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Originally Posted by MichaellS

Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine.

The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day.

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what topic was that?

what did I say?

How was I in error?

Let me guess...I was promoting the Golden Rule again?

Animals died before the sin of Adam.There is nothing in the bible that says animals could not die before the sin of Adam.
it's that simple.

The Bible does not teach that animals die due to the sin of Adam...well, except for the animals like sheep and doves that die due to being killed as a sacrifice.








All life, both human and animals life is from the same single source.
The single source for all life, is the earth itself.

In evolution we trace back all life to the very starting point we find that the first building blocks of life are made of the earth itself.
So in a very real way, we are a part of the earth that has come to life.

The book of Genesis agrees with evolution on this matter.
In the Bible we find that all animal and all humans share a common source.
That source is said to be this earth itself too.

So when you trace back evolution to the starting point, the place you get to is where we also start in genesis.

So to sum up:

theistic-evolution works fine next to the teachings of the bible and the teaching of science.

I believe that theistic evolution has a lot of merit, that it reflects the world around us, and represents a concept that works hand-in-hand with the story of genesis.


This is why we dont have to worry that Genesis does not teach evolution,
Nor do we have to worry that evolution has no place for God's hand.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

>>>>>>>as I have said...OVER AND OVER.....



I can remember many times when Dr Walter Martin was asked a question about Genesis or evolution, Walter would always give his answer in such a way as to always allow for the vast age of the earth required by evolution.

As I also said many times, Im not really sure if Walter actually believed in evolution,but i do know that he made a special point each time he answers such questions on the story of Genesis that he would make sure everyone understood that there is nothing in the Bible that says the earth could not be millions of years old...

Im glad to see that the current Bible Answer Man also has taken a stand against the teaching of the Young Earth gang....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF439O_-jMM

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bump...........

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and Whoever Loves and Practices A Lie.



Revelation 22:14-15

And YEC is that lie...