Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Libby

None. But, I do believe some of the general teachings are correct. One example...I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe it, but generally speaking, I'd call that a "hit".

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Libby,
There is nothing within the Biblical scriptures that can prove we lived a pre-existant life. How can you believe in such a doctrine?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe. . .

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So you have co-existed with God forever and that God did not create you?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think so, since LDS prophets never claimed to speak for God 24/7. Not everything they spoke was revelation; Joseph made that clear.

Plus, I think people like John Calvin were pretty sure that they were being inspired by God, even though they didn't call themselves prophets. Many people, even today, believe that Calvin was inspired in his interpretation of the Bible. Same for Luther and Wesley and many others. My great great Grandfather was a follower of John Wesley, and he sure did believe he was inspired by God.

There is clearly a double standard being employed by critics of the LDS Church.

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Libby : --- Hello. Not trying to be mean or hurt your feelings , but ... to put it plainly : You are wrong !

From Joseph Smith to Brigham Young ( and the Missouri-based Mormons , and most of the Mormon-splinter groups ,,, ) Mormons have said that the President of the L.D.S. group is a "Living Prophet". Matter o' fact ... in about the 1970's the M.M.s would come door-to-door and that was their standard question on the doorstep : ..." If there was a Prophet from God alive on the earth , wouldn't you want to know what he has to say ?..." If the person at the house would say "Yes I would." Then the M.M.s would schedule a meeting for later.

Now --- as to you mentioning John Calvin , Martin Luther , and John Wesley ...

( I think in Mystery novels/stories what you did is called a "red Herring"... :rolleyes: )

.... Neither of those three gents EVER claimed to be a Prophet ! None , nein , zip , nada , non , no , zero , goose eggs !
Never did they claim "Prpphet" status , nor did the people in the congregations / pews of the Churches/Chapels they taught & preached at ever thought those guys were "prophets"... and those 3 guys would have been :mad: if anyone said that about them.

I've read and listened to several Biographies of those gents , and they did not believe that there are modern-day prophets around . The only "prophets" that Calvin , Luther & Wesley were interested in were REAL prophets such as Isaiah , Jeremiah , Amos , Malachi , Joel , Hosea , Micah , and those gents found in the Hebrew Bible ( O.T. ) , the kind of prophets who spoke FOR God Almighty , and warned the people of sin , and falling away from God their maker. Real prophets make true prophecies.

Now --- howzabout we get back to the THREAD TOPIC ? ! ?

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Originally Posted by neverending

Richard,
So you think it is ok for the members of your church to live Communism? That is what the Law of Consecration was, everyone to share equally but not everyone, for what of the President of the Church who lived in luxury, owned all the land up City Creek Canyon and owning the Lion House. Did you know BY charged people to go up the canyon to cut down trees? Yes, he most certainly did....great example of brotherly love....NOT! Pres. Monson lives in a condo worth over a million dollars and has a limo with a private driver. Seems he certainly is enjoying the spoils of the giving of your members. What would be wrong with living in a modest home and drive yourself where you need to go?

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Oh Neverending... you have made yet another mistake in your long list of errors. To put it simply; Communism is a forced socialism, whereas The Law of Consecration, is a voluntary socialism. In fact the best form of government in the world is a form of socialism called a Theocracy. This will be implemented when the Lord comes again to rule on this earth personally.

In the future, please try to refrain from replying to subjects in which you know nothing about.

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Originally Posted by neverending

I call you Richard because you speak as he did....sorry if it offends you. I will again repeat myself even though you claim whatever I say has no credibility.

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Not true... you made it clear before that you called me Richard because you thought i was using a sock puppet. I have no respect for someone who can not admit to their mistakes.

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Originally Posted by neverending

Definitions of Christian
believer in Jesus Christ as savior:

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There you go... in using that broad brush you just included the LDS Church. When can I expect my discount Christian card?

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Originally Posted by theway

whereas The Law of Consecration, is a voluntary socialism.

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If the law of consecration was implemented could some LDS choose not to participate and still be a member in good standing and be on tract for exaltation?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So you have co-existed with God forever and that God did not create you?

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How about you answer my other question first. How do you know that every word in the Bible is from God?

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Originally Posted by Libby

How do you know that every word in the Bible is from God?

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Because of the eye witness testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and through a spiritual witness. However we don't have the original m****cripts but rather we have copies of copies and thus we have variant readings within the NT m****cripts.

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Originally Posted by Decalogue

Libby : --- Hello. Not trying to be mean or hurt your feelings , but ... to put it plainly : You are wrong !

From Joseph Smith to Brigham Young ( and the Missouri-based Mormons , and most of the Mormon-splinter groups ,,, ) Mormons have said that the President of the L.D.S. group is a "Living Prophet". Matter o' fact ... in about the 1970's the M.M.s would come door-to-door and that was their standard question on the doorstep : ..." If there was a Prophet from God alive on the earth , wouldn't you want to know what he has to say ?..." If the person at the house would say "Yes I would." Then the M.M.s would schedule a meeting for later.

Now --- as to you mentioning John Calvin , Martin Luther , and John Wesley ...

( I think in Mystery novels/stories what you did is called a "red Herring"... :rolleyes: )

.... Neither of those three gents EVER claimed to be a Prophet ! None , nein , zip , nada , non , no , zero , goose eggs ! Never did they , or the people in the congregations / pews of the Churches/Chapels they taught & preached at ever think those guys were "prophets"... and those 3 guys would have been :mad: if anyone said that about them.

I've read and listened to several Biographies of those gents , and they did not believe that there are modern-day prophets around . The only "prophets" that Calvin , Luther & Wesley were interested in were REAL prophets such as Isaiah , Jeremiah , Amos , Malachi , Joel , Hosea , Micah , and those gents found in the Hebrew Bible ( O.T. ) , the kind of prophets who spoke FOR God Almighty , and warned the people of sin , and falling away from God their maker. Real prophets make true prophecies.

Now --- howzabout we get back to the THREAD TOPIC ? ! ?

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No, I am not wrong, nor did I claim that Calvin and other Church Fathers were "prophets". I think I said, specifically, that they were not. But, that doesn't keep people from reading and revering and teaching and believing their words, in regards to interpretations of the Bible. I have two large volumes of Calvin's works (The Ins***utes) that I read and studied, when I was interested in the Calvinist perspective and I know many, many Calvinists who study those books like they study the Bible. There are a gazillion books and cl***es on the subject of Calvinism...I have a small library of Calvinist books. So, you may not have been a "prophet", but he was and IS extremely influential, even to this day, in Reformed Christian circles. In the Reformed Church I attended, for two years, Calvin's writings were quoted just as often, if not moreso, as Joseph Smith is quoted in Gospel Doctrine cl***. Our Minister fairly often included a quote from Calvin, even in his main sermon.

The point is, Protestant Christianity has a "church history", as well, and it is not all neat and tidy (there are some terrible atrocities in the history of the Protestant Church), just as there are some potentially embarr***ing things in LDS church history. I think there are some pretty terrible atrocities in the Old Testament, plus very imperfect prophets, as well. Do those things make your church untrue? Does it make your church a "cult"?

And I am on topic. The topic, as always, on this board is "Why I am a Christian, but you are not".

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Because of the eye witness testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and through a spiritual witness. However we don't have the original m****cripts but rather we have copies of copies and thus we have variant readings within the NT m****cripts.

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So, you were convinced, primarily, based on your intellect? Just the facts (as you perceive them)? How do you know that the evidence in that book is reliable? How do you know the information is true? It's all second and third hand information.

Btw, I'm not saying it isn't. Just asking..

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Originally Posted by Libby

How do you know that the evidence in that book is reliable? How do you know the information is true? It's all second and third hand information.

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Two reasons

1. The NT is eyewitness testimony from multiple witnesses.

2. Spiritual confirmation.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Two reasons

1. The NT is eyewitness testimony from multiple witnesses.

2. Spiritual confirmation.

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Okay. The spiritual confirmation was what I was looking for. Wouldn't you consider that the more important of the two?

I would, personally, put that first.

LDS claim eyewitness testimony of the Book of Mormon, as well. Plus, the very important spiritual confirmation.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Okay. The spiritual confirmation was what I was looking for. Wouldn't you consider that the more important of the two?

I would, personally, put that first.

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No I think both are important.

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Originally Posted by Libby

LDS claim eyewitness testimony of the Book of Mormon, as well. Plus, the very important spiritual confirmation.

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But their is no evidence in the Americas that support the history of the Book of Mormon. This is a major difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

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But their is no evidence in the Americas that support the history of the Book of Mormon. This is a major difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

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That doesn't make the book untrue. It just makes it lacking in evidence. (Not to say I believe the claims of the Book of Mormon, but lack of evidence doesn't automatically make a claim untrue). LDS claim a spiritual witness of this book, just as you claim a spiritual witness of the Bible.

There are many claims in the Bible that have no supporting evidence and yet you claim to believe every word is from God.

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Originally Posted by Libby

That doesn't make the book untrue. It just makes it lacking in evidence. (Not to say I believe the claims of the Book of Mormon, but lack of evidence doesn't automatically make a claim untrue). LDS claim a spiritual witness of this book, just as you claim a spiritual witness of the Bible.

There are many claims in the Bible that have no supporting evidence and yet you claim to believe every word is from God.

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Libby,
Then I guess you had best not read anything in the Bible nor the BoM since you haven't a clue as to whether these books are from God. I do trust that when Christ said, that HIS WORD WOULD NEVER P*** AWAY, (Luke 21:33) that we could believe it, trust it, for God does not LIE! JS LIED all the time but you know, believe what you want but only God will make the final decision as to where He wants you to spend eternity.

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Originally Posted by Libby

There are many claims in the Bible that have no supporting evidence and yet you claim to believe every word is from God.

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:( ... aanndd there it is folks ,,, the Standard Mormon L.D.S. fall back ( line of defence ) . When confronted with facts that show the S.L.C. - based Religion is built on sand and fog --- the mormon answer is to bring forward doubts and criticisms of the very written words of God , The Creator ... as we thankfully have recorded in The Holy Bible.

This is exactly what the serpent did in the garden when chit-chating with Eve--- Question the Words of God our Maker. Planting seeds of doubt.

Before you put your head on your pillow Libby , you need to drop on the floor face down and start begging The Redeemer to forgive you of your sins , and your insults of HIS written words , that He gave to us.

IF you were a Christian ( and so also , Mitt Romney , btw ) you would believe the Bible is Inspired by God The Holy Ghost { see 2 Tim. 3:16 } !

If you were a Christian , you would not have anything to do with a group which casts doubts on the veracity of the God-breathed Scriptures { Genesis to Revelation - 66 Books in one Bible , Amen! }, and yet that group , which calls into question the Real Scriptures ... fully accepts the BoM , P.G.P. , D. & C. . :rolleyes:

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Your screen address says you are in Southern California. You have NO reason to be horn-swaggled into buying the claims of the self-anointed / self-proclaimed "prophet & President , Joseph Smith. There are answers if you do some looking.

In the City of Orange there is an "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" Visitor Center. Go ask questions , and read the lit. , and tracts and examine. To quote from the front page of the California Penal Code : "Ignorance of the law , is NOT an excuse for violations thereof.". Get and read "The Maze of Mormonsism" by Walter Martin .

If you want to know what good Reformed , Protestant , Christians actually teach , then you have several good options in the So. Cal. area. Visit Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in La Mirada , or The R.B.C. in Centinela / Lawndale , or Sovereign Baptist Church in Ontario { and listen to Pastor Steve Marquedant , and Jeff M***ey on Sermon Audio dot com }, or Riverside Reformed Baptist Church , or Escondido Reformed Baptist Church , or Grace Community Church in Panorama City , and/or listen the a radio program on KKLA-FM ***led "The White Horse Inn" , or visit "The House of Bibles in Fullerton , and look in their Theology section. Great books and not one of them would proclaim Calvin ( or Luther , or Wesley ) a "Prophet".

I have the "Ins***utes of the Christian Religion" and it is full of good spiritual food , and little gold nuggets of "thoughts' , but it is not inspired , nor was Calvin. I say again ---> Those 3 gents gents delivered many sermons and wrote and lectured , but they never wanted people to follow them , but to follow The Saviour , The Lord Jesus Christ.

In Mormonism --- in order to get to the top level of the celestial heaven ,,, a person must confess that Joseph Smith is a "Prophet-of-God".

In Biblical Christianity the focus is on The Lord Jesus Christ. Turn to Acts chapter 16 : read verses 30,31. Not one word there about beleiving in a "prophet".

Whereas , Calvin and Luther and Wesley ,,, rather than point to themselves --- they pointed people to : " Look unto Jesus " ! Calvin and Luther and Wesley will be bowing at the Throne of God Almighty and singing songs and hymns for ages to come , while the self-appointed "prophet" Joseph Smith will be weeping and gnashing his teeth in eternal flames.

Libby --- Choose this day whom ye shall serve !

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Originally Posted by Decalogue

:( ... aanndd there it it is folks ,,, the Standard Mormon L.D.S. fall back ( line of defence ) . When confronted with facts that show the S.L.C. - based Religion is built on sand and fog --- the mormon answer is to bring forward doubts and criticisms of The Word of God The Creator ... The Holy Bible.

This is exactly what the serpent did in the garden when chit-chating with Eve--- Question the Words of God our Maker.

Before you put your head on your pillow Libby , you need to drop on the floor face down and start begging The Redeemer to forgive you of your sins , and your insults of HIS written words , that He gave to us.

IF you were a Christian ( and so also , Mitt Romney , btw ) you would believe the Bible is Inspired by God The Holy Ghost { see 2 Tim. 3:16 } !

If you were a Christian , you would not have anything to do with a group which casts doubts on the veracity of the God-breathed Scriptures { Genesis to Revelation - 66 Books in one Bible , Amen! }, and yet that group , which calls into question the Real Scriptures ... fully accepts the BoM , P.G.P. , D. & C. . :rolleyes:

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Your screen address says you are in Southern California. You have NO reason to be horn-swaggled into buying the claims of the self-anointed / self-proclaimed "prophet & President , Joseph Smith. There are answers if you do some looking.

In the City of Orange there is an "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" Visitor Center. Go ask questions , and read the lit. , and tracts and examine. To quote from the front page of the California Penal Code : "Ignorance of the law , is NOT an excuse for violations thereof.". Get and read "The maze of Mormosism" by Walter Martin .

If you want to know what good Reformed Protestant Christians actually teach , then you have several good options in the So. Cal.. Visit Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in La Mirada , or The R.B.C. in Lawndale , or Sovereign Baptist Church in Ontario { and listen to Pastor Steve Marquedant , and Jeff M***ey on Sermon Audio dot com }, or Riverside Reformed Baptist Church , or Escondido Reformed Baptist Church , and/or listen the a radio program on KKLA-FM ***led "The White Horse Inn" , or visit "The House of Bibles in Fullerton , and look in their Theology section. Great books and not one of them would proclaim Calvin ( or Luther , or Wesley ) a "Prophet". I have the "Ins***utes of the Christian Religion" and it is full of good spiritual food , and little gold nuggets of "thoughts' , but it is not inspired , nor was Calvin.

In Mormonism --- in order to get to the top level of the celestial heaven ,,, a person must confess that Joseph Smith is a "Prophet-of-God".

Whereas , Calvin and Luther and Wesley ,,, rather than point to themselves --- they point people to : " Look unto Jesus " ! Calvin and Luther and Wesley will be bowing at the Throne of God Almighty and singing songs and hymns for ages to come , while the self-appointed "prophet" Joseph Smith will be weeping and gnashing his teeth in eternal flames.

Libby --- Choose this day whom ye shall serve !

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And, here is the standard critics' response. Don't you dare question my Holy book, in the same way I question yours. That double standard in operation, again.

I know very well what Calvinists teach, Decalogue (did you not read all of my post?) and I reject most of it. I don't believe in a God who picks and chooses whom he will "save". I believe in a God who displays love & mercy towards all of his children.

I know about Ex-Mormons for Jesus. I get their newsletter (or did). I recently took myself off of their mailing list. Some nice people there, but I have moved on.

If you will take the time to notice, I did not make any truth claims about the Book of Mormon, whatsoever. I simply said, lack of evidence doesn't automatically make it untrue. That is a fact.

Please don't presume to lecture me about whom I should serve. I serve God and the truth.

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Whereas , Calvin and Luther and Wesley ,,, rather than point to themselves --- they point people to : " Look unto Jesus " ! Calvin and Luther and Wesley will be bowing at the Throne of God Almighty and singing songs and hymns for ages to come , while the self-appointed "prophet" Joseph Smith will be weeping and gnashing his teeth in eternal flames.

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Who gave you the authority to p*** final judgment on anyone?? Certainly, not the Savior. Final judgment is God's, alone.

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Originally Posted by Decalogue

Now --- as to you mentioning John Calvin , Martin Luther , and John Wesley ...

( I think in Mystery novels/stories what you did is called a "red Herring"... :rolleyes: )

.... Neither of those three gents EVER claimed to be a Prophet ! None , nein , zip , nada , non , no , zero , goose eggs ! Never did they , or the people in the congregations / pews of the Churches/Chapels they taught & preached at ever think those guys were "prophets"...

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Yes.... we know. It has been made abundantly clear to us by critics here, that the founders of Protestantism were not men called of God, received no revelations, and were uninspired; I get that. I'm just not sure how that helps your case any?

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Originally Posted by theway

Yes.... we know. It has been made abundantly clear to us by critics here, that the founders of Protestantism were not men called of God, received no revelations, and were uninspired; I get that. I'm just not sure how that helps your case any?

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Because early and late Christian writings outside the Bible are not scripture.

Now let me ask you do you stand by your "inspired" leaders?

Adam God?

Blood atonement?

The apostles killed Judas by kicking him to death?

Gold grows like the hair on your head?

Jesus was conceived by "natural action"?

On and on and on. . .

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Originally Posted by Libby

And, here is the standard critics' response. Don't you dare question my Holy book, in the same way I question yours. That double standard in operation, again.

I know very well what Calvinists teach, Decalogue (did you not read all of my post?) and I reject most of it. I don't believe in a God who picks and chooses whom he will "save". I believe in a God who displays love & mercy towards all of his children.

I know about Ex-Mormons for Jesus. I get their newsletter (or did). I recently took myself off of their mailing list. Some nice people there, but I have moved on.

If you will take the time to notice, I did not make any truth claims about the Book of Mormon, whatsoever. I simply said, lack of evidence doesn't automatically make it untrue. That is a fact.

Please don't presume to lecture me about whom I should serve. I serve God and the truth.

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And Libby....did you totally leave behind the doctrines of Mormonism? If you had, you would not be here defending it? I think you need to do some serious thinking of where your loyalties lie....you can't be a fence sitter and be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. IMHO, you are very confused and I will pray for you that God will lead you to where HE wants you to be.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Who gave you the authority to p*** final judgment on anyone?? Certainly, not the Savior. Final judgment is God's, alone.

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These things are said because they are TRUE! History has shown us the kind of man JS was....a necromancer, wife stealer which made him an adulterer, vandal when he and a mob broke into the Expositor newspaper office and destroyed it by breaking the type and worst of all, traitor to this great country by calling out for Mormons to join his militia and fight againt the State of Missouri; the LEGAL State Militia. Are these signs of a godly man, a prophet of God?? No, he never lived any kind of life worthy to call himself a prophet. His prophesies failed, so he was a FALSE PROPHET! If even on prophesy didn't come to p***, then that man should not be listened to. These are the many issues that we as Christians here have tried and tried to show the LDS that they follow an ungodly man, a self-proclaimed prophet. It was all a scam, for he learned much from his father who also was a great con artist, lying to neighbors and searching for buried treasure he told these neighbors was there on their properties but we know nothing was EVER found.
Matt. 7:16, "You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" JS's fruits were rotten!

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Originally Posted by neverending

Matt. 7:16, "You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" JS's fruits were rotten!

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While you go through your list of what you think Joseph Smith or what his life was---anyone can take a look at the church today, the people that adhere to its principles and what it stands for. To me, it represents a people who are devoted to God and thereby doing good, famly oriented as well as believing in hard work and kindness. That is my experience. Those are the fruits of the life of Joseph Smith I witness.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

While you go through your list of what you think Joseph Smith or what his life was--

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Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

While you go through your list of what you think Joseph Smith or what his life was---anyone can take a look at the church today, the people that adhere to its principles and what it stands for. To me, it represents a people who are devoted to God and thereby doing good, famly oriented as well as believing in hard work and kindness. That is my experience. Those are the fruits of the life of Joseph Smith I witness.

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Well, BJ keep thinking like that for the very foundation your church was built on was all lies,scams, adultery, vandalism, traitorous acts againt our country. Now if you want to sweep all these facts under the rug, fine it is a free country. The church still practices polygamy in its temples. So, are you saying that you deny the many gods that JS conjured up? What of works salvation? Having to be married in a temple and live ALL the Laws and Ordinances of your Church enduring to the end. How many people have lived 100% if those Laws?

I agree that the LDS have good family values but so do other churches so we can cross that one off the list, since the LDS do not have a market on family values. Do you think that those outside of Mormonism do not believe in hard work or kindness? Please Julie, you need to think outside Mormonism and realize that there are other people in the world.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.

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I'll tell you what, you can stay focused on the trash you think you have dug up from the past and I will continue to look at the fruit of today and what is happening today in the church. ;)

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Originally Posted by neverending

I agree that the LDS have good family values but so do other churches so we can cross that one off the list, since the LDS do not have a market on family values. Do you think that those outside of Mormonism do not believe in hard work or kindness? Please Julie, you need to think outside Mormonism and realize that there are other people in the world.

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Ithink there are good moral christians out there. Also, disturbing are stats like these:

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While the study’s primary report did not explore religion, some additional ****ysis focusing on sexual activity and religious identification yielded this result: 80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/0...iting-anymore/

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I think when morality and gender are taught as eternal principles rather than just fleshy, earthly principles--that youth are more likely to abstain from pre-marital sex.

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In other figures published by the Center for Disease Control, Utah was ranked at or near the bottom in live births to teens, cases of gonorrhea among men, and cases of gonorrhea among women. This data set reports the state with the highest rates of sexual activity and sexually transmitted diseases are in the South, especially Georgia, Mississippi, and South Carolina
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I'll tell you what, you can stay focused on the trash you think you have dug up from the past and I will continue to look at the fruit of today and what is happening today in the church.

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BigJ these are facts about Joseph. Character does matter especially for a person who claims to be a true prophet of God. Sometimes truth hurts.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ these are facts about Joseph. Character does matter especially for a person who claims to be a true prophet of God. Sometimes truth hurts.

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Read the OT sometimes and tell me what you think.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Read the OT sometimes and tell me what you think.

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What part did you have in mind?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What part did you have in mind?

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I don't know---how about where the donkey does the correcting? ;)

Read the D&C and see how many times Christ calls on Joseph Smith to repent. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) understand that Joseph Smith is not a perfect man. We also understand he is the prophet of the restoration of the gospel of Christ and when we follow the gospel of Christ, we see great fruits.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

. . . (Mormons) understand that Joseph Smith is not a perfect man. . . .

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Why not?

1. You are commanded to keep all of the commandments all of the time

2. God doesn't command you to do something that you cannot do.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Why not?

1. You are commanded to keep all of the commandments all of the time

2. God doesn't command you to do something that you cannot do.

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We are commandment to love the God with all of our heart, mind, and soul. Do you disagree? If you agree, what does that mean to you?

What does santification mean to you?

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Originally Posted by neverending

And Libby....did you totally leave behind the doctrines of Mormonism? If you had, you would not be here defending it? I think you need to do some serious thinking of where your loyalties lie....you can't be a fence sitter and be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. IMHO, you are very confused and I will pray for you that God will lead you to where HE wants you to be.

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I am not the subject here, NE, and Decalogue thinks we should stick to the subject. :) Really, I'm not on the fence about Mormonism. Yes, I do think some of what they teach is true (whether or not Joseph was a prophet). But, I don't buy the whole package. I just think all the hoopla about their religion is kind of silly, when Christianity faces some very similar problems.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

then where exactly did he get the other 23?...and if they were just "created" by God, then how would Christ be any different from Adam---also a creation of God?

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Heya Julie,

Interesting question. I suppose that the question where did Adam get is 46 Chromosomes is similar? The next question is where did Eve get her second X if Adam's bone had XY? God put Adam into a deep sleep to take a rib from him sounds kinda like the Holy Spirit overshadowing (what ever that is) Mary.

In regard to Jesus being like Adam if God simply supplied the missing DNA you would be correct in terms of physique. In terms of Spirit that animates the body, God blew life into the lungs of Adam whereas God the Father ordered Jesus (God the Son) into the body prepared for Him. " 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!" Phil 2:5-8

Blessings,

MacG

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Originally Posted by Libby

And, here is the standard critics' response. Don't you dare question my Holy book, in the same way I question yours. That double standard in operation, again.

I know very well what Calvinists teach, Decalogue (did you not read all of my post?) and I reject most of it. I don't believe in a God who picks and chooses whom he will "save". I believe in a God who displays love & mercy towards all of his children.

I know about Ex-Mormons for Jesus. I get their newsletter (or did). I recently took myself off of their mailing list. Some nice people there, but I have moved on.

If you will take the time to notice, I did not make any truth claims about the Book of Mormon, whatsoever. I simply said, lack of evidence doesn't automatically make it untrue. That is a fact.

Please don't presume to lecture me about whom I should serve. I serve God and the truth.

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:rolleyes: Talk about "back-peddling"...

It was you that brought up the names of Calvin and Luther and Wesley. That is why I posted the info I did above. I did not want anyone reading the website to buy your false notion that those 3 gents were even a little bit like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

I have been inside churches that are descended from those 3 gents , and I very much like it when either the Pastor mentions a quote from one of them , or a quote is inserted into the Church Bulletin/announcements page.

Why ? Because those men studied and knew the old languages and knew how to exegete a p***age of holy Scripture so that the listener / person in the pew , would see that they are born in sin , and that they need a Saviour from that sin.
They then pointed the people to the ONE Redeemer who can help. John 14:6 !

Don't get upset with me . Look in the mirror and do some soul-searching . If you are taking time to type on your keyboard on this Thread and you are friendly with Mormonism ... well then , you are not friendly with The Lord God !

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

We are commandment to love the God with all of our heart, mind, and soul. Do you disagree? If you agree, what does that mean to you?

What does santification mean to you?

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I am happy to answer your questions if you want but this forum is really about your beliefs not mine.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

1. You are commanded to keep all of the commandments all of the time

2. God doesn't command you to do something that you cannot do.

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Do you believe points 1 and 2 above?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I am happy to answer your questions if you want but this forum is really about your beliefs not mine.

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I was trying to understand your idea of sanctification because we believe it is a process that will take this lifetime and the next. We believe if our faith was perfect, we would be able to do all things God commands us (such as Peter walking on water.) But faith and obedience leads to more faith and more obedience which we call santification. That is why I asked you about what you believe about santification--not to talk about your faith, but to answer questions about mine. So, Billyray, you have already said that your faith is not perfect---therefore, how does your faith become perfect?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, Billyray, you have already said that your faith is not perfect---therefore, how does your faith become perfect?

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I don't think I will ever have "perfect" faith in this life. As far as sanctification I have given you this in the past multiple times but I will be happy to give it to you again. This is a process where a person becomes more and more Christ like over time.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

We believe if our faith was perfect, we would be able to do all things God commands us. . .

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1 Nephi 3: 7 . . . for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

This verse says that you can keep the commandments because God does not give you a commandment that you can't keep.