What are the requirements to be a Christian?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the post's answers should be clear enough to anyone if they takes a moment and thinks it over....

Its like, can a man drive a car and be a Christian?...yes
Can a man be totally disgusted at his President and be a Christian?...yes
Can a man be against all countries fighting in any wars and be a Christian?...yes

The thing Im pointing to is that "acting" like a Christian, or "acting" not like a Christian is a moot point when talking about if a person actually "is' a christian.

The ONLY thing that makes a person a Christian is their faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

As long as the person does not mess with that single core Christian idea, they are Christian.

So all of the window dressing of a christian life, like being the husband of only one wife, or submitting to your government, speaking in tongues or having a good reputation are always going to be merely secondary to the only real important issue to a christian's salvation.....DO THEY BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS?

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I think this is how the world defines Christianity---I don't think it is necessarily how Christ defines Christianity. Abraham, Moses, and Joshua--I would define as part of Christ's church. And I look to the words of Christ and how he looks to the heart. I also understand that it is only God that understands truly what His spirit has shared and how those who have it have or have not acted upon it. As I said before, this question reminds me so much of the question "who is my neighbor?" because we want to put these guidelines on it that is not really ours to decide fully (just as the Pharisees wanted to define who was "in" and who was "out."---this is a judgement by God. And when push comes to shove, He will be the judge, not us. So, all we can do is observe what is and isn't Christian behavior. I ***ume that those who act in a Christian way are acting out of the goodness of God and those who do not, are not.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

.....So, all we can do is observe what is and isn't Christian behavior. I ***ume that those who act in a Christian way are acting out of the goodness of God and those who do not, are not.

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My point is that simply fails...

We can not define the term "Christian" by the manner we live like....
The only thing that we can use to define the term "Christian" is the faith of the person.
And of the things that a Christian has faith in, the most important (above all other things) is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There are millions if not Billions of people alive on the earth that are acting in a manner traditionally characterized as "Christian"....yet they are not Christian at all and could be of any faith or have no faith at all.

take a moment and listen to the ideas of a person who we honor by being on this forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmIQkX7_no

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I ***ume that those who act in a Christian way are acting out of the goodness of God and those who do not, are not.

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BigJ you aren't a Christian because you do good works. If this were the case then anyone who does good works would be Christian. Atheists do good works. Muslims do good works. Mormons do good works.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Conversion = Faith and Repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = spiritual birth (awakens the person spiritually)


Conversion and regeneration are distinct. Conversion is based on things that you do which is repent and place your faith in Christ. Regeneration is something God does to you by awakening you spiritually or being born again.


Conversion----->Salvation----->Regeneration (Arminian)


Regeneration---->Conversion----->Salvation (Reformed)


In the Arminian position a person is converted thus saved prior to regeneration. By definition a person repents and places his faith in Christ and this must precede regeneration even if by a second or less. Thus a person is saved but not born again even just for a moment. The Reformed position is that a person is regenerated then converted.

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Bump for an Arminian response. Do you guys agree or disagree with the above post?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you guys agree or disagree with the above post?

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Its like watching two sides debate over what came first...the chicken or the egg?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Bump for an Arminian response. Do you guys agree or disagree with the above post?

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It has nothing to do with Calvinism or Arminianism, but what the word of God says. Christians must align themselves with the teaching of Scriptures and not of men. The Bereans didn't just take Paul or Silas's word, they searched the Scriptures. God provides sufficient grace to all; pleads with us ("come unto me" Matt. 11.28) so "If any... whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (John 7.37, Rev. 22.17). Man is not regenerated by doing something special but by believing the Lord Jesus as his Savior: "to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave the power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.12-13)

Regeneration is God making a person spiritually alive, a new creation, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ. Before salvation, we are degenerate. After salvation we are regenerated. Conversion is the outward manifestation of regeneration.

The attainment of the fullness of such conversion is by the gradual appreciation of truth, resulting not only from regeneration, and knowledge, but from spiritual illumination of the mind. This is why the born again Christian is able to understand Scripture.

The bottom line is that FAITH is the key for these things to take place. This is what God's word says.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Its like watching two sides debate over what came first...the chicken or the egg?

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In a sense you are correct

Regeneration then conversion
Conversion then regeneration.

For the Arminian they elect themselves. They repent themselves. They develop faith themselves. Their salvation is based on their own works and actions. In essence they will their own regeneration by their actions. Am I wrong here?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Regeneration is God making a person spiritually alive, a new creation, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ.

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Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

Erik do you agree with the above formula?

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet. 1.23,25). You are born-again (regenerated) through believing the gospel upon it being preached unto you; not regenerated until you believe.

This is the common denominator seen throughout the Scriptures. FAITH and BELIEF. We can try and define born again, spiritual rebirth, conversion, regeneration, etc, but it all begins with the word: BELIEVE.

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48). How were they ordained to believe? By God foreknowing their free-choice. This is how wonderful and loving God is. He calls all to repentance.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

After salvation we are regenerated. Conversion is the outward manifestation of regeneration.

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Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = awakens the person spiritually

When is a person saved?

So which comes first conversion or regeneration? You said above conversion is after regeneration. But that is what I believe so you could not possibly believe that.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

Erik do you agree with the above formula?

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I already told you what I believe.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = awakens the person spiritually

When is a person saved?

So which comes first conversion or regeneration? You said above conversion is after regeneration. But that is what I believe so you could not possibly believe that.

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Billy, you are missing the whole point of spiritual rebirth/regeneration. It begins with hearing the word and then believing.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48).

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So who believed from YOUR scripture?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Billy, you are missing the whole point of spiritual rebirth/regeneration. It begins with hearing the word and then believing.

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I believe you. But if you have read my posts you would already know that

Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification
8) sanctification
9) glorification

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Billy, you are missing the whole point of spiritual rebirth/regeneration.

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Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = awakens the person spiritually

When is a person saved?

Conversion----->Salvation----->Regeneration (Agree or disagree?)

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

I already told you what I believe.

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No you didn't.

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration

Erik do you agree with the above formula?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

How were they ordained to believe? By God foreknowing their free-choice.

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So you elected yourself and then God ratified your own election.

If you elect yourself. Repent yourself. Muster up the faith yourself. In essence saving yourself and causing your regeneration. Doesn't this give you room to boast?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

In a sense.....

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The Arminian/Calvin debate...
Its such a waste of time...

Its like listening to people talk about the logical steps a young man takes as he falls madly in love with a girl.

People are just people.

We are not programed like that guys...

We do not have a faith life that is able to be rendered to a numeric list ....as if the Christian teaching of Salvation can be read off like a pre-flight check list.

There is only one matter that is important, and compared to it the whole Arminian/Calvin debate becomes seen as little more than bothersome .

The resurrection of Jesus is why we are Christians...

Changing the meaning of the resurrection, changing the Jesus of the resurrection, or rejecting the resurrection's importance is why a person is not a Christian.

This forum section is about Mormons, and in that light I know that there are many issues that the Mormons teach that run counter to my own views.
But that does not mean anything...

You can be a Christian and have extra Canon.
You can be a Christian and have your own Apostles
You can be a Christian and have your own temple
You can be a Christian and have secret handshakes, secret names.

You can have all the the trimmings that you ***ociate with the Mormon church and still be Christian....as long as you return to the only central idea behind the Christian faith,,,,the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person does not change who Jesus Christ is, If the person does not change the meaning of the Christian churches teachings about the death and resurrection of the true Jesus Christ of the bible....then there is room for many things that are at best debatable side-issues.

But change who Jesus Christ is?....Change the story of the resurrection?...and it dont matter what other what else a person has faith in....you are still not a Christian

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Arminian/Calvin debate...
Its such a waste of time...

Its like listening to people talk about the logical steps a young man takes as he falls madly in love with a girl.

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And this thread was going along just fine speaking about requirements to be a Christian until Sword felt the need to derail it. Maybe Sword should of started a new thread?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And this thread was going along just fine .....

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Now i have to go mow the gr*** for the next few hours....I hope when i return indoors and check this website I find many interesting posts and if Im lucky a few questions directed in my direction...

I would hate to see this topic cleared just because the same people had the same argument over the same issues that they have on all the other cleared topics....

(You would be surprised at how well the "Ignore" setting on this forum works to suppress people who break rules or are annoying)

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This forum section is about Mormons, and in that light I know that there are many issues that the Mormons teach that run counter to my own views.
But that does not mean anything...

You can be a Christian and have extra Canon.
You can be a Christian and have your own Apostles
You can be a Christian and have your own temple
You can be a Christian and have secret handshakes, secret names.

You can have all the the trimmings that you ***ociate with the Mormon church and still be Christian....as long as you return to the only central idea behind the Christian faith,,,,the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If a person does not change who Jesus Christ is, If the person does not change the meaning of the Christian churches teachings about the death and resurrection of the true Jesus Christ of the bible....then there is room for many things that are at best debatable side-issues.

But change who Jesus Christ is?....Change the story of the resurrection?...and it dont matter what other what else a person has faith in....you are still not a Christian

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Sometimes I look at the church and i see there standing in the doorway a Christian that is proclaiming the message of his church loudly...

But as I draw closer I notice something else....

I cant tell if the guy is holding the door to his church open for others,,,or is busy shutting the door?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Christians must align themselves with the teaching of Scriptures and not of men

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I couldn't agree with you more Erik.

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

You said you were regenerated first before conversion which includes faith. If regeneration precedes faith, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved.

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Sword this is a bogus argument that I could turn around on you. "Then this would make [regeneration] unnecessary since the person would already be saved".


Conversion (faith and repentance)---->Salvation----->Regeneration



(BTW you are not saved until AFTER conversion so you have my position wrong anyway)

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I also understand that it is only God that understands truly what His spirit has shared and how those who have it have or have not acted upon it.

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Do you believe that God unequally shares things with different people via his spirit? And isn't this unfair by LDS standards?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

It would be remiss if Christians let you go unchecked trying to teach others this false belief

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Then you would agree that it would be remiss for me to let you teach false doctrine. Agree?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

My point is that simply fails...

We can not define the term "Christian" by the manner we live like....
The only thing that we can use to define the term "Christian" is the faith of the person.
And of the things that a Christian has faith in, the most important (above all other things) is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

There are millions if not Billions of people alive on the earth that are acting in a manner traditionally characterized as "Christian"....yet they are not Christian at all and could be of any faith or have no faith at all.

take a moment and listen to the ideas of a person who we honor by being on this forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmIQkX7_no

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Alan, I want you to step back and try to step out of your paradigm just a little. Let's take one example of one thing--let's say honesty or dishonesty. Now, most religions of the world teach that it is important to be honest, right? I want you to think about it. Where did that truth come from? I say that it came from God and that there is no other source for goodness. So, let's say that a person grows up in some part of the world, in some place in the world, at some time of the world in which they never learned of the resurrection of Jesus Christ--but they did learn about honesty. Now, this person can either choose to be honest or they can choose to be dishonest. I say that if they choose honesty, they are showing faith in Jesus Christ even though they have never heard of His name. They are acting on something good. So, how do I view that Christ would view them? I believe He would view them as someone acting on faith in Him. Like the parable of the talents--God does not judge harshly the one who had only been given two talents but does well with it. The only person He judges harshly is the one who, when given a talent, did nothing with it.

Also, I have discussed the parable of the two Sons. This parable also teaches this principle. So, my point? To act like we can discern who is the "in" crowd with God and who is the "out" crowd with God is futile. Only He knows what "talents" He has given in the way of spiritual knowledge and gifts and only He can decide if the person has been a good steward with them or not. So, to me, this question is the same as "who is my neighbor?" It speaks to a false belief that we can determine who is "in" or "out" by what they state they believe. Rather, like the Good Samaritan, God judges based on knowledge given and what the receiver does with it. In other words, I can state I believe all I want in the resurrection of Christ, but if I (like the son who chose to do nothing) act without faith, as Christ says "even the harlots and the publicans will enter the kingdom of God" before me.

I agree that your definition is how the world defines Christianity--those who profess a belief in the living Christ. Yet, I believe that how we, as the world defines it, is not necessarily reality in theway God judges a "Christian."

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Now, most religions of the world teach that it is important to be honest, right? I want you to think about it. Where did that truth come from? I say that it came from God and that there is no other source for goodness.

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God gives everyone a basic standard or internal comp***, see Romans 2. People who have never had the opportunity will be judged based on the knowledge that they had. What will happen to them I don't know. These type of people today are the exception to the rule. But this does not make them Christian even you would agree with that because you believe that these people will still need to accept Christ in the afterlife. What about all of the people who are living today who have heard about Christ and who do not have faith in Christ, yet they do good works are they Christian?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And this thread was going along just fine speaking about requirements to be a Christian until Sword felt the need to derail it. Maybe Sword should of started a new thread?

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Regeneration occurs because of the Spirit of God and the word of God just as it was in God’s calling through the preaching of the Gospel. Regeneration is a rebirth, to be re-generated. It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved. (John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23, ***us 3:5) Did you notice that? You have to be saved before God can give you a new heart. That's what happens when we are born again. God works on changing our hearts.

Regeneration is possible because of the work of the Holy Spirit and occurs by the implanting of the word of God in the receptive heart (1 Peter 1:23,25)

A receptive heart. It does not say only the hearts of those people God had chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved. But ANY heart that is open to the gospel. Since the word of God is so important for regeneration, it is very important that there be constant exposure to the word of God. God's mercy is available to all men. Not all men will respond. Christ died for the world, NOT for some "elected" few.

The problem is you subscribe to the extreme Reformed faith which is Calvinism. The belief that God creates some people for heaven and creates the rest for hell without any hope whatsoever. Is that the kind of God you believe in? You say this is what election means and then you proceed to throw out some verses which you think support your claim, but this is not what election is.. This affects everything else such as regeneration and conversion. You say man has no free will whatsoever despite all the p***ages we have given you about God not wanting anyone to perish. For all to come to saving faith. We gave you the p***ages where it says one must have faith. One must believe. God does not regenerate any man who does not believe the gospel.

If scriptural teaching is what you call derailing your threads, then I am sorry you feel that way..

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved. (John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23, ***us 3:5) Did you notice that? You have to be saved before God can give you a new heart.

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Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration


So you can be saved without being regenerated or born again. Agree?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Regeneration is possible because of the work of the Holy Spirit and occurs by the implanting of the word of God in the receptive heart

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Wait a minute. You said regeneration takes place AFTER a person is saved not before. This seems to be a contradiction on your part.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

It does not say only the hearts of those people God had chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved.

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John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = awakens the person spiritually

When is a person saved?

So which comes first conversion or regeneration? You said above conversion is after regeneration. But that is what I believe so you could not possibly believe that.

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You said you were regenerated first, before you repented. Spiritual rebirth is the same as being born again and regenerated. We must have faith, believe and repent in order to be saved. Now if you believe you were regenerated before you had this faith and repented of your sins, then you weren't yet saved which means you were still dead in your sins. Still an unregenerate man. Regeneration does not happen before a person is saved. That person must first respond to the gospel, to the preaching of God's word. When we are saved, then God begins to work on our hearts.

What is the need for faith if you believe one is saved at the moment God regenerates a person prior to repenting?

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter how one defines regeneration. But what does matter is that we must understand that man must choose to accept Christ God does not regenerate a person who's heart and mind is closed.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

The belief that God creates some people for heaven and creates the rest for hell without any hope whatsoever

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Erik do you believe that God knew exactly what you would do in life and where you will end up before he created the world?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Wait a minute. You said regeneration takes place AFTER a person is saved not before. This seems to be a contradiction on your part.

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No Billy I did not say that..Regeneration is the same thing as being born again.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Conversion (repentance and faith)----->Salvation----->Regeneration


So you can be saved without being regenerated or born again. Agree?

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No. Regeneration is spiritual rebirth.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

You said you were regenerated first, before you repented.

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Yes

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Spiritual rebirth is the same as being born again and regenerated.

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Yes

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

We must have faith, believe and repent in order to be saved.

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Yes

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Now if you believe you were regenerated before you had this faith and repented of your sins, then you weren't yet saved. . .

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Correct. Salvation occurs after conversion.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Regeneration does not happen before a person is saved.

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According to you.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

What is the need for faith if you believe one is saved at the moment God regenerates a person prior to repenting?

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I don't believe that one is saved until conversion.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter how one defines regeneration.

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Then why this long post?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

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There you go again, trying to control the dialogue. You ignore every verse I give you, throw other verses at me and tell me to explain those verses and then you will take it from there. Sorry Billy, but if you aren't interested in the scriptures I share with you then its a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

No. Regeneration is spiritual rebirth.

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Erik you didn't answer my question.

So you can be saved without being regenerated? Agree?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

There you go again, trying to control the dialogue.

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You told me that I am wrong. Give me a chance to show you why I believe the way I do.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Sorry Billy, but if you aren't interested in the scriptures I share with you then its a waste of time.

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You say that I am not interested in scripture when I just gave you a scripture to look at and refuse to explain it? Is that fair Erik?