God as Spirit or flesh and bone

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then by a like standard--if one has a body of flesh and bone--then all have the same?

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No remember......only the Son is human.

So the substance of the Lord is spirit.
and the substance of humans is flesh.

So because Jesus is BOTH
God and Man, he has both a divine nature of pure spirit.
and-
a human nature of flesh.


The Father has the same substance as the son, but the father does not have a human nature.....

The HS has the same substance as the Son, but the HS does not have a human nature.

So all three members of the Trinity share in common the same divine substance...but only the Son has a human substance too.



ask more questions!

John 1:1....

"the Word was with God, the Word was God.
The Word became flesh...."


but the Word never stopped being God.

So the Word (Jesus) is God.....always was, always will be.

But the Word became man.

The Word never stopped being God, but the Word now has 2 natures

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the word "substance" depends a lot on how you mean the word?...how you have set up the fuller contex?

So when talking about the nature of "God" we would say that his substance is Pure spirit.

Or pure love.
or pure truth.

But mostly in this context I would say that the substance of God is spirit.

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The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:


Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.



So--do you relate that substance to Christ only--or both the Father and the Son?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:

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Ok, just a quick note on that...

The phrase "Flesh and Blood" means "mortal"

the phrase "Flesh and Bone" mean immortal.

Jesus was born with a mortal body of flesh and blood.

Jesus died...his mortal body died.

Then Jesus was resurrected in an immortal body of "Flesh and Bone"



so the two phrases mean two totally different things.

They are describing the nature of the human body Jesus had and has now.

the nature of his human body changed in the resurrection.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--do you relate that substance to Christ only--or both the Father and the Son?

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The humanity of Jesus is not shared by other members of the trinity.

The father did not become man
The Holy Spirit did not become man.
Only the Son became man as we read in John1:1


But the deity of Christ is shared by the other members of the trinity.

So the Substance of the Father is like the substance of the Son and the HS ,. in that all are pure spirit.

ask more, this is fun!;)

well..no more questions?

Lets see if we might review what the Bible teaches then to make sure we are all up to speed.


The "substance" of God is spirit.
Now there are other way to define the term "substance', but for now Im going to define it as "pure Spirit"

This means that when i say that "Jesus is God" I am talking about the divine nature of Jesus. But at the same time I have to keep in mind that Jesus has 2 different natures for he is both God (pure spirit as is the father) and human (flesh like me)


So this is why Christians teach that Jesus was of the "same substance" with the Father.
For in his divine nature Jesus is God as much and in the same way that the Father is God and the HS.

So the father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the "same substance"

and I define that substance as "pure spirit"



So that is the first nature of Jesus, but there is also the other nature.
The human nature of Christ.
This is not shared by the father nor the Holy Spirit.

This is taught in John 1, "The word became4 flesh"

The Father did not become flesh
The Holy Spirit did not become flesh, but the Word (Jesus) did become flesh.

Jesus was born flesh and blood.
Lived as a man.
Died as a man
resurrected as a man .

right now jesus has an everlasting body of flesh and bone.
The same body that died, but it has a new nature.

[quote]dberrie----The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:
Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


So--do you relate that substance to Christ only--or both the Father and the Son?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The humanity of Jesus is not shared by other members of the trinity.

The father did not become man
The Holy Spirit did not become man.
Only the Son became man as we read in John1:1


But the deity of Christ is shared by the other members of the trinity.

So the Substance of the Father is like the substance of the Son and the HS ,. in that all are pure spirit.

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But not like the flesh and bone of the Son. If they are the "****ousious" God--and there is only one God--how can that God have different substances?
"****ousious" means "same substance".

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;140313]

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dberrie----The Biblical record bears witness that it is also flesh and bone:

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...yes, AFTER THE RESURRECTION!


The phrase "Flesh and Blood" means mortal life.

The different phrase "Flesh and Bone" means eternal life.


Do you see that?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

-how can that God have different substances?
"****ousious" means "same substance".

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They have the SAME substance!

same!, same!, same!

I have never said that in their deity they were different...

Go look what I have written...
(Written over and over on this I might add)

The Father and the Son are of the SAME substance....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
The humanity of Jesus is not shared by other members of the trinity.

The father did not become man
The Holy Spirit did not become man.
Only the Son became man as we read in John1:1


But the deity of Christ is shared by the other members of the trinity.

So the Substance of the Father is like the substance of the Son and the HS ,. in that all are pure spirit.

---

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dberrie---But not like the flesh and bone of the Son. If they are the "****ousious" God--and there is only one God--how can that God have different substances?
"****ousious" means "same substance".

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They have the SAME substance!

same!, same!, same!

I have never said that in their deity they were different...

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But Jesus Christ in His deity is flesh and bone--is the Father of the same substance in His deity?

If not--how are they the same substance?

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Go look what I have written...
(Written over and over on this I might add)

The Father and the Son are of the SAME substance....

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You have the Father as Spirit--and the Son as Spirit and flesh and bone--how is that the same substance?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Jesus Christ in His deity is flesh and bone--

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No, in his divine nature he is only pure spirit.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You have the Father as Spirit--and the Son as Spirit and flesh and bone--how is that the same substance?

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The answer is that Jesus has two totally different natures.

At one with the same substance with the father. (spirit)
At one with men with the same substance as men (flesh)

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The answer is that Jesus has two totally different natures.

At one with the same substance with the father. (spirit)
At one with men with the same substance as men (flesh)

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Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

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The Father is spirit. The Son has a resurrected body.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Jesus Christ in His deity is flesh and bone--

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No he is not!

Jesus is flesh and bone in his humanity.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

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No , they are of the same substance in their nature a God.

But Jesus as a 2nd nature two that the Father does not have.


So Jesus has the very same substance as the father in his deity,
Yet in his humanity Jesus is what the father is not..."human"

So to review.

The Bible tells us that God is spirit.
That means in his nature as God that jesus is also pure spirit.

This comes out to us in the teachings at John 1.

But 2000 years ago the Word became flesh.
the father did not become flesh
the Holy Spirit did not become flesh.
And whats more, the Bible says that jesus never stopped being God (pure spirit) to become flesh.


So Jesus is still pure spirit as God.

But because Jesus is also man he has a body, whereas the father and the HS do not have bodies of flesh

thus Jesus has two totaly different natures.
One is the nature of God with the father being of the same substance as the father (Spirit)

and the other nature is human, and so Jesus now has a body of flesh.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Which means that the substance of the Son does not match the substance of the Father--Jesus possesses something the Father does not, in substance--right?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No , they are of the same substance in their nature a God.

But Jesus as a 2nd nature two that the Father does not have.

So Jesus has the very same substance as the father in his deity,

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But the scriptures state that Christ possessed flesh and bone in His deity:


Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You do agree that God the Father does not possess this attribute--right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But the scriptures state that Christ possessed flesh and bone in His deity:


Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You do agree that God the Father does not possess this attribute--right?

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No...the Bible tells us at John 1 that the Word was with God, the Word was God...
So at that point of the story the Word did not have a human nature nor body.

then later in John the Bible tells us that the "Word became flesh" and was made man....NOW here at this point the Word was given a 2nd nature.

at that point in our history the word became flesh.


So to review.
The Word was, is now, and will always be, "spirit" as we see in the first part of John1.

But the Word became flesh.
So the word that is always spirit, was made man who is flesh.

Thus the flesh is only dealing with the "HUMAN NATURE" of Jesus.

but in his divine nature Jesus is always pure spirit as is the father pure spirit.



Remember Jesus has 2 natures
one like the father is all ways
the other like man in all ways


So when Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bone, he was pointing out his "HUMANITY"!!!!!



this means that because the father does not have a Human nature, that the father does not have a body of flesh and bone.


This is the 2nd nature that Christ has that the father does not have.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---But the scriptures state that Christ possessed flesh and bone in His deity:

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You do agree that God the Father does not possess this attribute--right?

---

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No...the Bible tells us at John 1 that the Word was with God, the Word was God...
So at that point of the story the Word did not have a human nature nor body

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But He does now--and He does in His deity. Are you attempting to make the point Christ was only deity before His resurrection or mortal existence?

Alan--Christ was resurrected deity when He showed Himself to His disciples as a resurrected man of flesh and bone.

The Trinitarians claim is that God the Father does not share this substance with His Son--right?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But He does now--and He does in His deity. Are you attempting to make the point Christ was only deity before His resurrection or mortal existence?

Alan--Christ was resurrected deity when He showed Himself to His disciples as a resurrected man of flesh and bone.

The Trinitarians claim is that God the Father does not share this substance with His Son--right?

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Why would you think that? The Eternal Father shares all the experiences of Jesus? Or that Jesus doesn't share all with the Father After all they are the one true and living God.. It is your false impressions of God's nature that makes you separate them.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Why would you think that? The Eternal Father shares all the experiences of Jesus? Or that Jesus doesn't share all with the Father After all they are the one true and living God.. It is your false impressions of God's nature that makes you separate them.. IHS jim

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Are you stating that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones also?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you stating that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones also?

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Only in and through Jesus and Jesus remains 100% Spirit through the Father.. They are one God not two separate and distinct Gods.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you stating that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones also?

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No, The Father does not have a human nature.

The Father's substance of his deity is the same as the Son.

But only the Son is 100% human.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But He does now--and He does in His deity. Are you attempting to make the point Christ was only deity before His resurrection or mortal existence?

......

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I dont think you understand the Trinity.

let me explain it here.

Jesus is the Lord God Almighty.
Jesus is always pure spirit.
Jesus became flesh, yet always remained pure spirit.

Jesus is pure spirit wrapped in flesh.

Thus the father and the Son are one in substance.
But the Son also has a 2nd nature that is human too!

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--Christ was resurrected deity ....

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No,
Rather the humanity of Jesus died, but the Deity of Jesus can never die.

Thus the resurrection of Christ is not of his deity but is of his humanity.


Remember Jesus has to natures, he is both God and man.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Trinitarians claim is that God the Father does not share this substance with His Son--right?

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well there is a historical debate within the church at the terms used...

At some churches they use the phrase, "Being of LIKE substance..."

Other churches use the phrase "Being of the same substance as the father"


However when you dig into what they claim as the big difference you find yourself splitting hairs.

I just say "same" and leave it at that.

ask more....I enjoy answering questions on this stuff....

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dberrie---Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Are you stating that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones also?

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Only in and through Jesus

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So--you believe God the Father does indeed possess flesh and bone?

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and Jesus remains 100% Spirit through the Father..

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Are you saying that "Jesus remains 100% Spirit through the Father.. " means that He is not also flesh and bone also? Or that Jesus and the Father are both?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well there is a historical debate within the church at the terms used...

At some churches they use the phrase, "Being of LIKE substance..."

Other churches use the phrase "Being of the same substance as the father"

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What substance do you believe the Father possesses that is like this substance:

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

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However when you dig into what they claim as the big difference you find yourself splitting hairs.

I just say "same" and leave it at that.

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Not at all--if you believe that their substance is the same--then how do you explain the faith alone belief that God the Son possesses a body of flesh and bone--and the Father does not?

So--does God possess a body of flesh and bone--or Jesus only?

You see the problem you face? It questions the validity of the faith alone's theology of the Trinity itself.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What substance do you believe the Father possesses that is like this substance:

.....

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Spirit....the substance is spirit

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

l--if you believe that their substance is the same--then how do you explain the faith alone belief that God the Son possesses a body of flesh and bone--and the Father does not?

.

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The Word became flesh....

The Father did not become flesh, but the Word did.

So the Son and the Father have the same substance in their deity, (Spirit) but the Son has a 2nd nature that is human. (Flesh)

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--does God possess a body of flesh and bone--or Jesus only?

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The Bible says that Only the Word became flesh.

So that means that Jesus is fully human, but not the father nor the HS.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

.

You see the problem you face? It questions the validity of the faith alone's theology of the Trinity itself.

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There is no problem here at all.

Jesus is human, so he has a human body.
The father is not human, so he does not have a body...


But in their nature as God both the Father and the Son are of the same substance, for their substance as God is Spirit.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

There is no problem here at all.

Jesus is human, so he has a human body.
The father is not human, so he does not have a body...

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If that is true--then you have the Father and the Son with differing substances--period.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If that is true--then you have the Father and the Son with differing substances--period.

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That would be true if Jesus were only human but as He is 100% human He is also 100% God.. There is One God not three. No God, even if you believe that Isaiah 43:10 means "only for this world", was ever formed before the God speaking on this p***age, and there will never be one formed in the future.. One God, the Father is called God, Jesus is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God. Unless two of them are liars then these three Persons are the one true God.. That is a part of scripture that LDS Doctrine can't deal with in their doctrine of God's nature.. Because it differs so completely with what the Bible teaches even to the point of it's founder teaching that there are three Gods and no one could contradict it. That teachings makes mormonism a pagan religion with no connection to God's truth, No connection to the Jesus who said that He is the YHWH.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
There is no problem here at all.

Jesus is human, so he has a human body.
The father is not human, so he does not have a body...

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
If that is true--then you have the Father and the Son with differing substances--period.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

That would be true if Jesus were only human but as He is 100% human He is also 100% God.. There is One God not three.

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Then that would only raise the question--is God 100% human--or not? Does God have a body of flesh and bone?

You do understand--you can only separate that substance at the individual level--God the Father verses God the Son, as to the flesh and bone question. You can have them as two different substances. But there is only one God in the Trinitarian belief--does that one God have a body of flesh and bone?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If that is true--then you have the Father and the Son with differing substances--period.

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No, they are of the same substance in their deity.

But the Son has a 2nd nature, the Son is human where the father is not.