No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

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Originally Posted by James Banta

You don't see that.. It says it right there on Mark 1:4 "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". Tell me why it can't be that we are baptized because our sins have been remitted.. If the Blood of Jesus is required to have sin remitted:

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Not the waters of baptism, the blood of Jesus is the agent that cleanses us.. Baptism isn't a way to have sin forgiven it is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but it is the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21). A symbol of coming for to a newness of life. From our lives of sin into the perfection of God's righteousness, His work of creation in our heart.

If you were blind you would see what I am saying but you are so I know it's hard for you.. IHS jim

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The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21
Water had nothing to do with our Salvation, it was and still all about our relationship with Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible!

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Originally Posted by James Banta

You don't see that.. It says it right there on Mark 1:4 "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". Tell me why it can't be that we are baptized because our sins have been remitted..

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---Because the word "for" in that verse was not intended to mean "because there has been." That's why.

Interpret what "for" means in THIS sentence:

"I paid $5 FOR this lousy Ed Decker book." The sentence is saying:

a) "I paid $5 because I got this lousy Ed Decker book."

b) " I paid $5 IN ORDER TO GET this lousy Ed Decker book."

Which is the most normal, logical, reasonable, common sense interpretation, Jim? And which would amount to eisegesis, twisting the words so they mean what you want them to mean?

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Because the word "for" in that verse was not intended to mean "because there has been." That's why.

Interpret what "for" means in THIS sentence:

"I paid $5 FOR this lousy Ed Decker book." The sentence is saying:

a) "I paid $5 because I got this lousy Ed Decker book."

b) " I paid $5 IN ORDER TO GET this lousy Ed Decker book."

Which is the most normal, logical, reasonable, common sense interpretation, Jim? And which would amount to eisegesis, twisting the words so they mean what you want them to mean?

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Interpret this, jeff: I took an aspirin for my headache. ;)

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

Interpret this, jeff: I took an aspirin for my headache. ;)

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You certainly did not take the pill because you headache was already gone!

Marvin

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21
Water had nothing to do with our Salvation, it was and still all about our relationship with Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible!

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I agree with you and I think that is what I said.. I see a man with a firm grasp on the word of God in you.. A man who only teaches the truth as revealed in God's word and taught to you by the Holy Spirit.. God Bless you and work wonders through your witness.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

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b) 1 Peter 3:21. . .baptism doth also now save us

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Jeff, Does baptism doth also now save (you) by itself?

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Because the word "for" in that verse was not intended to mean "because there has been." That's why.

Interpret what "for" means in THIS sentence:

"I paid $5 FOR this lousy Ed Decker book." The sentence is saying:

a) "I paid $5 because I got this lousy Ed Decker book."

b) " I paid $5 IN ORDER TO GET this lousy Ed Decker book."

Which is the most normal, logical, reasonable, common sense interpretation, Jim? And which would amount to eisegesis, twisting the words so they mean what you want them to mean?

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Johnny got a new bike FOR his birthday.. Didn't Johnny get he bike because of his birthday not in order to get a birthday.. Sounds like you are trying to prove that the water of baptism is capable of what the Bible says only the blood of Jesus has power to do; cleanses us of sin.. Really this should be a no brainier for even mormons.. It is the blood that cleanses man of Sin not water! If water could do it Jesus died in vain. Lets look at the Bible and see what it teaches on the subject..

Exod 30:10
And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

Lev 5:9
And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.

Lam 4:13
For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her

Matt 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

1John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Even though the Bible is this adamant about the blood of Jesus being the cleansing agent you still want to believe that we are baptized to have our sins washed away in water. That it is baptism that bring forgiveness. UNBELIEVABLE!!! IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Sounds like you are trying to prove that the water of baptism is capable of what the Bible says only the blood of Jesus has power to do; cleanses us of sin.

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Agree with you Jim, LDS think that the water somehow magically washes away their sins that somehow can't be washed by the blood of Christ. Not to mention all of the verses that state that we are saved by faith and not by works.

***us 3
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Agree with you Jim,LDS think that the water somehow magically washes away their sins that somehow can't be washed by the blood of Christ. Not to mention all of the verses that state that we are saved by faith and not by works.

***us 3

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,but according to his mercy he saved us,by the washing of regeneration,and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

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3. …he saved us,not because of any works of righteousness that we had done,but according to his mercy,through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. [***us 3:5;NRSV]

3. Jesus answered him,‘Very truly,I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.’ 4. Nicodemus said to him,‘How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?’ 5. Jesus answered,‘Very truly,I tell you,no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. [John 3:3-5;NRSV]

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

3. …he saved us,not because of any works of righteousness that we had done,but according to his mercy,through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (***us 3:5;NRSV)

3. Jesus answered him,‘Very truly,I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.’ 4. Nicodemus said to him,‘How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?’ 5. Jesus answered,‘Very truly,I tell you,no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. [John 3:3-5;NRSV]

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And what does a p***age about the second BIRTH have to do with water baptism? It is more like water baptism has to do with the second birth. Showing a testimony of the cleansing God had already preformed on their heart..

In all the p***ages of the Bible the word baptism is always used in reference to the ordinance.. Here in the first context of John 3 the word is not used once, while the word Born/Birth is used Seven Times.. This p***age in therefore about the second Birth, the Spiritual Birth and not mere water baptism.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

(John 3:3)
Jesus answered him,‘Very truly,I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.

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What is born from above? This is certainly not water baptism.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

5.Jesus answered,‘Very truly,I tell you,no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit

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Why do you think that is speaking about water baptism? Is there any indication anywhere within the context of this p***age that would indication baptism?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

he saved us,not because of any works of righteousness that we had done,but according to his mercy,through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. (***us 3:5;NRSV)

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***us 3:5
5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, NIV

5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, ESV

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; KJV

5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, ASV

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit NASB

Jesus told Nicodemus that "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." [John 3:3-5;NRSV] The apostle Paul taught that we are saved "according to his mercy,through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." [***us 3:5;NRSV]

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Jesus told Nicodemus that "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." [John 3:3-5;NRSV] The apostle Paul taught that we are saved "according to his mercy,through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." [***us 3:5;NRSV]

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Since only two birth's are mentioned the born of water of the first birth, the natural birth, it must be the waters related to natural birth.. I guess you have never heard the expresion "My water broke"... IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

What's the water of rebirth?

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The answer was in ALL the other versions that I posted for you.

by the washing of regeneration and renewal OF the Holy Spirit[/B], ESV

Regeneration is a work of God, not by some ritual that we do.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 ESV
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 j And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The actual word baptism is never mentioned in these p***ages of scripture. It's inferred by the text and this interpretation is in accordance with both the understanding of this p***age and theology of the early Church Fathers. More importantly it is also in agreement with scripture.

Jesus did say to Nicodemus that "Very truly,I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above." This particular p***age does not refer to the ordinance of baptism by immersion in water. It teaches us who is the source of our spiritual rebirth or regeneration. The method that God chooses to use is our "being born of water and Spirit." [John 3:3-5;NRSV] The apostle Paul also taught that we are born from above "through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." [***us 3:5;NRSV]

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Johnny got a new bike FOR his birthday..

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Wrong. "For his birthday" is a different usage of "for" than
"Be baptized for the remission of sins." I think if you could read it in Greek, you'd understand that the meaning you are pouring into the scripture is wrong.

Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What did Peter mean? What was he talking about?

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Sounds like you are trying to prove that the water of baptism is capable of what the Bible says only the blood of Jesus has power to do; cleanses us of sin..

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---The WHOLE REASON why baptism can be efficacious in the process of remitting sins, is BECAUSE of Jesus' atonement. This is such a no-brainer that even an extremist AOL should be able to see that. I think.

Stating that "Regeneration is a work of God,not by some ritual that we do" does not answer my question. The Greek word Palingenesia--palin (again),genesis (beginning,birth) means literally the New Birth. The apostle Paul mentions both the "water of rebirth" or the "washing of regeneration" along with the "renewal by the Holy Spirit" as part of the process of how being"justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". This time instead of avoiding answering my specific question or dismissing it why don't you give me a direct answer?

The "washing of regeneration" does NOT MEAN WATER BAPTISM. Read for once in your life...CONTEXTUALLY!!

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

You certainly did not take the pill because you headache was already gone!

Marvin

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You missed the point, Marvin. :rolleyes:

The ordinance of baptism is part of the doctrine that Paul himself preached. [Hebrews 6:2] Paul was immersed in order to have his sins “washed away” [Acts 22:16] and taught that in order to have "redemption through his blood,the forgiveness of sins,in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding" we are to be baptized "into Christ”. [Ephesians 1:3;Romans 6:3-4;Galatians 3:27] Jesus spoke of being "born of water" and Paul clarifies exactly which birth is being referred to here by saying this is "the water of rebirth" [John 3:3-5,NRSV;***us 3:5,NRSV]

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Jesus did say to Nicodemus that "Very truly,I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above." This particular p***age does not refer to the ordinance of baptism by immersion in water. It teaches us who is the source of our spiritual rebirth or regeneration.

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Hey you are starting to get it.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

The method that God chooses to use is our "being born of water and Spirit." The apostle Paul also taught that we are born from above "through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

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Oh, I guess I spoke to fast.

You were starting to get it, then you made up the second part to fit your theology. Where do you read in this p***age the "method that God chooses" is by water baptism?

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

You missed the point, Marvin. :rolleyes:

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Sez you!

Marvin

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

The ordinance of baptism is part of the doctrine that Paul himself preached. [Hebrews 6:2] Paul was immersed in order to have his sins “washed away” [Acts 22:16] and taught that in order to have "redemption through his blood,the forgiveness of sins,in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding" we are to be baptized "into Christ”. [Ephesians 1:3;Romans 6:3-4;Galatians 3:27] Jesus spoke of being "born of water" and Paul clarifies exactly which birth is being referred to here by saying this is "the water of rebirth" [John 3:3-5,NRSV;***us 3:5,NRSV]

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One Lord, one faith, one baptism, EPH. 4:5. (1)

Then remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. ACTS 11:16. water baptism, Holy Ghost Baptism, does this mean there are 2 baptism?

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. What now we have a third baptism, right?

And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 1 Cor. 1:16. What, doesn't look like Paul was to concern who he had baptized. I wonder why?

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13, Wait, I think we are getting some where here. We now have 1 body, put that with 1 baptism and where headed in the right place.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. GAL 3:26-28.

So how did we get from John's baptism to children of God by faith in Christ Jesus?
It wasn't overnight, it took time, but Paul and Peter both got it. It isn't about water, laying on of hands, or a Church name above a building that make a person a child of God, it is by Faith in Christ Jesus of the Holy Bible. We know this by drinking in the spiritual waters of the Holy Ghost.
Remember when Jesus said, I give you living water? Drink of this cup and you will have Eternal life, amen!

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Sez you!

Marvin

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Yep. Sez me. :D

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

The ordinance of baptism is part of the doctrine that Paul himself preached. [Hebrews 6:2] Paul was immersed in order to have his sins “washed away” [Acts 22:16] and taught that in order to have "redemption through his blood,the forgiveness of sins,in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding" we are to be baptized "into Christ”. [Ephesians 1:3;Romans 6:3-4;Galatians 3:27] Jesus spoke of being "born of water" and Paul clarifies exactly which birth is being referred to here by saying this is "the water of rebirth" [John 3:3-5,NRSV;***us 3:5,NRSV]

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Our sins are washed away by the blood of the Lamb....Amen

Revelation 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:14

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And yes being born of water and Spirit does mean amniotic fluid and Holy Spirit Baptism.

Nicodemus was already destined for heaven as long as he kept the Law because he was a Jew, but Jesus said that now it takes more in that Nicodemus also had to be born again and the sixth verse bears this out.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Right there Jesus is talking about natural birth and Spiritual Birth and it has nothing to do with water baptism....PERIOD!!

And you have to understand that only a few times where baptism is mentioned does it refer to water baptism. Most of the time it is referring to Holy Spirit Baptism.

Andy