God as Spirit or flesh and bone

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
If that is true--then you have the Father and the Son with differing substances--period.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No, they are of the same substance in their deity.

But the Son has a 2nd nature, the Son is human where the father is not.

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So--are you saying that the Son's flesh and bone is not part of His deity? If the Father is different in that He does not possess this second nature--flesh and bone--are you saying that the Son has a substance the Father does not have?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--are you saying that the Son's flesh and bone is not part of His deity?

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At Last!you have landed on the core truth of the Christian church!

The Word became flesh.
The Son of God is 100% human and 100% God.

Of the same substance with the Father in his deity

Of the same substance as man in his......."HUMANITY!"


So the human body of Christ is from his Humanity, not his deity.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

..... If the Father is different in that He does not possess this second nature--flesh and bone--are you saying that the Son has a substance the Father does not have?

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YES!

As we learn in John1:1
The Word BECAME flesh.

The Father did not become flesh
The HS did not become flesh.
Only the Word became flesh.


So the Son is of the same substance as the father in his Deity, but also has a 2nd nature that the Father does not have.


So the Son is of the same substance as the Father!
And, the Son is also totally human, so he has a normal human body....although right now it is a resurrected body, yet it is still human.


The Father did not become flesh in John 1:1, and so that is why the father does not have a body of flesh.



So this is why Jesus said "A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see i have"
The Father is spirit, therefore the father does not have a body of flesh and bone.

What Jesus was pointing out is his "HUMANITY!"
It is the humanity of Jesus that has a body of flesh, not his Deity.

Jesus is always God Almighty, so Jesus is always pure Spirit, but Jesus became flesh and so he also has a human body.

He is always still spirit, but he pointed out that a spirit does not have flesh and bone, so he was pointing to his Humanity, not his deity.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

At Last!

The Word became flesh.
The Son of God is 100% human and 100% God.

Of the same substance with the Father in his deity

Of the same substance as man in his......."HUMANITY!"


So the human body of Christ is from his Humanity, not his deity.

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What is it about Christ's flesh and bone do you not consider as part of His deity?



Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

If Christ still possesses this flesh and bone--then it is an eternal part of His makeup. If God the Father does not possess flesh and bone, then God the Son is not ****ousious with the Father.

Again--is God a Spirit--or flesh and bone--or both?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is it about Christ's flesh and bone do you not consider as part of His deity?

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All of it!...

The humanity of Jesus is of the flesh.
The deity of Jesus is of the spirit.

When Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh he was teaching what Im saying.

The deity of Jesus is spirit, the humanity of Jesus is flesh.

Jesus has the same substance as the father in his deity,. and the same human nature as men.

So Jesus is both God and man.
This is what John 1;1 is teaching what it says that the "Word became flesh"

At no place in the whole bible does it say the father became flesh, nor the HS>

But at John 1 it is very clear in teaching that only the Word became flesh.

So Jesus has the same substance as the Father in his deity.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--is God a Spirit--or flesh and bone--or both?

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again, in his deity Jesus is spirit.
But in his humanity Jesus is flesh.....understand?

So to review...

In his deity Jesus is what?........

In his deity Jesus is what?.......

The answer is that Jesus is Spirit and of the same substance with the Father.


And in the humanity Jesus is what?.......
What is Jesus in his humanity?.......

The answer is that Jesus is flesh.

and that is what Jesus is talking about with the words "A spirit does not have..."

Jesus was referring to his humanity.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and that is what Jesus is talking about with the words "A spirit does not have..."

Jesus was referring to his humanity.

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So He is saying that a Spirit has no humanity? I think you are fishing for a meaning beyond what Jesus is saying.. He said that a Spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone.. Lets not do the twist with the Scripture.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

So He is saying that a Spirit has no humanity? I think you are fishing for a meaning beyond what Jesus is saying.. He said that a Spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone.. Lets not do the twist with the Scripture.. IHS jim

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Jesus was not referring to the divine nature...he was refering to his humanity.

Its like this, Jesus was the "Word" in John 1 and was pure spirit.
The word becomes flesh, but never stops being pure spirit.
This is why Jesus is said to be "The image of the invisible God", for Jesus is both God and man, both pure spirit and human flesh.
Jesus being God in his nature has the same substance as the Father and the Holy Spirit, and that substance is pure spirit.

But in his 2nd nature as being 100% human his substance is flesh.

jesus died.
Jesus died the same type of death that all men suffer, the same death that Adam died and p***ed on to all men.
Jesus overcame this death, and so we now have Jesus in s resurrected body of flesh, human flesh....but everlasting flesh.


So when Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have , he is referring to his humanity.

This is then our only example of what our own resurrections will be like.

So when Jesus was pointing out his human body, he was drawing attention to his humanity.....the idea was that we can see Jesus human body, see it is now resurrected, and then have faith that our own human bodies of flesh will likewise come out of the grave one day.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and that is what Jesus is talking about with the words "A spirit does not have..."

Jesus was referring to his humanity.

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bump for review

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again, in his deity Jesus is spirit.

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Was Jesus Christ Deity in this instance? :


Luke 24:39--King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Was Jesus Christ Deity in this instance? :


Luke 24:39--King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

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Ah, remember Jesus has 2 natures, divine and?______and?_______

and 'human"!


So when the men saw him standing there after they knew he had truly died all they first thought was that it "Had to be his ghost", so Jesus told them to grab a hold of him and feel, for you cant feel a ghost....ghosts have no flesh.

But humans have flesh.....and Jesus was 100% human just as we are 100% human.


This allows us a guide to what our own resurrection will be like.
because we are just as human as Jesus is human, therefore just as Jesus was raised we then can have faith that God can also raise our own mortal human bodies from the grave.

So just because Jesus has 1st nature of being human with a body of flesh it does not mean for one second that he was not also fully God (John 20:28 )and with a 2nd nature of being divine/spirit, ( Luke 23:46).....

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Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I wonder why you don't answer "God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones, God the Son has a resurrected body."

Could it be because it complicates your explanation?

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Im not sure I understood your question....But I can share what i have learned over the years...


the father has no body,,,the Father is pure spirit.

The Word of John 1:1 has no body, but in the story if the incarnation, the Bible tells us that the Word is wrapped in the flesh of a human and born of a woman.

So this does not mean that the WORD gave up being pure spirit, but rather the story tells us that the Word was given a 2nd nature.....and was made man.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Postagain, in his deity Jesus is spirit.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWas Jesus Christ Deity in this instance? :


Luke 24:39--King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Ah, remember Jesus has 2 natures, divine and?______and?_______

and 'human"!

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Are you stating that Jesus was not divine in His resurrected form? Where do we find your explanation in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you stating that Jesus was not divine in His resurrected form?

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Jesus has 2 natures....

fully God ("My Lord and my God")

fully man ( "the man Christ Jesus")

Both natures in the one person.
Fully God, fully man....


He died a fully human death, (just like us)
He was raised in an everlasting body of flesh and bone (just like we will be too)

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Where do we find your explanation in the Bible?

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The human nature of Christ is talked about at 1 Timothy 2:5

The Divine nature of Christ is talked about John 20:28

have we dealt with this topic enough then?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you stating that Jesus was not divine in His resurrected form?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus has 2 natures....

fully God ("My Lord and my God")

fully man ( "the man Christ Jesus")

Both natures in the one person.
Fully God, fully man....


He died a fully human death, (just like us)
He was raised in an everlasting body of flesh and bone (just like we will be too)

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Does not touch my question. Was Jesus Christ, in His resurrected form--Divine?

Jesus is the God/man.....always Divine, always human...

never a moment in the story of Jesus when he was not fully God and fully man...

This is the point of the incarnation, where God wrapped himself in human flesh and died as a man....so that we might have faith that one day we too will be raised just as Jesus was raised!

Thus, my answer is correct as posted -
"Jesus has 2 natures....

fully God ("My Lord and my God")

fully man ( "the man Christ Jesus")

Both natures in the one person.
Fully God, fully man....


He died a fully human death, (just like us)
He was raised in an everlasting body of flesh and bone (just like we will be too)"

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you stating that Jesus was not divine in His resurrected form?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus is the God/man.....always Divine, always human...

never a moment in the story of Jesus when he was not fully God and fully man...

This is the point of the incarnation, where God wrapped himself in human flesh and died as a man....so that we might have faith that one day we too will be raised just as Jesus was raised!

Thus, my answer is correct as posted -
"Jesus has 2 natures....

fully God ("My Lord and my God")

fully man ( "the man Christ Jesus")

Both natures in the one person.
Fully God, fully man....


He died a fully human death, (just like us)
He was raised in an everlasting body of flesh and bone (just like we will be too)"

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If Jesus was Divine always--then He was Divine both as flesh and bones--and spirit.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post----again, in his deity Jesus is spirit.

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And as flesh and bones:


Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If Jesus was Divine always--

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Jesus was always divine, but was then given a 2nd nature that is human.

He was no different than we are....

We know this because if he was different, if he was not truly "human" then the fact that god was able to raise his "non-human" body from the grave would be moot....

The resurrection of Christ would be moot as far as learning about our own resurrections...

So what the resurrection body of Jesus is for us is a guide.....

it's how we can know and have faith that God who raised Jesus from the dead will also be able to raise us too...

This is why Jesus wanted his men to handle him and have faith, for he wants us to understand that our bodies will come back to life one day, just as his did....

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you stating that Jesus was not divine in His resurrected form?

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Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---Jesus is the God/man.....always Divine, always human...

never a moment in the story of Jesus when he was not fully God and fully man...

This is the point of the incarnation, where God wrapped himself in human flesh and died as a man....so that we might have faith that one day we too will be raised just as Jesus was raised!

Thus, my answer is correct as posted -
"Jesus has 2 natures....

fully God ("My Lord and my God")

fully man ( "the man Christ Jesus")

Both natures in the one person.
Fully God, fully man....


He died a fully human death, (just like us)
He was raised in an everlasting body of flesh and bone (just like we will be too)"

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dberrie----If Jesus was Divine always--then He was Divine both as flesh and bones--and spirit.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus was always divine, but was then given a 2nd nature that is human.

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Again--if Jesus was always Divine--then He was Divine in any form or nature.

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He was no different than we are....

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Yes He was. He was the Only Begotten--He had a heavenly Father and an earthly mother, as to His flesh. He was different. Unique--as to the mortal physical body.

Just so long as you understand that Jesus has two totally different natures...he was and is God Almighty, the only true god...("my Lord and my God")

and Jesus was and is truly 100% human just as we are, ("the MAN Christ Jesus")


so its 2 natures = one person

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Just so long as you understand that Jesus has two totally different natures...he was and is God Almighty, the only true god...("my Lord and my God")

and Jesus was and is truly 100% human just as we are, ("the MAN Christ Jesus")


so its 2 natures = one person

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Actually--the "only true God" was not a designation used to denote Christ in the NT--but Christ's God.



John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Actually--the "only true God" was not a designation used to denote Christ in the NT--but Christ's God.

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Do you believe Christ is a false god?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---Just so long as you understand that Jesus has two totally different natures...he was and is God Almighty, the only true god...("my Lord and my God")

and Jesus was and is truly 100% human just as we are, ("the MAN Christ Jesus")


so its 2 natures = one person

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dberrie----Actually--the "only true God" was not a designation used to denote Christ in the NT--but Christ's God.


John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe Christ is a false god?

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No--that is just the knee-**** reaction to scriptures that defy faith alone theology.

The fact is--the only One ever designated as the "only true God" or the "one God" in the NT was the God of Jesus Christ---God the Father.


Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No--that is just the knee-**** reaction to scriptures that defy faith alone theology.

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But if the Father is the ONLY true God then you must believe that Jesus is a false god. Isn't that right?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---Just so long as you understand that Jesus has two totally different natures...he was and is God Almighty, the only true god...("my Lord and my God")

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dberrie----Actually--the "only true God" was not a designation used to denote Christ in the NT--but Christ's God.


John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

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Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Do you believe Christ is a false god?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---No--that is just the knee-**** reaction to scriptures that defy faith alone theology.

The fact is--the only One ever designated as the "only true God" or the "one God" in the NT was the God of Jesus Christ---God the Father.


Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But if the Father is the ONLY true God then you must believe that Jesus is a false god. Isn't that right?

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No, anymore than John thought Jesus was a false God--or Paul. They were the ones who placed Christ outside of the "only true God" or the "one God" of the NT.


1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)


6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

It just means that the Trinitarian theology is false, as we have it today--not the Biblical text.

Billyray--the fact of the Divine Council destroyed that years ago. Or are you not aware of the fact that most Biblical scholars now accept that as a reality?

Reading a little bit on this thread and this is an area where I have come to agree with Orthodox Christianity.

The Bible does say that God is Spirit and I do believe encasing him in a human body (even an exalted body) is to diminish the greatness..the vastness, the immensity of who He truly is..

That doesn't mean He cannot show himself, at times, in a "physical" way, like the burning bush..or even with human characteristics (like Christ), but I don't think any of that is His permanent state of being.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

He was different. Unique--as to the mortal physical body.

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Nope......totally wrong by the way and missed the whole point of being born a 'man"

The bible is very clear that Jesus was made "man".....not "almost human"....

Not "almost a man"

Not "human-looking".......


None of that junk....

The Bible teaches us very clearly that Jesus was born of Mary and is a "man"

1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---He was different. Unique--as to the mortal physical body.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Nope......totally wrong by the way and missed the whole point of being born a 'man"

The bible is very clear that Jesus was made "man".....not "almost human"....

Not "almost a man"

Not "human-looking".......


None of that junk....

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What is it about "The Only Begotten Son" you do not consider unique?

Could you explain for us what mortal man here on this earth ever had an earthly mother and a Heavenly Father?

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The Bible teaches us very clearly that Jesus was born of Mary and is a "man"

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Correct. A unique man. The Only Begotten Son. The only man ever born to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is it about "The Only Begotten Son"

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The term "only begotton" refers to the special relationship the father has with the son....
It's the bond...the special love between them...

This is why the Bible talks about a person being the "only begotten son" when that same son was not the first born son actually....there was a different son that was the first person born , but when you say that someone is the "only begotten" you are pointing to the special relationship you have with that person..

So this has nothing to do with biology, nothing to do with birth order, but has everything to do with a type of loving relationship you have with the person.

Now, while Jesus is the "only begotten" he is still fully human.

remember, there is not one line in the Bible that even slightly HINTS that Jesus was not a man......not 100% full human!!!!



So Jesus has to be 100% fully human as I am, or else I can not trust that the resurrection of Christ means i too can be resurrected.


But because I know that Jesus was fully a 'man'.....was fully a mortal human just as i am in every way, then i can look at his resurrection as a guide to my own future resurrection....

This is why the bible is so clear that Jesus is a "man"

Not a "man-like" creature....

not a "man-looking" person

not a Man/angel cross bread.....

But just a fully,normal, guy......just like me.


The resurrection of Jesus gives me the faith that just as God raised the fully human Body of Christ from the dead, he will be able in the same way to call my dead body from the grave....


AMEN!

So before Jesus was wrapped in human flesh, he was still eternal god as is the father....

Jesus was known as the "WORD" in the book of John, and the WORD is eternally God ....

So Jesus was is and will always be god almighty...but 2000 years ago wrapped himself in human flesh and was born a 100% fully Human!

Still eternal God, without beginning , without ending,,,,
But so that he could die as a man, he was wrapped in the body of men....and was and is and will always be, fully 100% human!

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now, while Jesus is the "only begotten" he is still fully human.
remember, there is not one line in the Bible that even slightly HINTS that Jesus was not a man......not 100% full human!!!!
So Jesus has to be 100% fully human as I am, or else I can not trust that the resurrection of Christ means i too can be resurrected.
But because I know that Jesus was fully a 'man'.....was fully a mortal human just as i am in every way, then i can look at his resurrection as a guide to my own future resurrection....

This is why the bible is so clear that Jesus is a "man"

Not a "man-like" creature....

not a "man-looking" person

not a Man/angel cross bread.....

But just a fully,normal, guy......just like me.
AMEN!

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But when an LDS leader said that God was once like us, some contra-LDS people yelled "He said that God was a SINNER, because if God was just like us, and we are sinners, then it has to mean that God was a sinner."

I am willing to not jump to such unwarranted conclusions in the case of your statement, however. I prefer to ***ume that you mean that Jesus was just like you as far as having a human body was concerned....not that He was just like you in every way including being a sinner.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But when an LDS leader said that God was once like us, some contra-LDS people yelled "He said that God was a SINNER, because if God was just like us, and we are sinners, then it has to mean that God was a sinner."

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Then God was not really like us then Jeff was he?

"As man is God once was, as God is man may be."

And you can't expect to be like God if you reject the first part of the couplet.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Then God was not really like us then Jeff was he?

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Then according to your argument, Jesus was not really like Alan Molstad, was He?

So what are ya gonna do with Alan's definite statement that Jesus is "just a fully,normal, guy......just like me." ???

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Then according to your argument, Jesus was not really like Alan Molstad, was He?

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Other than in a superficial ways we as people are in no way like God/Jesus. Rather we are his creation and he is our creator.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Other than in a superficial ways we as people are in no way like God/Jesus. Rather we are his creation and he is our creator.

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Our spiritual likenesses are more than "superficial". God made us in his image, which I believe means his spiritual image. We share many of his attributes....love, a sense of justice, creativity, a general knowledge of right and wrong, etc. If we allow him into our lives, allow him to live in us and to sanctify us, he will begin to perfect those natural attributes.