Does the Bible teach that there are many gods (polytheism)

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, yes--God is God of gods.

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Mormons believe in many gods (polytheism) whereas Christianity and Judaism teaches that there is only one God (monotheism). This is a huge difference in our beliefs and one that places mormonism outside of Christianity. It would be nice if lds could make their case using the Bible so we can at least see why they believe the way that they do.

What is the basis for believing that the Bible teaches polytheism?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Mormons believe in many gods (polytheism) whereas Christianity and Judaism teaches that there is only one God (monotheism). This is a huge difference in our beliefs and one that places mormonism outside of Christianity. It would be nice if lds could make their case using the Bible so we can at least see why they believe the way that they do.

What is the basis for believing that the Bible teaches polytheism?

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And here you go again. Mormons believe what the Bible teaches, that God is a God of gods. And even you Billyray admit that these "gods" are rulers that God has called and appointed---unless you believe it means God is "God of idols"---is that what you said you believed?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

And here you go again. Mormons believe what the Bible teaches, that God is a God of gods. And even you Billyray admit that these "gods" are rulers that God has called and appointed---unless you believe it means God is "God of idols"---is that what you said you believed?

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Fair enough you believe that the Bible teaches polytheism--I understand that part. The part that I don't understand about what you believe is who are these "gods". You said that a human ruler is a god but could you be a little bit more specific as to who exactly is a god?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Fair enough you believe that the Bible teaches polytheism--I understand that part. The part that I don't understand about what you believe is who are these "gods". You said that a human ruler is a god but could you be a little bit more specific as to who exactly is a god?

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No, I don't believe the Bible teaches polytheism. I think you believe that to acknowledge that "gods" as used in the Bible (to even mean more than just idols) means that one is polytheist.

But you never answered---do you think the Bible should read that God is "God of idols"?

Exactly, we have examples in the Bible--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The 12 apostles. The leaders God called or foreordained and whom he tells will sit as judges as well in the next life.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I don't believe the Bible teaches polytheism.

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Let's start with this one first so I can better understand what you believe.

You say that the Bible does not teach polytheism. But you have said that the Bible teaches that there are many gods.

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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

POLYTHEISM
"belief in or worship of more than one god"

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Since you believe in many gods by definition this is polytheism.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Exactly, we have examples in the Bible--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The 12 apostles. The leaders God called or foreordained and whom he tells will sit as judges as well in the next life.

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GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

I am trying to understand who you believe are gods. Can you give me a list of the who these gods are that are taught in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You believe that children of god are gods and I am a literal spirit child of god and his wife. So why am I not a god?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

In this context, we were talking of those who are called to be leaders. You are not.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Do you believe they were appointed by God?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."

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Originally Posted by Billyray

As noted above from the ESV Study Bible we don't know if these unrighteous rulers were Israelites or Gentiles. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

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This was posted in another thread but it is relevant for discussion in this thread. So I will ask my question agree for you in this thread since you haven't answered it yet in the other one.

As noted above from the ESV Study Bible we don't know if these unrighteous rulers were Israelites or Gentiles. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

This was posted in another thread but it is relevant for discussion in this thread. So I will ask my question agree for you in this thread since you haven't answered it yet in the other one.

As noted above from the ESV Study Bible we don't know if these unrighteous rulers were Israelites or Gentiles. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

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Oh, you think that God is calling gentile leaders "god" and children of the Most High? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, you think that God is calling gentile leaders "god" and children of the Most High? Interesting.

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ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."

According to the above note from the ESV Study Bible--"The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state. If these were Gentile rulers in this section of scripture God is referring to them as "gods".

So back to my question to you--Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."

According to the above note from the ESV Study Bible--"The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state. If these were Gentile rulers in this section of scripture God is referring to them as "gods".

So back to my question to you--Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

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So you do. No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read.

But if you read it that way---then that backs the argument that all are children of God and not just those who are His through the covenant:


Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

So you do. No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read.

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Whether they were Israelite or Gentile rulers doesn't change anything from my perspective.

So how about an answer to my question. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Whether they were Israelite or Gentile rulers doesn't change anything from my perspective.

So how about an answer to my question. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

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Once again: No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read. So, while you don't think it matters, I do. You answer your own question---if they are gentiles, why does God call them "gods" and "children of the Most High"---since you are the one who believes that they were gentiles---this really becomes a question for you to answer.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again: No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read. So, while you don't think it matters, I do. You answer your own question---if they are gentiles, why does God call them "gods" and "children of the Most High"---since you are the one who believes that they were gentiles---this really becomes a question for you to answer.

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I am trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods" so I can better understand your beliefs. I understand that you think that these guys were Israelites and not Gentiles but if you noticed I asked you IF they were would you then consider them to be "gods". But I see that you are not going to answer that one. Fair enough. So here is where we stand so far as noted below. Is this all of the "gods" or are there others?

GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I am trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods" so I can better understand your beliefs. I understand that you think that these guys were Israelites and not Gentiles but if you noticed I asked you IF they were would you then consider them to be "gods". But I see that you are not going to answer that one. Fair enough. So here is where we stand so far as noted below. Is this all of the "gods" or are there others?

GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

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I have explained this to you already. You believe that these "gods" are Gentiles. I have answered you many times. I said they are Jews. You asks for more. I gave you names such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now you want me to answer it based on your belief that they are Gentiles--but that is YOUR belief. So, now you get to answer my question---why do you think God calls Gentile leaders "gods" and "children of the Most High"---I have answered, why do you ignore my question?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I have explained this to you already. You believe that these "gods" are Gentiles.

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My personal belief is that the unrighteous judges spoken about in Psalm 82 are Israelites but that is not what I was asking you--rather I was asking you IF they were Gentiles would you say that they are "gods". But you didn't want to answer that. Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I have answered you many times. I said they are Jews. You asks for more. I gave you names such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now you want me to answer it based on your belief that they are Gentiles--but that is YOUR belief. So, now you get to answer my question---why do you think God calls Gentile leaders "gods" and "children of the Most High"---I have answered, why do you ignore my question?

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BigJ you claim that the Bible teaches that there are many "gods" I am simply trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods".
GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

Are there any more or is that it?

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Billyray

My personal belief is that the unrighteous judges spoken about in Psalm 82 are Israelites but that is not what I was asking you--rather I was asking you IF they were Gentiles would you say that they are "gods". But you didn't want to answer that. Fair enough.

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Because you gave me the ESV belief that they were possibly Gentiles. I am curious why you won't answer if the ESV believes that, then how do you interpret Psalms 82. But you didn't answer that.

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BigJ you claim that the Bible teaches that there are many "gods" I am simply trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods".
GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

Are there any more or is that it?

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I don't "claim" that it does, it just does. It states God is God of gods. Christ calls the unrighteous leaders gods. As I have answered you what I think these "gods" are that the Bible speaks of, why don't you answer me. You have said that they are idols. You have said that they are unrighteous leaders. Do you think that they are also righteous leaders such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 apostles? (As I have told you I believe--do you agree with me on that?)

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Because you gave me the ESV belief that they were possibly Gentiles. I am curious why you won't answer if the ESV believes that, then how do you interpret Psalms 82. But you didn't answer that.

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ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."

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Here is the quote again--perhaps you misread it. It doesn't say one way or the other. I am the one who asked you IF they were Gentiles would these unrighteous judges be "gods". So I take it that your answer would be no?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

. . .I don't "claim" that it does, it just does. It states God is God of gods. . .

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Which is what I am trying to get to the bottom of and who you believe these "gods" are. Thus far you have said that the "gods" are unrighteous judges and that is it. You mentioned Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 apostles but I haven't seen that you said that they were also gods. BigJ help me understand what you actually believe.

You have given me the following examples for the "gods" that you are speaking about

1. Unrighteous judges
2. Idols

So far the "gods" that you have given me are not that God like.

Could you define "gods" for me?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You have given me the following examples for the "gods" that you are speaking about

1. Unrighteous judges
2. Idols

So far the "gods" that you have given me are not that God like.

Could you define "gods" for me?

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Actually, I think that was the definition you gave me---unless you think my answer of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob fit the definition of "unrighteous leaders" or "idols". Man Billyray, I have at least attempted to answer your questions even if you have ignored them. But you make no attempt to even try to answer mine. No more, until you answer mine.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, I think that was the definition you gave me---unless you think my answer of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob fit the definition of "unrighteous leaders" or "idols".

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I am asking you for your definition of "gods" since you are the one who believes that the Bible teaches polytheism.

I am not sure why you brought up Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob since you have not even claimed that they are gods--unless I overlooked it in one of your posts.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does it say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are gods?

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You have convinced me that you do not read my answers. You asked specifically who I thought "gods" might refer to as in Psalms 82 and in God being God of gods.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I don't believe the Bible teaches polytheism. I think you believe that to acknowledge that "gods" as used in the Bible (to even mean more than just idols) means that one is polytheist.

But you never answered---do you think the Bible should read that God is "God of idols"?

Exactly, we have examples in the Bible--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The 12 apostles. The leaders God called or foreordained and whom he tells will sit as judges as well in the next life.

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Here, read this again. And if you do not answer my question, do not expect a reply.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

But you make no attempt to even try to answer mine. No more, until you answer mine.

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But this thread is about the reason that you believe that the Bible teaches polytheism. I don't believe that the Bible teaches polytheism so I am not sure why you think my input would help figure out why you believe the Bible supports polytheism.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here, read this again. And if you do not answer my question, do not expect a reply.

But you never answered---do you think the Bible should read that God is "God of idols"?

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Actually I have answered this question several times. But I am more than happy to answer this one again for you. God is God over everything including idols and unrighteous judges.