Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old Ta Prohm Temple in Cambodia - 1186 A.D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwKTRsaTaY
Stegosaurus carving at 800 year old Ta Prohm Temple in Cambodia - 1186 A.D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwKTRsaTaY
Plesiosaur on Egyptian Coffin 530 B.C.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AtYXjOIeZ0
if you want to believe in something enough.....
The Loch Ness Monster was/is probably a Plesiosaur.
Growing up we used to hear stories of "Eye Witness" accounts of things like Bigfoot,UFOs, Sea Monsters, etc all the time.
And once in a while someone would come forward with a Photo to support their story too.
but not any more.
That stopped around the beginning of the 21th century.
Why? you may ask....
The reason is that we all got them "Smart Phones"now with their ability to take very clear and sharp videos and photos.
Once we all became able to take such real proof to back-up a UFO story, all the so-called proof disappeared.
No more fuzzy photos of a UFO.
No more stories of seeing a sea monster while out fishing.
No more accounts of sighting Bigfoot.
This shows us that all the wild stories of the past were fake, or just made by people that were confused.
Check this out :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mneDhOtVEQw
If people need to believe Im sure they will.....
The reason I'm posting these things is to counter attack the lie that the world is millions of years old and that dinosaurs died off millions of years ago. From these depictions on artifacts we can see that they coexisted with humans.
I believe the earth is Billions of years old.....and that the dinos died off millions and millions of years before the rise of modern man,,,except for the fact that it looks like our modern birds are just evolved dinos....
and I believe this is in harmony with the story of Genesis....
I wish more people would chime in and share their thoughts :( even if they disagree.
My views on early Earth history are these...
Basically that Genesis works well next to Evolution and that there are no real issues between the two.
That is the general idea that I hold to.
Now from a Bible student point of view I look at the text of the Bible as written,and for the most part I dont see any problems to get bent out of shape about....
Everything more or less works within the teachings of science, and there is no need at all to believe in a young Earth, nor fear the teachings of science concerning the age of the universe or the evolution of Life on this world..
Now as for the specifics as to where I totally disagree with the Young Earth teachings....
The main disagreement I have concerns the way the Young Earth teachers read the Genesis story concerning the creation of light on the earth.
Young Earth Teachers believe that God created light before he created the sun, the source of light.
I believe the Bible teaches that God created the sun first....and therefore there is no need at all to invent this so-called "source-less light"!
The odd thing in this , is that once you see that you don't need to invent a source-less light for genesis, none of the rest of the story really disagrees with modern Science and Evolution at all.
So in other words- The young Earth teachers invented a non-biblical concept of a 'source-less light" twisted it into their understanding of the story, and then from then on that one lie forced them to come up with all kinds of other crazy reasons to make the whole house of cards stand up...
Everything else taught by the Young Earth Teachers (And there is a big list, I should know as I attended an 8-week cl*** taught personally by Ken Ham himself, so I have heard it all from the best) is only there to support the source-less light idea...and that is an idea that they just invented and is not really in the text at all.
So that is one of the first things I attack with any student of the Young earth teachers...
I attack the concept taught to them for a source-less light...
I show the student that the Bible does tell us that all the lights in Genesis have a very normal source, that is still there burning today...
And once the student sees that the whole Young Earth teaching was build on the invented idea of a source-less light it gets a lot more easy to show them what the bible actually says compared to what the Young earth Teachers told them it said....
This is the main issue I have with the Young earth teachings, and where I believe they go off the rails.
Quote:
I believe the earth is Billions of years old.....and that the dinos died off millions and millions of years before the rise of modern man,,,except for the fact that it looks like our modern birds are just evolved dinos....
and I believe this is in harmony with the story of Genesis....
The world which God made for man to inhabit was 'very good', these were God's words. It had been prepared to receive him as its crown, and the setting was constructed so as to be ideal for Adam and Eve. The world was not created with the Fall in mind, still less with the curse of death already let loose. The bible tells us that there was no death in the world before sin, evolution suggests that there were billions of years of incredible waste, death, pain, and horror. The Bible states quite specifically that death did not exist until Adam and Eve sinned against God. Scientifically speaking, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, a proven law of science, also makes evolution impossible.
The bible does not blame animal death onto man's sin...so that part of your statement is in error
If you also have a question about anything I have posted so far just ask me now to quote the verse that teaches it?
Another picture:
Attachment 239
And some more:
Attachment 240
well???>>>I mean think about what you are asking...Quote:
...you want me to show you that the Bible does not list a verse that blames animal death onto man's sin?
Its sorta like if I said "There is no verse in the bible that teaches that men should wear heir underwear on the outside over their pants"...and you ask me to show you that verse????????
Its kinda hard to show you a verse that I just told you does not exist.
------------------------------------------------
But,,,,,so that you have a better understanding of what the Bible says, I will now point out a few things:
The Bible gives no reason at all why animals could not have died before the sin of Adam.
The Bible only blames the death of men onto the sin of Adam....
Just look at a verse that is often used to try to prove me wrong to see what Im saying...
Turn to Romans 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men..."
The Young Earth Teachers look at this verse and only read the part that says, "By one man sin entered the world, and death" and stop reading there and think, "That proves that all death including the death of animals came from Adam's sin!"
But I just then point out that if they had not stopped reading right there, but just kept reading for a little bit more they would see what that verse is actually talking about...For it then says that this death came to "all men"
The whole verse is only talking about the sin of men, and the death of humans...
For "human" death does clearly come from the sin of Adam....
That is what the Bible is saying at Romans 5:12 and so that is what I believe too.
Now some might try to say that the word "all" seen in some translations of Romans 5:12 must be talking about all the death on the earth including all animals.
But I would just point out that in anther section of the story of Genesis it makes use of this very same word "all" but it cant be talking about "all = all animals too"
Check out Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
Here we see the word "all " used to talk about "all life" and its used in a manner that the Bible also talks about death coming to "all" but as we see, it cant possible be talking about the animals too, or else you are saying that Eve gave birth to "all" the animals too!!!!
So to sum up....
When someone says that "all death" in the world is the result of Adam's sin we have to just point out that the Bible only means "all human death", just like when the Bible tells us that Eve is the Mother of "All living" (or "all life" in some Bibles) that this is only talking about all "human" life.
So do you believe that man evolved or just everything else?Quote:
well???>>>I mean think about what you are asking...
...you want me to show you that the Bible does not list a verse that blames animal death onto man's sin?
Its sorta like if I said "There is no verse in the bible that teaches that men should wear heir underwear on the outside over their pants"...and you ask me to show you that verse????????
Its kinda hard to show you a verse that I just told you does not exist.
------------------------------------------------
But,,,,,so that you have a better understanding of what the Bible says, I will now point out a few things:
The Bible gives no reason at all why animals could not have died before the sin of Adam.
The Bible only blames the death of men onto the sin of Adam....
Just look at a verse that is often used to try to prove me wrong to see what Im saying...
Turn to Romans 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men..."
The Young Earth Teachers look at this verse and only read the part that says, "By one man sin entered the world, and death" and stop reading there and think, "That proves that all death including the death of animals came from Adam's sin!"
But I just then point out that if they had not stopped reading right there, but just kept reading for a little bit more they would see what that verse is actually talking about...For it then says that this death came to "all men"
The whole verse is only talking about the sin of men, and the death of humans...
For "human" death does clearly come from the sin of Adam....
That is what the Bible is saying at Romans 5:12 and so that is what I believe too.
Now some might try to say that the word "all" seen in some translations of Romans 5:12 must be talking about all the death on the earth including all animals.
But I would just point out that in anther section of the story of Genesis it makes use of this very same word "all" but it cant be talking about "all = all animals too"
Check out Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
Here we see the word "all " used to talk about "all life" and its used in a manner that the Bible also talks about death coming to "all" but as we see, it cant possible be talking about the animals too, or else you are saying that Eve gave birth to "all" the animals too!!!!
So to sum up....
When someone says that "all death" in the world is the result of Adam's sin we have to just point out that the Bible only means "all human death", just like when the Bible tells us that Eve is the Mother of "All living" (or "all life" in some Bibles) that this is only talking about all "human" life.
What we find in the Bible is a story that will walk with Evolution without disagreement.
Lets look at the Text:
What we find is that Man is created not inside the protected garden, but outside it.
We dont really know what life was like outside the garden,,,but we can understand that there is a reason we call one the "wilderness' and the other the "garden".
Now what is man made from according to evolution?
The answer is that you can trace back humans to earlier forms of early humans, to the big apes, and before that we go to a common type of mammal, and I guess before that we are talking some type of fish or something, and before that we started out as some type of single-cell life form...
and before even that first single-cell lifeforms?....well then we are dealing with the different forms of pre-life that formed later life.
and before even that?......well then we are talking so far back into evolutionary history that we are dealing with the very first building blocks of life....
and before that?....well...before that we come to the fundamental elements that over millions of years started to change into things that life would come forth from....
and before that...whats the final source for life on the earth according to Evolution?.....the answer is that everything started out as the Earth itself.
That in a very real way according to the teachings of Evolution, we are nothing more than just a part of this Earth that has come to life.
In in the end, Evolution will trace back life to the "Earth"
Ok!
Now lets compare that answer to what the bible teaches is the source where all life including humans came forth from...
Of man it says about our source - "until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken;"
So according to Genesis we are from the Earth too...
So this is in agreement with Evolution.
But what about the animals, do we share a source with the animals according to genesis?......yes, "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.
So to sum this all up:
In both Evolution and in Genesis there is complete agreement as to the source of all life, both Human and the animals.....
so what this means is that its totally fine to believe that humans evolved.
That the Text of the bible is written in such a way as to work with Evolution.
That while the Bible does not "teach" evolution, it does not teach against it...
thus there is no need for the Christian to be afraid that evolution is against God's plan...
In fact, what we can decided from reading both Genesis and from learning about the world from science, is that evolution is a "tool" of the Lord's hand....
and thus evolution is to be respected .
and considered as holy as sunshine, rain, and the all the things that God has made in this universe...
with me still?
If there is anything I have posted that you want me to provide you with support from the text?...just let me know.
,I will be more than happy to go over anything I have written.
What I have attempted to do is point out to you is that there is a difference in how our bodies of flesh got here...and with our being made in the image of God.
They are two totally different things.
The flesh of man is not made in the image of God...
(That is yet another way i disagree with the Mormons )
These are very interesting finds Jude, I'm not a scientist and haven't studied these things to great lengths, but these are my thoughts.Quote:
I believe the "days" mentioned in Genesis are creative time periods. We have no way of knowing how long each period really was, nor can we ***ume each period was the same duration of time. I believe science is important, but it evolves with man's understanding of the world around him, and with the resources and technology available. So no "facts" are set in stone IMO. New breakthroughs in science cause us to adjust previous hypotheses, and new discoveries (like what you have presented here) cause us to rethink a lot more. In short I don't think we have any way of knowing for sure how old the earth really is.
I think the "no death" before the Fall is also interesting, but I have to agree with Alan that the Fall only affected man and not animals. If the Fall had affected animal life, that would mean they were also subject to the same terms, which would imply that animals would experience a spiritual death as well as a physical, meaning they sin. Since animals are in fact sinless, this doesn't work. Plus, we were the only beings made in His image. So I believe death in the natural world was possible before Adam & Eve in the Garden.
That being said....I do not nor ever will believe we evolved from apes. Once again, we were made in His image....whatever you take "image" to mean, it does not include anything other than man. I don't believe in evolution as much as I believe in a form of evolving adaptation in the animal kingdom. Animals have always adapted to new environments and conditions, that's been recorded throughout the history of man. Dinosaurs are definitely interesting, my mom told me something she theorized once that I will not be sharing here lol.
But finally, I believe that man will never be able to gain complete scientific PROOF of the existence of God. I believe one of the purposes for us coming to earth was to come to Him and believe in Him through faith. It's part of His plan for us. I think science is fantastic (God was the Original Scientist) and it can be used to complement our faith in God and all His creations. I just know that a man without faith would never be able to simply prove God does in fact exist. That would frustrate the Master's Plan.
Of course there are many things that escape my understanding, and places where science and faith don't appear to come together at all. Thats when I fall back on faith in Him and trust His understanding, and not mans, and look to the day when these things will in fact be revealed and explained to us. So in the end, I don't sweat those things too much.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Again if anything I have posted looks questionable just ask me for a verse..
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I think you would have an argument with Jesus Alan, here is what He said in Matthew 19:4-5," And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? Jesus said God created man and woman at the beginning, male and female fully human from the start. No long procession of sub human creatures dying until Adam finally showed up. What about the hominoid right before Adam that died, the one that was almost fully human do you consider that the death of an animal? It is not totally fine to believe in evolution, it is a tool of the devil not of God.Quote:
so what this means is that its totally fine to believe that humans evolved.
That the Text of the bible is written in such a way as to work with Evolution.
That while the Bible does not "teach" evolution, it does not teach against it...
thus there is no need for the Christian to be afraid that evolution is against God's plan...
In fact, what we can decided from reading both Genesis and from learning about the world from science, is that evolution is a "tool" of the Lord's hand....
and thus evolution is to be respected .
and considered as holy as sunshine, rain, and the all the things that God has made in this universe...
Jesus was talking about marriage.... Jesus was teaching about marriage and divorce.Quote:
I think you would have an argument with Jesus Alan, here is what He said in Matthew 19:4-5," And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? Jesus said God created man and woman at the beginning, male and female fully human from the start. No long procession of sub human creatures dying until Adam finally showed up. What about the hominoid right before Adam that died, the one that was almost fully human do you consider that the death of an animal? It is not totally fine to believe in evolution, it is a tool of the devil not of God.
But Jesus is also correct in the humans were created from the beginning as males and females...The sexual differences between males and females goes back into evolution's history millions if not billions of years....so i have no problem with that.
But as for the death that happened for untold billions of years before the sin of Adam?...what of it?...
Lets look at the story of Genesis to find our answer-,
Where is mankind taken from?......the answer is that God took the man from where he was created first,(outside the garden) and he brought the man into the protected garden.
Was life like for the humans inside the garden the same as what life was like to humans outside the garden?....The answer is, we dont know how to answer that question.
But what we can know for sure is the the term "garden" teaches us that there is a very real difference between how things were inside the garden,compared to how things were outside it.
We know this because the very term "garden" teaches us this....
Now the reason the Young Earth Teachers go off the rails and dont know how to understand Earth's history is that they don't know the Bible.
The Young Earth teachers dont understand how God could make "light" first without making a star like our sun to be the source for that light yet?????
They don't understand how there could be any light when the bible says that god did not make the sun until the 4th day?
What is the answer?.....The answer is that God made stars like our sun first!
What about the 4th day, does not the Bible say that God made the sun on the 4th day?......The answer is that the Bible does not actually say that God made the "sun"on the 4th day at all !
So what does the Bible teach as to the creation of stars like our sun?.....The answer is that God created stars like our sun first as it is written "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."
So the use of the term "Heavens"in Gen 1:1is talking about our sun being created first?......The answer is that the term "Heavens" can be talking about all the things in space,,,not only stars like our own Sun, but also all the other things like other worlds and black holes and things that we dont even have names for yet and are as yet unknown!
So the Bible is in agreement with the order of things in outer-space?......The answer is YES!
So the "light" that is created at the beginning of the Genesis story was just the resultof the stars that God made like our own sun at Genesis 1:1?......The answer is YES!
So there is no need to invent the concept of a "sourceless light' just to answer the question "Where did the light come from?"......the answer is that God made the stars like our own sun forst, and from that moment we have a very normal source for all the light talked about in the rest of the Genesis story.
But is the "light" that is talked about in the verse that says "Let there be light" from the very same source as the light talked about on the 4th day?.......The answer is that the light is all the same light, the Light at the start of the Genesis story is from the sun just as all the light talked about on the 4th day is all from the same sun, all the light talked about in Genesis is from stars like our own sun.
Sorry Alan, evolution is a theory that has not and cannot be proven and to say it can be put along side scripture is incorrect. Let God be true and every man a liar.Quote:
Jesus was talking about marriage.... Jesus was teaching about marriage and divorce.
But Jesus is also correct in the humans were created from the beginning as males and females...The sexual differences between males and females goes back into evolution's history millions if not billions of years....so i have no problem with that.
But as for the death that happened for untold billions of years before the sin of Adam?...what of it?...
Lets look at the story of Genesis to find our answer-,
Where is mankind taken from?......the answer is that God took the man from where he was created first,(outside the garden) and he brought the man into the protected garden.
Was life like for the humans inside the garden the same as what life was like to humans outside the garden?....The answer is, we dont know how to answer that question.
But what we can know for sure is the the term "garden" teaches us that there is a very real difference between how things were inside the garden,compared to how things were outside it.
We know this because the very term "garden" teaches us this....
Now the reason the Young Earth Teachers go off the rails and dont know how to understand Earth's history is that they don't know the Bible.
The Young Earth teachers dont understand how God could make "light" first without making a star like our sun to be the source for that light yet?????
They don't understand how there could be any light when the bible says that god did not make the sun until the 4th day?
What is the answer?.....The answer is that God made stars like our sun first!
What about the 4th day, does not the Bible say that God made the sun on the 4th day?......The answer is that the Bible does not actually say that God made the "sun"on the 4th day at all !
So what does the Bible teach as to the creation of stars like our sun?.....The answer is that God created stars like our sun first as it is written "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."
So the use of the term "Heavens"in Gen 1:1is talking about our sun being created first?......The answer is that the term "Heavens" can be talking about all the things in space,,,not only stars like our own Sun, but also all the other things like other worlds and black holes and things that we dont even have names for yet and are as yet unknown!
So the Bible is in agreement with the order of things in outer-space?......The answer is YES!
So the "light" that is created at the beginning of the Genesis story was just the resultof the stars that God made like our own sun at Genesis 1:1?......The answer is YES!
So there is no need to invent the concept of a "sourceless light' just to answer the question "Where did the light come from?"......the answer is that God made the stars like our own sun forst, and from that moment we have a very normal source for all the light talked about in the rest of the Genesis story.
But is the "light" that is talked about in the verse that says "Let there be light" from the very same source as the light talked about on the 4th day?.......The answer is that the light is all the same light, the Light at the start of the Genesis story is from the sun just as all the light talked about on the 4th day is all from the same sun, all the light talked about in Genesis is from stars like our own sun.
again.....if you have any questions about something I have posted on this topic, or would like me to backup something I have said with a bible verse?...just ask.Quote:
I believe all the points I have raised are taken right out of the Bible's text and can be proved.
Im also going to be posting a lot more on this topic today as i dig deeper into the errors of the Young Earth Teachers and comparing them to what the bible teaches.
feel free at any time to stop me and ask "Where is that in the Bible?"should you see something posted you call into question...
Today I plan to deal with the issue of the "Days" of the Genesis story....and you will see that you are correct, there is no real way to know the length of time each day is talking about....
Quote:
Can I ask you a favor ? Can you please start a new thread in the Creationism/Evolutionism section ? The reason I ask is because this particular thread is about Archaeology and dinosaurs in Anceint Art. The thread is kind of getting derailed a little bit.
Sounds good
.....and thats how you kill a topic kids.....