If the Golden Plates were made available…what would happen?

Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was p***ed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original m****cripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing m****cripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…


Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or br***”?

This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

My list…

No one can read this language it is made up!

They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

“A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.
There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

They store them behind protective gl***, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

No God would require obedience for salvation.

I will add others as additional posts…

My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

Be serious and have fun.

"Look!... the plates are fake. It says 'Made in Palmyra, NY' on the back."
"Written by the very Hand of God! But... I wonder... which... one??"
"Lock them away in the LDS vault! Gold will ONLY go up."
"Look what we found after an Angel instructed us to treasure dig in the Comoros Islands (called Camora Islands in 1808) near Madagascar, off the South-east coast of Africa, in the capital city (in 1876) of Moroni... GOLD!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah
"Look what we found treasure digging at the Hill Cumorah...GOLD! We dug in NY (or was it South America??) and even though we did not find any evidence of a GREAT Battle, we still found these PLATES... THANKS Moroni!"

PaPa stated: "I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied."

How about some actual evidence that Joseph actually translated ANYTHING off these plates if his head was buried in a hat, miraculously "translating"? Remember, LDS say the Angel took the plates BACK but not so with the 10 Commandments. So, conceivably, someone could STILL find the Ark of the Covenant, just as the Dead Sea Scrolls were (relatively) recently discovered.

IF this was a legitimate question.
IF I had a magic rock in a hat pulled over my face.
IF those "caractors" shown to Dr. Anthon really were a real language.
IF Egyptologists really thought Joseph had translated those facsimiles accurately.
IF Nephites really had existed.

Just thought I would help you with some future threads PaPa.

Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

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J we don't have any ancient Book of Mormon m****cripts that predates Joseph. For the Bible we have thousands. There is simply no comparison between the two.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Pa Pa, to add to your list--no ark of the covenant, no Urim and Thummin, no breastplate---all of these were artifacts Jewish theology.

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Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

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Originally Posted by Radix

Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

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Please honor us with your vast knowledge and tell us, based on the evidence from the Book of Mormon (please provide references) what would you expect to find in the area you have determined to be the location (again provide references from the Book of Mormon to support your claim) that the Book took place.

And don't claim that you can't prove a negative. You are the one who claimed that there is no proof for the Nephites, so now you have to show why you make that claim. It is your claim, so support it. If you can't prove a negative, then you have no business making this claim.

Marvin

PS Eight witnesses testify that the plates existed and 4 witnesses claim to have had a witness from God and testify that the book is from God. That is my first level evidence that the Nephites existed.

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Please honor us with your vast knowledge and tell us, based on the evidence from the Book of Mormon (please provide references) what would you expect to find in the area you have determined to be the location (again provide references from the Book of Mormon to support your claim) that the Book took place.

And don't claim that you can't prove a negative. You are the one who claimed that there is no proof for the Nephites, so now you have to show why you make that claim. It is your claim, so support it. If you can't prove a negative, then you have no business making this claim.

Marvin

PS Eight witnesses testify that the plates existed and 4 witnesses claim to have had a witness from God and testify that the book is from God. That is my first level evidence that the Nephites existed.

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Provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the existence of Nephites. If you cannot, it is wishful thinking.

And you are right. There is no proof for a negative. Mormons claim Nephites are legitimate, it is up to you Marvin to provide evidence to support your claim. Nephites were NEVER mentioned in any of my school text books or lectures.

RussianWolfe:

Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Radix

Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

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How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?

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J how about comparing like for like. The Golden plates were what we were talking about. What we are after is the Golden plates OR any writings from any of the books contained within the Book of Mormon. For the Bible we have thousands of ancient m****cripts.

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Originally Posted by Radix

Let's see, all the artifacts listed did involve people we know ACTUALLY EXISTED. Outside the fictional creating mind of Joseph Smith, no proof for Nephites.

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Originally Posted by Radix

Provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the existence of Nephites. If you cannot, it is wishful thinking.

And you are right. There is no proof for a negative. Mormons claim Nephites are legitimate, it is up to you Marvin to provide evidence to support your claim. Nephites were NEVER mentioned in any of my school text books or lectures.

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Now you are changing your statements. See the enlarged highlighted portion above to review what you said. Now, since you have made the claim, please provide the evidence that has lead to your conclusion. It was your claim so now you have to put up or shut up.

To counter your challenge, please 'provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the exitence of' the following: The Garden of Eden, the original stone tablet with the 10 commandments, Noah's Ark, the original holographs of any of the books of the Bible. When you have provided these evidences, then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

Marvin

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Originally Posted by jdjhere

RussianWolfe:

Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.

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I am not making any claims of the sort you are asking for. If you want to know, the search it out for yourself.

Radix did make a claim and is stacking claims on top of claims. So your diversion isn't going to fly.

Marvin

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

. . .then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

Marvin

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Does that mean you actually have any evidence for the Nephites living in the Americas OR are you pulling our leg Marvin?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

How do you know they actually existed? Have you ever seen them? Has anyone you know ever seen them?

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Let me guess BigJulie, you never actually took a college course in world history did you?

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Now you are changing your statements. See the enlarged highlighted portion above to review what you said. Now, since you have made the claim, please provide the evidence that has lead to your conclusion. It was your claim so now you have to put up or shut up.

To counter your challenge, please 'provide one substantive piece of evidence acceptable to at least half of the University archaeologists that would confirm the exitence of' the following: The Garden of Eden, the original stone tablet with the 10 commandments, Noah's Ark, the original holographs of any of the books of the Bible. When you have provided these evidences, then I will gladly provide the evidence of the Nephites.

Marvin

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Let's see, you want me to find you a garden, or a single stone or m****cripts thousands of years old. I am asking you to provide evidence of a civilization. I can provide evidence of a Jewish civilization.

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Originally Posted by Radix

Let me guess BigJulie, you never actually took a college course in world history did you?

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Is that a no to my question?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Is that a no to my question?

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The quality of the question begs me at ask 'Have you taken a breath of air today?'

You want to know if the Jewish people are real? Did they actually exist in Biblical times? Have fun looking up this tid bit. Tel Dan (“David”) Stela

Now using a source other than Joseph Smith, can you provide anything about Nephites?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_of_***us

" . . .The Arch of ***us is a 1st-century honorific arch[1] located on the Via Sacra, Rome, just to the south-east of the Roman Forum. It was constructed in c.82 AD by the Roman Emperor Domitian shortly after the death of his older brother ***us to commemorate ***us' victories, including the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. . .

. . .The south panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The Golden Candlestick or Menorah (see [Exodus 25:31-40]) is the main focus and is carved in deep relief. Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Silver Trumpets (see [Numbers 10:1-10]) and the Table of Shewbread (see [Exodus 25:23-30]).[2] These spoils were originally gilded with gold, with the background in blue.[2]. . ."

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Carrying_off_the_Menorah_from_the_Temple_in_Jerusa lem_depicted_on_a_frieze_on_the_Arch_of_***us_in_t he_Forum_Romanum.JPG/576px-Carrying_off_the_Menorah_from_the_Temple_in_Jerusa lem_depicted_on_a_frieze_on_the_Arch_of_***us_in_t he_Forum_Romanum.JPG[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by Radix

Let's see, you want me to find you a garden, or a single stone or m****cripts thousands of years old. I am asking you to provide evidence of a civilization. I can provide evidence of a Jewish civilization.

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Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

Marvin

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

Marvin

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Marvin there is absolutely no comparison between the evidence for the Bible verses the Book of Mormon. Why do you think that is?

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Still trying to dodge the claim you made.

And still not able to support your claims. Typical. Keep dancing, Radix.

Marvin

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My only claim here is that the Jewish people did indeed exist in what we call ancient times. Now most education people would call this common sense. Only you would seem not to acknowledge this. Start using the eyes God gave you.

It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites, and yet you claim I am unable to support anything. Your entire world rests on a dead con artist who made claims while holding a rock in a hat over his face. As a con artist is the center of your being, it provides some insight why you play these shallow games.

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Originally Posted by Radix

My only claim here is that the Jewish people did indeed exist in what we call ancient times. Now most education people would call this common sense. Only you would seem not to acknowledge this. Start using the eyes God gave you.

It is pathetic I provide a reference for ancient Jews, you provide NOTHING valid for Nephites, and yet you claim I am unable to support anything. Your entire world rests on a dead con artist who made claims while holding a rock in a hat over his face. As a con artist is the center of your being, it provides some insight why you play these shallow games.

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What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing. I have even given you a reference and the complete post and yet you still avoid talking about your claim.

Thanks for providing the evidence that you have no ability to back up your claims.

Marvin

PS Why is it when ever I try to get you to support your claim, you change the subject?

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing.

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Hey Marvin are you ever going to give us any proof for the Nephites living in the America?

RussianWolfe:

Did the people called Narods of the Grand Lakes regions in southern Peru exist? If they DID, please give archeological and textual (historical) proof that they did . If they did NOT exist, please explain WHY you came to this conclusion. Thanks.

Are you going to answer this RussianWolfe? It is NOT a diversion as you claim but a reasoned, researched scientific REASON why and how we know certain people and places existed in history. I can give you ZERO proof or evidence that the Narods existed or that there was a place called Grand Lakes in Peru. I came to the conclusion that they did not ever exist because there is no archeological or historical proof that they ever existed because as we all know, of course, I made them up. This is called common sense. Now, show us your proof historically and archeologically that Nephites existed and I for one will start to take you more seriously. Thanks for showing us in advance.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Hey Marvin are you ever going to give us any proof for the Nephites living in the America?

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Of course he will not. His religion is too incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

What is really pathetic is your continual running away from the claim that started this whole thing. I have even given you a reference and the complete post and yet you still avoid talking about your claim.

Thanks for providing the evidence that you have no ability to back up your claims.

Marvin

PS Why is it when ever I try to get you to support your claim, you change the subject?

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I do not change the subject, your just programmed to not accept the answer. And why is it I am the only one who is obligated to answer any questions? How about a little legitimate proof of Nephites? The only thing we see from you is your whining that nobody seems to be able to read your mind. You claim research, and produce nothing (that was another recent thread), and here you have not provided an iota of information about the Nephites. Of course we understand why, that is because they are fic***ious. As I am typing this out, I see you are doing the only thing you can. You just complain about everyone else's answers, because your substanceless religion has no answers to anyone else's questions here.

Book of Mormon Evidences - Dr. Daniel Peterson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNgnk_L748

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJor1...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPv5...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPv5...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6-W8...eature=related

Another very interesting series of evidence for the Book of Mormon (a re****al to a critic's video called "The Bible vs Book of Mormon")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPlCu...watch_response

This is a several part series (13, I think) which you can find at the site.

Libby, I also have a great-great (can't remember the number of greats) grandfather who recorded in his journal that when he prayed about whether the church was true, an angel appeared to him and showed him the gold plates. (This was during the first years of the church.) Well, as I know that my family members did not tend to be crazy; were very hard working, and were very honest; that is a strong witness to me as well. There is nothing else in his journal to lead one to believe that he was not in his right mind or that he did not take life very seriously.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Libby, I also have a great-great (can't remember the number of greats) grandfather who recorded in his journal that when he prayed about whether the church was true, an angel appeared to him and showed him the gold plates.

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I believe it J because Satan can appear as an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Libby, even though you say you are no longer LDS you do seem, at times, to want to defend certain claims and positions of theirs, which is fine, but because of that I will direct my question to you instead because RussianWolfe has not even TRIED to answer it.

Show us proof historically and archeologically that Nephites existed in America (or ANYPLACE for that matter) and I for one will start to take the BOM more seriously.

I watched two of the videos you posted and did not even get CLOSE to an answer for my above question. Could you please tell me which one of these videos answers my question above? Thank you.

Did you watch the last video she gave in which it has been shown that the beliefs about the native americans in the past have been slowly refuted and that the culture is more in line with the Book of Mormon?

A friend of mine went to South America on his mission and he said that there is history there that is consistent with the Book of Mormon teachings.

Lastly, to anyone who thinks that the angelic witnesses are proof that it is Satan who is overseeing the Book of Mormon, I share the lives of those who live by the principles taught in the Book of Mormon. We learn that those things that teach of Christ produce goodness and those things which are of Satan produce the things of the flesh. My own experience shows that the teachings of the Book of Mormon are true in that they produce the fruits of the spirit.

Scriptures from the Book of Mormon:

"Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to p*** the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise."

"For as death hath p***ed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement -- save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more."

"And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel."

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Lastly, to anyone who thinks that the angelic witnesses are proof that it is Satan who is overseeing the Book of Mormon, I share the lives of those who live by the principles taught in the Book of Mormon. We learn that those things that teach of Christ produce goodness and those things which are of Satan produce the things of the flesh. My own experience shows that the teachings of the Book of Mormon are true in that they produce the fruits of the spirit.

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Your life is consistent with the lies of Satan in that you worship false gods, follow a false gospel, and believe that you can become a god/goddess.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Another very interesting series of evidence for the Book of Mormon (a re****al to a critic's video called "The Bible vs Book of Mormon")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPlCu...watch_response

This is a several part series (13, I think) which you can find at the site.

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Before I spend a lot of time watching these videos, do any of them provide one iota of evidence for the existence of Nephites? I have written a review of a lecture of his in the past. PaPa even got him to look at my review. Peterson responded with a snarky, sarcastic remark, did not even bother to address a single comment. His remark was made on the old MADB site.

Again, do any of the videos provide any info on Nephites?

Libby. I just looked at the first part of this series of videos. Ppplleea***ee. The first expert is an attorney named John Welch. At least he admits "We do not have definitive proof yet."
Nice of him to let me know so I will not waste my time chasing "plausible" Mormon theories.

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Originally Posted by jdjhere

Libby, even though you say you are no longer LDS you do seem, at times, to want to defend certain claims and positions of theirs, which is fine, but because of that I will direct my question to you instead because RussianWolfe has not even TRIED to answer it.

Show us proof historically and archeologically that Nephites existed in America (or ANYPLACE for that matter) and I for one will start to take the BOM more seriously.

I watched two of the videos you posted and did not even get CLOSE to an answer for my above question. Could you please tell me which one of these videos answers my question above? Thank you.

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Hi, JD. I am inclined to defend the Book of Mormon, partly, because I have never seen any serious criticism of it. Not being able to, precisely, pinpoint where it took place, doesn't mean it didn't exist, and is not a reason to discount it, IMO. There are a lot of questionable things in the Bible, that people do not discount, so why have a different standard for the Book of Mormon? Plus, there are many things (evidence) in it's favor, such as the Hebraisms, chaism, etc. Plus, just about every point made by critics (no horses, no chariots, no specific grains mentioned, etc) has been proven wrong on almost all counts. You will find that in those last set of videos provided.

Plus, it has been fairly well established that Joseph Smith did not/could not have written this book. Even experts have testified that it has several authors.

On top of that, I had a spiritual witness of it, myself, that I'm not about to deny.

That doesn't mean I believe everything about the church and I can even believe that Joseph may have been a fallen prophet...but, I do still believe that, at least, parts of the Book of Mormon were, somehow, inspired or given by God.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I am inclined to defend the Book of Mormon, partly, because I have never seen any serious criticism of it

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Libby is that some kind of joke? There isn't any evidence for the Nephites living in the Americas. The book of mormon is religious fiction.

Not a joke, Billy, but you are en***led to your opinion.