The Atonement of Jesus Christ---all men--or just a few?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

---

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)

[COLOR="#FF0000"][COLOR="#000000"]
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.




Could anyone explain to us what evidence that "all men" meant just a few men--as we see some here do?

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all the verses that point to that:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

Great. Now lets start at Romans 5:1 and note that Paul starts the verse off with "therefore" which means that he is summing up what he had just talked about in the prior chapter which was justification by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

---

---

We were already having this discussion in another thread--and you failed to follow through in that thread--perhaps you will do so in this one. Here is where we left off.

In Romans 5:1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

We were already having this discussion in another thread--and you failed to follow through in that thread--perhaps you will do so in this one. Here is where we left off.

In Romans 5:1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

---

Whatever you might believe Romans5:1 is referring to--the scriptures state that all men received the free gift--and all men were justified of life:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


What do you disagree with in this scripture? That it really means just a few men instead of all men?



I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV
)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Whatever you might believe Romans5:1 is referring to--the scriptures state that all men received the free gift--and all men were justified of life:

---

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

Are you going to engage in conversation? Can you answer my question or would you like to p***?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

---

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

---

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

[B]2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

---

15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

If you look at verse 15 "those" "themselves" and "who died for them" are referring to believers.

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.

---

Don't worry, Billyray--my tenure on the CARM board don't usually last but a few hours before suspension--even though I post nothing different than than I do here. They frown on any LDS prospering there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

---

I know. Because it states---"all should come to repentance." That defies a limited Atonement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I know. Because it states---"all should come to repentance." That defies a limited Atonement.

---

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

---

So--does that say just some--or that all should come to repentance? Is God willing that any should perish? Is the answer is no--then why would you believe God only died for a few?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--does that say just some--or that all should come to repentance? Is God willing that any should perish? Is the answer is no--then why would you believe God only died for a few?

---

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

This verse says absolutely nothing about limited atonement.

---

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly. Because if Jesus wants ALL of us to repent and come to Him, and if He doesn't want ANY of us to perish, then there's no way He would refuse to pay for the sins of ANY of us. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

And the phrase "God is love" would have to be changed to "God is hate when His feelings about most of the human race is concerned."

I brought some cake into the office for anyone who would like it. Even though I would have been pleased for all to partake only a few did.

Did I provide for all or only those who accepted the gift?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly. Because if Jesus wants ALL of us to repent and come to Him, and if He doesn't want ANY of us to perish, then there's no way He would refuse to pay for the sins of ANY of us. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

And the phrase "God is love" would have to be changed to "God is hate when His feelings about most of the human race is concerned."

---

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all these verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)

[COLOR="#FF0000"][COLOR="#000000"]
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.




Could anyone explain to us what evidence that "all men" meant just a few men--as we see some here do?

---

Are you saying that every person before they die, repents and gets baptized before they die?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacG

I brought some cake into the office for anyone who would like it. Even though I would have been pleased for all to partake only a few did.

Did I provide for all or only those who accepted the gift?

---

You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacG

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

---

Agreed. But the reason they can be judged according to their works--is they had an opportunity to choose and be judged according to their own works. If God had not Atoned for them--they would not ever had had the chance to make choices--it would not make any difference what they did--they would be condemned, period. They would have never had a chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacG

Are you saying that every person before they die, repents and gets baptized before they die?

---

No. What was posted that gave rise to that idea?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It says your version of it is wrong, indirectly.

---

The verses doesn't say anything about limited atonement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacG

But if you choose not not follow:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

---

Exactly. Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved, so if some of us end up not being saved, it's not because Jesus wanted it that way. It's because some of us CHOSE to say "No, thanks" to His offer. Which refutes Billy's idea that Jesus chose to die only for some of the human race. The only way Jesus would have refused to die for some of us, would be if He DIDN'T want some of us to be saved.

So your "Cake" ****ogy, and the scripture you cited above, both show how incorrect Billy's belief is about Jesus and what His desire is toward the human race.

Some Christians say that if you have incorrect beliefs about Jesus, then you have "another" Jesus with "another gospel" and you are therefore not a Christian....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved

---

God doesn't delight in anyone rejecting Him, but if God wanted to save every single person he certainly could do that but we both know that not everyone will be saved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

---

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

God doesn't delight in anyone rejecting Him, but if God wanted to save every single person he certainly could do that but we both know that not everyone will be saved.

---

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

a) Jesus didn't love those people and didn't want them to have a chance at salvation so He refused to atone for their sins.
b) Jesus does love those people and did atone for their sins, but those people refused to do what was necessary to let that atonement help them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

---

Because not everyone chooses to come to Christ.

Now tell me from your point of view why not everyone is saved since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And the reason not everyone will be saved is......??

---

Come on Jeff I answered your question now answer mine. Why doesn't God save every single person since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved" and God certainly has the power to save all of us?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because not everyone chooses to come to Christ.

---

So it's not CHRIST who chooses to save THEM? Since when? Evangelicals have been telling me literally for decades that Christ is the one who takes the first step, and all we are able to do is REACT to that.

You know, the old "We only love Christ because He first loved us" proof text?

Why are you changing the order of events so that you agree with the LDS doctrine that we are able to make choices that God then reacts to, depending on what our choice was?

Quote:

---

Now tell me from your point of view why not everyone is saved since you said "Jesus WANTS all of us to be saved"?

---

How many times must you be told this? To LDS, Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved, so much that He DIED for all of us, and the reason some of us won't be saved is because they will REJECT or IGNORE or FIGHT AGAINST what He did for them.

Just like if someone loves you and wants you to be healthy, so He buys you a nutritious meal, pays for it, and puts it within your reach, but you refuse to eat it, so you die of malnutrition. Can you see how strange it sounds for someone to ask


"But then why does anyone die of malnutrition, if that meal-provider WANTS all of us to eat a healthy meal?"

????

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

---

Matthew 22 "Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----You provided the opportunity for all. If Christ only died for the few--then the rest did not even have an opportunity. Christ provided an opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and justified all men of life. It was a free gift to all mankind--no faith nor acceptance required--Christ and His perfection alone:


Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacG

If I had brought pie, others would have partaken but not the cake people

---

Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So it's not CHRIST who chooses to save THEM? Since when?

---

You asked why isn't everyone saved. Those who are not saved choose not to place their trust in Christ and they are responsible for that choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Why are you changing the order of events so that you agree with the LDS doctrine that we are able to make choices that God then reacts to, depending on what our choice was?

---

We all make choices Jeff and we are all responsible for the choices that we make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

To LDS, Jesus wants all of us to be saved because He LOVES all of us and wants all of us to be saved, so much that He DIED for all of us, and the reason some of us won't be saved is because they will REJECT or IGNORE or FIGHT AGAINST what He did for them.

---

The Mormon Jesus wants everyone to be saved, yet he doesn't save everyone. He must value something else as being more important than saving everyone. He values free will as being more important than salvation. Right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.

---

Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.

Quote:

---

"providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's"

---

I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MacG

Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.

I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

---

I wonder if mormons shag?
dberrie, I have two left feet, you wanta dance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

---

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 4:20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

---

Bump for DB