Love is the needed component.
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Originally Posted by
Columcille
LOL. Bet you don't see within your comments the contradictions.
We SHOULD see something less than 'perfect' consistency in ANY human being (surely including ourselves). Why? Because we ARE HUMAN.
If I went back ANYWHERE and decided that I was here to find some inconsistency/conflict in what you've said or said you believed... I most likely could do it.
And not that you would not "defend" what you believe (as well as others), but that the value (in my belief/opinion) is found in how we handle others, where we see what is human.
You see, we only touch-upon or glance off of 'perfection' (outside of Christ's grace and mercy); we are SURELY NOT the source of any particular perfect thing(s), we are merely a conduit for such perfection. Love is the most perfect component of Christ's love... which we are capable of transmitting or conveying; but it is the most powerful eternal gift we've been afforded (despite religion itself). It's not always easy and it is not merely a feeling; living with it as a 'purpose' proves that to you, as well as motivates you in the same.
The problem with many and how they promote their beliefs, is that they believe and or think religious rules/law are "love". No, love is a VERB not sets of beliefs or words which we place beside 'religion', like some people place items on a shelf (often to collect dust and ultimately become meaningless.
Love is ALIVE and does not exist on a page in a book; and that is why actions speak consistently louder than mere words. You see, a lot of Christians (throughout time) have measure themselves and others using 'religion' (rules, regulations, words)... when all the while (in reality), God and other people have measure their actions and the "effects" of the words they use. That is how the world is affected and actualized overall.
The Bible and other religious books/writings are awesome; but in the hands/mind of various "humans"... they can either be very good or incredibly terrible. For many who are about 'religion'... "LOVE" (1Corintinans 13) certainly is lacking or missing altogether; and I for one, am not drawn to anything like that (it is so often fear, abuse and hatred just waiting to be unleashed). :(
Love, is what matters most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Columcille
As far as Baptists and Catholics are concerned, Hell is the same...
It is of no matter. When someone is seeking "truth", love nevertheless ministers and prevails.
I've seen it countless times; in the face of others-oriented love, religion is WEAK or often meaningless (by comparison).
No, it is not just about love, but love is the GREATEST thing (for me the foundation of any religion I pursue at all). When I lost "faith" in 'religion'... I reached out with hands from my heart, to find something that had meaning that I could connect to. And I'm not ashamed to tell anyone, that it was NOT "Christianity" (the 'religion'), but what I grasped more than ever at that point, was Jesus Christ, the essence of the love which I speak of and endeavor to live by accordingly.
THE most disconcerting thing I face daily, are religious people who by 'force' or social influence of their 'beliefs', think they MUST impose their beliefs in some way(s) upon other human beings. I so often wonder what would happen, if those many hundreds of thousands or millions of people would simply MEET A NEED in another person's life/heart... and then kept that up for a lifetime (within reason and to the best of their ability)... I am almost certain that life for many or most on (even this planet) earth, would improve.
But instead, what is truly "good", has to SLOG its way through the religion which so very often impedes it. I think that Jesus was trying to say that, with His very LIFE. And it was via LOVE, that we even have the opportunity to find religion... and mess that up in His name. Nevertheless, I personally, socially, morally and spiritually have found love to be the most REAL and POWERFUL thing in my life and the live of those I've been graced to touch.
Peace, grace and love to you all, in Christ.
God shopping should start from the general.
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Originally Posted by
asdf
Perhaps. But how to avoid it may be completely different.
Of course it's all just a bit of fun. It just goes to show, though, the absurdity of claiming that the horrors described for non-prac***ioners nor the blessings for followers are somehow arguments in favor of following a religious schema.
Well, Cthulhu is not a very well defined religion at this stage. So as far as pragmatic is concerned, I'd dismiss it for lack of a genuine religious development.
As far as other doctrinal stances of Hell, like the Mormon one, it is better not to become Mormon to avoid their version of Hell. Hence, I gamble no real loss if I do accept their premise.
I am beginning to read St. Bonaventura's "The Mind's Road to God." The introduction talks about three hierarchies of the Neo-Platonism consisting of "logical cl***es," "values," and "reality." In general, this philosophy I think serves a better purpose in our discussion. The reason I am beginning to discuss this here is that the idea of three fusions of heirarchies demonstrates the cl***ification of a being to be greater when it reaches the more ideal or general cl***ification I think can be applied to Pascal's Wager in a modified sense.
Pascal states, "Unity added to infinity does not increase it at all, any more than a foot added to an infinite measurement: The finite is annihilated in the presence of the infinite and becomes pure nothingness. So it is with our mind before God, with our justice before divine justice. There is not so great a disproportion between our justice and God's as between unity and infinity."
Now, in looking through the nonrational observations of the Franciscan Bonaventura, I would state that in our "god-shopping" that it is best to consider both the gamble of the wager in light of that particular god's revealed plan. This type of natural theology is easily accessible to the simple man as much as to the most learned scholar. If it is too complicated for even the simple, than its only real worth is for the elite and does not retain its usefulness. So I think in consideration that it is best not to discuss the particulars of any one cult within the larger cl***ifications. Islam has enough general characteristics within itself that we have no need to distinguish Sunni from Shia; or in Christianity from all the various Protestant sects in its "mere" or "base" form. So Hell and Heaven in Christianity is the same in for both Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant. Mormonism is a relatively new religion on the scene of events and its impact in the last 150 years, while impressive to some degree, is not a major religion from which I would consider necessary for the wager that Pascal is talking about.
Yes, I'm talking about God's Love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Columcille
Love without hope, love with faith, love without awe, love without truth, love without a lot of things is not really love. I'll hold to 1 Cor. 13. I am not sure what message of Christ you espouse, but I prefer to ignore the sappiness of the mediocre. I do not doubt that you love, but I certainly cannot distinguish your parameters. Storge, philo, eros, agape. Is yours really agape, or is it a perversion of philo?
Awediot has it correct; and yes, I'm talking about 'agape' (primarily).
And yes, you have reason to doubt me, but that is why I would point to Christ in ANY case; I'm not THE perfect example of love that Jesus surely was/is.
I'm so close to putting 'religion' behind me, the essence of Jesus is all that I can see, and make real sense of. Indeed, that was painful... it wasn't something I 'sought', it is mainly something that came about... where I believe I was led.
And sure, there are many definitions of "love", but I know that the love which Jesus showed as an living-example, is so much more worth emulating than mere 'religion'. Even so, I respect that we are not ALL in the same place, nor are we the same person; we are individual human beings. Grace is required from one to the other, and I'm motivated to afford others that grace, because I've received it abundantly from Jesus Christ.
I cannot and would not say that God condones sin, but I know that we need to be about the qualities/character of the Spirit of God (Gal. 5). And humbly I contend, that much too often religion is inserted by many as a replacement or subs***ute for the effect of Jesus on The Cross; it has imprisoned and injured MANY people throughout history and is doing so in and about the Church even today.
Many want to come to Christ, but the rightly 'feel' that those who are religious have prohibited them from doing so. Still, I know for a fact, that NO HUMAN can keep one from the mercy, grace and love of God. Many will not meet sinners where/as they are, but Jesus surely can/will. That is the difference between many followers or the religious, and Christ Himself; and I always hope and pray that many realize it in their lifetime.
Yes, I'm talking about a love that religion cannot and never has matched.