How about this question soms, I say that Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". He said, "no one comes to the Father (God) but by Me".
Tell me why you think He didn't mean what He said please. :D
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How about this question soms, I say that Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". He said, "no one comes to the Father (God) but by Me".
Tell me why you think He didn't mean what He said please. :D
Just wanted to make sure you referenced the quote. John 14.6 states:Quote:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14. 21 states the following:
"Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
I think Jesus means what he says. He is the only way to the Father. In saying this, I think verse 21 applies to those very people mentioned in Romans 2.12-16:
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
This is possible because they are able, without the law or even the knowledge of Christ and his Gospel, find in Romans 1.18-20 the principles of natural revelation:
18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
yes of course sayso! :DQuote:
thanks for starting this for me.
and that is probably the perfect place to start.
certainly the first one always laid on the table in the matter of exclusitivity, and Christianity.
I believe that Jesus life...His teachings..were in fact the way, the truth, and the life.
To follow Him, take up His cross....
is to do what He says...to hear His voice, follow His commands.
become servants of God, and mankind.
Love God with all our hearts and souls and minds
and love our neighbor as ourselves.
Love even our enemies.
Bless those who curse us...
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless...
walk in comp***ion to all those around us , being a good neighbor...
and shine our light...the LOVE of God so that others will be drawn into the kingdom also. I believe we are to walk...as He did, follow Him,...and follow His commands.
with love,
soms
If Jesus' teachings were all that was required, he never would have had to suffer and die on the cross. Wouldn't you agree? He would of just sent another Prophet if that's all it was.
no...why would He "just send another"...if He was willing to live and die...that we may know of His willingness...He led by example. He was willing to give His very life and face even death..on the cross...that all might know of Him.Quote:
He was willing to live the very words...He spoke...
"There is no greater love than this, that a man be willing to lay down His life for a friend"
"Bless those who persecute you"
even as He faced death...He prayed forgiveness on all who slay Him.
Yes these are a few verses.Quote:
Just wanted to make sure you referenced the quote. John 14.6 states:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14. 21 states the following:
"Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
First we need to understand what "law" Paul is talking about that these people keep. Romans is all about the Jewish law and whether or not it is profitable to try to be righteous through one's own works. There are I believe some where over 600 laws, starting with the first 10 given to Moses by God.Quote:
I think Jesus means what he says. He is the only way to the Father. In saying this, I think verse 21 applies to those very people mentioned in Romans 2.12-16:
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
The first commandment is: "Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me". The Me it speaks of is the Word of God Who became flesh and dwelt amongst us, Jesus.
So while someone is kind and he lives what mankind considers a good life, if that same man chooses another way to God he is in fact disobeying the law.
Continuing through the book of Romans you find that Paul was not advocating that someone can be saved by performing the law alone. His message is justification and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross that we are saved by grace. So I don't believe that here in chapter 2 he is saying that there are actually those who will be saved by doing the works of the law apart from knowing Jesus.
Quote:
This is possible because they are able, without the law or even the knowledge of Christ and his Gospel, find in Romans 1.18-20 the principles of natural revelation:
18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
I think that if you continue reading from Romans 1 there are a few more verses that you need to read which make it clearer who these folks were that Paul was talking about.
These people that Paul is talking about in this context were not unbelievers who hadn't heard the gospel. They were people who had believed and turned aways after other gods in unbelief. As verse 21 says "they knew and recognized Him as God". And when you continue reading through the rest of the chapter you find that their end is not a good one.
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],
25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).
My point was, we aren't saved because Jesus came and gave an example. We're saved by his blood that he shed as a sacrifice for sins. Jesus didn't come to be a great teacher, he came to die on the cross for you and me.
What would be your argument, Leslie, against a possibility of a highly educated (former Pharisee like) Paul having poetically clothed the climax of Jesus' life in language which fit nicely into the antecedent Hebrew understanding of God's injunctions toward them?? Is there not ample precedent for a (somewhat promiscuous) emplyment of "poetic License" demonstrated throughout the Old Testament?Quote:
ys,
bmd.
I would say it's madness.
You don't go around claiming to worship a jew who died on a cross for the sins of the world if you didn't really believe that. Paul even remarks that it was scandelous to preach such a thing to jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.
He would have just said "Jesus was a good man who came to show us the right path to righteousness, but was killed before his time. We must follow in his footsteps if we are to become as he was."
That's preaching a works based salvation, which is not about repentence at all, but penence. The prophet Isaiah said that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. The writer of Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission for sin.
So, that's my answer. If you take away the sacrifice, all you're left with is a jewish rabbi who was killed on the cross and is dead, and it would be foolish to worship just another "good teacher" And you would still be left in your sins.
What would be your argument, bmd against the possibility of God wanting to reconcile the world He created to Himself, and doing it in His Own Way? And those who accept His way, truth, and life are reconciled to Him.Quote:
What would be your argument, Leslie, against a possibility of a highly educated (former Pharisee like) Paul having poetically clothed the climax of Jesus' life in language which fit nicely into the antecedent Hebrew understanding of God's injunctions toward them?? Is there not ample precedent for a (somewhat promiscuous) emplyment of "poetic License" demonstrated throughout the Old Testament?
ys,
bmd.
Of course Paul wrote with Hebrew understanding. It is the Jews to whom salvation was first offered, and then to the gentiles. There is no conflict concerning Jesus' being the only way to God and Paul being Jewish. Jesus is the Messiah. Everyone who is "in" Christ understands that The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is the same "I AM" that came to earth and dwelt among men, Jesus.
The only difference here is whether or not one believes (not in) God and believes that the Bible is His word spoken to us. One either believes that or does not. I believe that God allows all men to believe Him or not. It's been going on since the garden of Eden, some believing Him and some not.
God spoke to Adam and Eve, then along came the serpent and said, "did God say....?" and immediately they chose to believe something else other than what God said.
Quote:
What would be your argument, bmd against the possibility of God wanting to reconcile the world He created to Himself, and doing it in His Own Way? And those who accept His way, truth, and life are reconciled to Him.
Of course Paul wrote with Hebrew understanding. It is the Jews to whom salvation was first offered, and then to the gentiles. There is no conflict concerning Jesus' being the only way to God and Paul being Jewish. Jesus is the Messiah. Everyone who is "in" Christ understands that The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is the same "I AM" that came to earth and dwelt among men, Jesus.
The only difference here is whether or not one believes (not in) God and believes that the Bible is His word spoken to us. One either believes that or does not. I believe that God allows all men to believe Him or not. It's been going on since the garden of Eden, some believing Him and some not.
God spoke to Adam and Eve, then along came the serpent and said, "did God say....?" and immediately they chose to believe something else other than what God said.
i have no argument, sayso, against your personal election (as well as that of many other fundamentalists) to view poetry on the same platform as established historical fact. In fact, all the world's great religions seem to claim that as a common theme (though clothed in different figures, and varying according to different times, places and circumstances): that Love of which all mundane expressions serve as but dim reflections, and is Personal,insatiable, and without beginning of days or end of years...........
ys,
bmd.
Other religions may claim to serve the only God and may teach love, but Christianity is different in at least this one point; Through Christ God reaches out to mankind and provides the sacrifice once for all who will accept it and believe God. That means that if you live your whole life as a godless sinner and at the hour before your death see the error of your own ways and are sincerely sorry, repent and ask forgiveness, you will get it. No being sent back to try harder next time. You get one try in this lifeQuote:
i have no argument, sayso, against your personal election (as well as that of many other fundamentalists) to view poetry on the same platform as established historical fact. In fact, all the world's great religions seem to claim that as a common theme (though clothed in different figures, and varying according to different times, places and circumstances): that Love of which all mundane expressions serve as but dim reflections, and is Personal,insatiable, and without beginning of days or end of years...........
ys,
bmd.
Other religions teach that if you live a good life and do well enough to please God you'll be accepted. Some teach that if you mess up this time then you'll come back again and have more chances until you finally get it right. Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ laid down His life so that we might live and become what God intended for us when He created mankind; that we might know God and the One He sent and be like Him.
You may not see the Bible as historical or truth but it is. That is why I say that it is a matter of believing God and not believing in God. The demons believe in God and shudder.
And the truth is that Jesus (Who is God) loves you no matter whether you believe what He said or not. It is not a matter of whether He loves you, it is a matter of Him offering the gift of life to you and whether or not you choose to receive that gift.
You're speaking of a conditional love here, sayso: "Get your heart right with God in this life, and if you don't, you'll burn in hell forever."Quote:
Other religions may claim to serve the only God and may teach love, but Christianity is different in at least this one point; Through Christ God reaches out to mankind and provides the sacrifice once for all who will accept it and believe God. That means that if you live your whole life as a godless sinner and at the hour before your death see the error of your own ways and are sincerely sorry, repent and ask forgiveness, you will get it. No being sent back to try harder next time. You get one try in this life
i submit to you as my opinion, that there is a Higher Love, that Forgives as often as the sinner will repent and appeal to God's Mercy to place him back on the track, and also offers limitless opportunities for this repentance. Every imaginable sin an individual can commit covers an expression of the basic human need for Love, manifesting itself in multifaceted degrees of distortion. A "god" who arbitrarily limits himself" to the fulfillment of a certain "allotment of grace" to each individual is too whimsical to warrant much attention from any.
ys,
bmd.
No, not conditional love. His love for us is unconditional, and He loves even those who will not listen and receive Him. It is not He who decides but each person who chooses. You ***ume that because a person reaps the consequences of his own actions that God does not love him unconditionally.Quote:
Here is an example: There is a child who is loved by his father with all of his heart. The child has been kidnapped by an evil man taken to a far away land, and forced into slavery. The father then sends his son to make payment so that his child may be bought and freed from slavery so that he may come home. The son who bought the child back from slavery says to him, "follow me, I will get you home." Now the child is free to go home, but he doesn't know the way home or how to get there on his own. There are many now telling him this is the way or that is the way. But there is only one road that goes home and if he doesn't follow his brother he will not get there, no matter how much his father loves him.
I submit to you as my opinion, that God is that Higher Love, that forgives as many times as the sinner repents and He also cleanses us from all unrighteousness.Quote:
i submit to you as my opinion, that there is a Higher Love, that Forgives as often as the sinner will repent and appeal to God's Mercy to place him back on the track, and also offers limitless opportunities for this repentance. Every imaginable sin an individual can commit covers an expression of the basic human need for Love, manifesting itself in multifaceted degrees of distortion. A "god" who arbitrarily limits himself" to the fulfillment of a certain "allotment of grace" to each individual is too whimsical to warrant much attention from any.
ys,
bmd.
It is not God who limits Himself but man who limits Him. Because God is love. We make gods for ourselves when we try to determine what love truly is. Is it unloving to allow a child the freedom to chose his own road after you have warned him that if he goes the wrong way he will wind up in the wrong place?
perhaps...perhaps i have gone off me rocker...:DQuote:
I would say it's madness.
You don't go around claiming to worship a jew who died on a cross for the sins of the world if you didn't really believe that. Paul even remarks that it was scandelous to preach such a thing to jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.
He would have just said "Jesus was a good man who came to show us the right path to righteousness, but was killed before his time. We must follow in his footsteps if we are to become as he was."
That's preaching a works based salvation, which is not about repentence at all, but penence. The prophet Isaiah said that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. The writer of Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission for sin.
So, that's my answer. If you take away the sacrifice, all you're left with is a jewish rabbi who was killed on the cross and is dead, and it would be foolish to worship just another "good teacher" And you would still be left in your sins.
at some point on this journey Leslie...this is exactly what i ran into.
The struggle that this blood sacrifice atones for some...not all...
and were not talkin bout just bald out evil people...but those who have not "heard'...cultures and religions all over the world from the beginning until now.
the select few who happen to "hear" the correct and one and only truth...
get the ticket.
i can't swallow that any more.
for one...i can't take a ticket , i cannot find pleasure in my own salvation, when so many others are lost and dying. and I find it very hard to believe in a God...who has less fairness and comp***ion than a teensy human nothingness like myself.
Call me mad and foolish, but I do love and worship Jesus, without thinking that his blood was a sacrifice...of the sort you mean. I do believe it was the ultimate sacrifice, willingness to give His life that others may become awakened to who God is. He was willing to lay down his entire physical being...and demonstrate with His very life and death the Greatest love of all.
I humbly bow at His feet, and offer my life and service to learn of this great love, and hope to reflect it...with every ounce of my being, at whatever cost it takes.
with love,
soms
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
God has ways of reaching people, he can speak to people personally, he can send angels, or send missionaries. It's to imagine, but the greater number of people are going to go to hell. Jesus said that broad was the path that leads to destruction and many would go therein.
That's why we have to do our best to spread the gospel to as many people as we can. Go out into the highways and the hedges, and spread the good news. Those that are out in the middle of nowhere, God can still reach. Have faith in that.
The problem with your thinking dearest soms is that there has not been nor will there ever be not even one person that does not have the chance to hear and choose for themselves. Even all those who lived and died before Jesus have had this gospel preached to them. There are none who have not heard, nor none who will not hear it.Quote:
perhaps...perhaps i have gone off me rocker...:D
at some point on this journey Leslie...this is exactly what i ran into.
The struggle that this blood sacrifice atones for some...not all...
and were not talkin bout just bald out evil people...but those who have not "heard'...cultures and religions all over the world from the beginning until now.
the select few who happen to "hear" the correct and one and only truth...
get the ticket.
i can't swallow that any more.
for one...i can't take a ticket , i cannot find pleasure in my own salvation, when so many others are lost and dying. and I find it very hard to believe in a God...who has less fairness and comp***ion than a teensy human nothingness like myself.
Call me mad and foolish, but I do love and worship Jesus, without thinking that his blood was a sacrifice...of the sort you mean. I do believe it was the ultimate sacrifice, willingness to give His life that others may become awakened to who God is. He was willing to lay down his entire physical being...and demonstrate with His very life and death the Greatest love of all.
I humbly bow at His feet, and offer my life and service to learn of this great love, and hope to reflect it...with every ounce of my being, at whatever cost it takes.
with love,
soms
No true Christian feels good at the thought of others lost and dying, but will our own unbelief and denial of the truth keep them from that fate? It is as Leslie said, we must go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come. We must pray and intercede for them daily.
God is not unjust, unfair or without comp***ion as you have imagined. :confused:
Matthew 24:14
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
i agree. I just believe that God has used the various cultures and religions all over the world to do so. Having occasionally to manifest Himself in deeper ways. I would be interested in how you believe this happens though.Quote:
The problem with your thinking dearest soms is that there has not been nor will there ever be not even one person that does not have the chance to hear and choose for themselves. Even all those who lived and died before Jesus have had this gospel preached to them. There are none who have not heard, nor none who will not hear it.
(for instance Native americans...before christ , back jungles..., etc.)
when viewing the "ONE and only Version of the TRUTH" with such a scope of elitism..i fear that we are faced with an arrogance, when we readily claim all others "truth"...,holy books, prayers, etc...to be worthless, and evil....
I see Christians say that you must open your heart, be open minded...
(to get away from all the "false" religions and cults...)
but...we ourselves would never be so...."openminded" with their holy books,
and beliefs and prayers, and customs.
i don't just not feel good about it...it is unacceptable.Quote:
No true Christian feels good at the thought of others lost and dying, but will our own unbelief and denial of the truth keep them from that fate? It is as Leslie said, we must go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come. We must pray and intercede for them daily.
by all means we must shine a light of love so all may be drawn to the flame...
YES....but what if we see this love...coming from someone of another faith?
what does that mean? how can they have it?
in order to believe that it is christianity ONLY that gives us peace that p***es understanding, the ability to walk in sacrificial love, (God's love)
and be filled with the fruit of the spirit.....
one must walk in cognitive dissonance. one must blind oneself to others.
(the truth) imho.
not my imagination...my understanding of the exclusitivity (and elitism) of christianityQuote:
God is not unjust, unfair or without comp***ion as you have imagined. :confused:
[/quote]Quote:
Matthew 24:14
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
i will say the beginning of my questioning began with verse 1 john 4:7-8
and the question of how good fruit can grow on a rotten tree...or vice versa.
with love,
soms
........and why do you call "madness" one's preference to view this "shedding of blood" as allegorical expression of sacrifice ("till it hurts") rather than a series of collectively expressed physical processes?
ys,
bmd.
Soms,
I'm not ignoring you. I will read and consider your answer later. But it may take a little while. I have been up since 1:30 A.M. this morning and didn't get to sleep until around 11:00 P.M. last night. I work in retail and we are working long hours and extra days so I am exhausted. I will reply when I've had the opportunity to catch up on my sleep and pray about it.
There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?Quote:
Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?
The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.
Luke 7:18-20
John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"
Trinity
take your time sayso...no worries...:)Quote:
Soms,
I'm not ignoring you. I will read and consider your answer later. But it may take a little while. I have been up since 1:30 A.M. this morning and didn't get to sleep until around 11:00 P.M. last night. I work in retail and we are working long hours and extra days so I am exhausted. I will reply when I've had the opportunity to catch up on my sleep and pray about it.
with love,
soms
this was worded very interestingly Trinity...:)Quote:
There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?
The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.
Luke 7:18-20
John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"
Trinity
but i would like a bit of further clarification...(if you don't mind..)
to say that we can know God without knowing Jesus...
But can we be "saved" without knowing Jesus...and probably then we would need to define...."saved" :)
thank you very much for your response,
with love,
soms
Hello sunofmysoul,
I will return the question in a different way.Quote:
For all the Jews not converted from the first century, throughout the centuries, and until this day, can we say that they are all lost without any exception, not even one sole exception? Children of the holocaust, parents, grandparents, the victims of the christian anti-semitism, etc?
If yes, now why the christian evangelists are still calling them, "the people of God", and why they are giving of their money to support the State of Israel politically? In brief, why they are so in love with people that God is ****ing.
Like Paul I prefer to say that this is a mystery than to **** any Jew, from any time and from any place and from any condition.
Romans 11:25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
If this blindness is willingly caused by the master-plan of God , how he can **** them? In brief, I am believing into a fair God, and not into a cruel God.
Trinity
a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...:D)
CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).
In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)
Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."
Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).
Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).
Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).
Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)
This is a good definition of "Autosoterism" - i.e. Man "Saves himself" through his OWN "Good works".
It has NOTHING to do with what Jesus was about, though, and will lead only to failure and death.
Absolutely. Unless one repents of his sin, places His Faith in the shed blood of Jesus for his salvation, "Dies" to his old life, and rises again in Jesus' life, he's lost REGARDLESS of what "philosophy" he holds.
Jesus didn't come to SHOW the way, and any religious system that sees Him as a "teacher, or Philosopher, doesn't HAVE A CLUE about what Jesus was all about or what His purpose was.
Jesus came to BE the way - means of conveyance - into eternal life - as in: A Car is "the WAY" to get to Chicago. Jesus is "the WAY" to salvation.
Soms,Quote:
i agree. I just believe that God has used the various cultures and religions all over the world to do so. Having occasionally to manifest Himself in deeper ways. I would be interested in how you believe this happens though.
(for instance Native americans...before christ , back jungles..., etc.)
when viewing the "ONE and only Version of the TRUTH" with such a scope of elitism..i fear that we are faced with an arrogance, when we readily claim all others "truth"...,holy books, prayers, etc...to be worthless, and evil....
I see Christians say that you must open your heart, be open minded...
(to get away from all the "false" religions and cults...)
but...we ourselves would never be so...."openminded" with their holy books,
and beliefs and prayers, and customs.
I do not believe that you are agreeing with me. What I stated is that "all will have be presented with an opportunity to either accept or reject Christ. Then I quoted where the scripture says that He (Christ) went and preached to the spirits of all those who have ever lived and died on this earth and gave each one a chance to accept or reject Him. Not some form of Him. He either has or will "as Jesus Christ" appear to every soul who ever lives.
God's truth is not based on what some other "Christians" may say or even do, for there are many who will come in that day and say, "Lord, Lord" to Jesus. He will say, "depart from Me I never knew You."
God's word says there is One mediator between man and God.
1 Timothy 2
3 For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,
4 Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.
And He didn't indicate that He would appear in many forms through many types of religion.
Our own feelings are not a good way to enter into a contract or agreement. And that is exactly what our acceptance or rejection of God and His Word is. God made a covenant and sealed with His own blood. We are never told to follow our own feelings. Many of our feelings lead us to seek out our own desires and p***ions. I can not use my feelings to decide whether or not I will love and serve God. I can not make my own judgments of God as to whether or not He is being fair.Quote:
i don't just not feel good about it...it is unacceptable.
by all means we must shine a light of love so all may be drawn to the flame...
YES....but what if we see this love...coming from someone of another faith?
what does that mean? how can they have it?
in order to believe that it is christianity ONLY that gives us peace that p***es understanding, the ability to walk in sacrificial love, (God's love)
and be filled with the fruit of the spirit.....
one must walk in cognitive dissonance. one must blind oneself to others.
(the truth) imho.
not my imagination...my understanding of the exclusitivity (and elitism) of christianity
Your words which I made red above are a misunderstanding of what I believe. Christianity never saved anyone. Christianity never changed anyone. Christianity never gave anyone peace that p***es all understanding or the ability to walk in sacrificial love.
It is GOD through JESUS Who saves and changes people. It is GOD through Christ dwelling in our hearts Who gives the peace that p***es all understanding. And it is GOD through Jesus empowering us by the Holy Spirit so that we might walk in His ways and not our own.
NO RELIGION, even CHRISTIANITY can do that. I believe, adhere to, cling to, and follow Christ to the laying down of my own life. The early followers of Christ were called Christians. That is why the world has named "The Church" Christianity. I know no other than God and His Son, Jesus Christ. I am a follower of Him not religion. There are many who are believers in Christianity instead of the True God but I am not one of them.
There may be many following other religions who follow after their own beliefs in the same way I follow Christ. But they are not following after Christ under another name or in another form. That is my point.
I think there may be a big difference in what God considers good fruit and bad fruit and what you and I might consider good fruit.Quote:
But in either case even if these people are producing good fruit that brings up the teaching of salvation through "grace" alone. No one has ever been saved through Christ by good works. So perhaps that is just one more difference between a follower of Christ and another who believes they are in agreement with the Gospel of Christ under a different religion. Others get to God by their good works, followers of Christ are saved by faith through grace.
John was in prison waiting for his decapitation when he sent his follower to ask this question. It's no surprise that he might have a moment of doubt. Trinity here's Jesus' answer to John the Baptist's question. His answer is a better indication of the truth of this question than John's question.Quote:
There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?
The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.
Luke 7:18-20
John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"
Trinity
Matthew 11
1 WHEN JESUS had finished His charge to His twelve disciples, He left there to teach and to preach in their [Galilean] cities.
2 Now when John in prison heard about the activities of Christ, he sent a message by his disciples
3 And asked Him, Are You the One Who was to come, or should we keep on expecting a different one?
4 And Jesus replied to them, Go and report to John what you hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed (by healing) and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up and the poor have good news (the Gospel) preached to them.
6 And blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) is he who takes no offense at Me and finds no cause for stumbling in or through Me and is not hindered from seeing the Truth.
They were Jewish. These things had been prophesied to happen and they were looking for "the One" who would fulfill these prophecies. Jesus clearly was saying that He is the One.
Quote:
a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...:D)
CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).
In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)
Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."
Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).
Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).
Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).
Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)
soms,
this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.
Paul said that if even he himself or an angel preached another gospel they are accursed.
Galatians 1
6 I am surprised and astonished that you are so quickly turning renegade and deserting Him Who invited and called you by the grace (unmerited favor) of Christ (the Messiah) [and that you are transferring your allegiance] to a different [even an opposition] gospel.
7 Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but there are [obviously] some who are troubling and disturbing and bewildering you [with a different kind of teaching which they offer as a gospel] and want to pervert and distort the Gospel of Christ (the Messiah) [into something which it absolutely is not].
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
9 As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
10 Now am I trying to win the favor of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ (the Messiah).
11 For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man's gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard].
12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through a [direct] revelation [given] by Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
The most important thing for a christian is about what should be our at***ude when we consider a teaching a heresy. A heresy is not something that is totally false but something that is twisted or embellished.Quote:
this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.
When Jesus had met a Samaritan woman they discussed on where to worship God. The best site. On a mountain or at the temple. For the Jews, Samaritans were heretics because they worshiped God like the Fathers (patriarchs), on a mountain. However, the Jews followed the ins***ution founded by Solomon. At the temple.
Both sides were correct according to the sacred texts they were referring too. Anyway, Jesus came with a third way. You should worship God in spirit and within the truth.
Even heretics can believe truthful things. This is why some atheists are more wise and have more wisdom than many christians. I met some men and also some women who were not christians, and they were much better men and women, than many christians that I met (more mature). There is some christians that have not this problem with heresies but they certainly have a problem with their fanatical at***ude. And this is very ugly, this is in a total discordance with the character of Jesus.
Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.
James 2:13
For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.
Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.
Trinity
Trinity,
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. First you write that anyone (indicating me, since you were replying to my post) that is irritated by your post or that of someone else is on the wrong track. You have ***umed that because I disagree with other's posts or yours that I am irritated by those posts and accuse me of being off track.
Next when I ask you who is the judge of another's heart, then you accuse me of judging who is irritated while it is you who made the statement. :confused:
I probably can guarantee that I am not going to agree with every post regardless of who posts it. It doesn't bother me nor irritate me, I simply see it another way.
I am sorry that it bothers you for me to believe as I do. If you expect me to agree with everything that everyone posts I think that it is very unlikely, and that I am not going to meet your expectations.
Furthermore, this thread is in the Apologetics (Defending the Faith) forum.
Apologists are those known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations. The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), meaning a speaking in defense.
The term Apologist applies especially to early Christian writers who took on the task of recommending their faith to outsiders.
What would you expect to see happening in the Apologetics forum?
Hello Sayso,
I had only commented an extract from your post and I did not want to point my finger in your direction. It was a general comment, good for you, for me, and for all.Quote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. First you write that anyone (indicating me, since you were replying to my post) that is irritated by your post or that of someone else is on the wrong track. You have ***umed that because I disagree with other's posts or yours that I am irritated by those posts and accuse me of being off track.
Next when I ask you who is the judge of another's heart, then you accuse me of judging who is irritated while it is you who made the statement. :confused:
After, you questioned me about who I think is well positioned to judge the heart, I said that it was you. This is your heart after all. Same thing with me. I have to observe my heart and the emotions produced by this center of the self, particularly the bad heart. The bad heart has this need to be tamed. He is wild. The good heart is inclined naturally to the kindness. We have two hearts. The good heart and the bad heart. The goal is the acquisition of a pure heart.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.
Until now I have a good opinion about you and I have no reason to change my mind.
Trinity
I am sorry that I misunderstood you Trinity, please forgive me.Quote:
Hello Sayso,
I had only commented an extract from your post and I did not want to point my finger in your direction. It was a general comment, good for you, for me, and for all.
After, you questioned me about who I think is well positioned to judge the heart, I said that it was you. This is your heart after all. Same thing with me. I have to observe my heart and the emotions produced by this center of the self, particularly the bad heart. The bad heart has this need to be tamed. He is wild. The good heart is inclined naturally to the kindness. We have two hearts. The good heart and the bad heart. The goal is the acquisition of a pure heart.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.
Until now I have a good opinion about you and I have no reason to change my mind.
Trinity
Yes it is my heart but God says "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
I would rather it be God who judges my heart. I don't trust myself. I, like David have learned to pray, Search me , O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Thanks for explaining.
No problem sayso. :)Quote:
I am sorry that I misunderstood you Trinity, please forgive me.
Yes it is my heart but God says "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
I would rather it be God who judges my heart. I don't trust myself. I, like David have learned to pray, Search me , O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Thanks for explaining.
The bad heart is deceitful , but not the good heart. This is why we need to listen our emotions and motivations and discern between the bad heart and the good heart.
Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.'
Even if he is twisted our bad heart is tamed to love God. This is our responsibility to love God with our full heart. The bad one who is tamed and the good one who is containing the spark of God into the human being.
It is impossible to love God with all our heart if we do not trust our heart. This is an important part of the spirituality to monitor our inner man.
A pure heart is a heart with no bad heart anymore. The good heart will ***imilated the bad heart to become a pure heart. God can not do this without our participation. This is why we have to monitor our negative emotions or bad motivations.
Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
Trinity
yes..that is an interesting verse....i often wondered in my youth (being fascinated with the whole time continuum thingy...if that "moment" of preaching...could have transcended time (as we know it) and been the moment when everyone dies...past present and future....:):DQuote:
Soms,
I do not believe that you are agreeing with me. What I stated is that "all will have be presented with an opportunity to either accept or reject Christ. Then I quoted where the scripture says that He (Christ) went and preached to the spirits of all those who have ever lived and died on this earth and gave each one a chance to accept or reject Him. Not some form of Him. He either has or will "as Jesus Christ" appear to every soul who ever lives.
yes..and this is one of the main verses that gets me....Quote:
God's truth is not based on what some other "Christians" may say or even do, for there are many who will come in that day and say, "Lord, Lord" to Jesus. He will say, "depart from Me I never knew You."
the parable of the sheep and the goats...
for he says that some will not even recognize that what they had done...had been done unto Him....(bringing to mind the quote from The Last Battle...by cs.Lewis "He answered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account a sservice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."
and the thing we see separating the sheep from the goats...
is what they DID and Didn't do......
no...perhaps not...but that wouldn't necessarily negate the idea...because it was NOT mentioned...imho...Quote:
God's word says there is One mediator between man and God.
1 Timothy 2
3 For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,
4 Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
5 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.
And He didn't indicate that He would appear in many forms through many types of religion.
keeping in mind that we see through a gl*** darkly for the moment.....
i appreciate this sayso....Quote:
Our own feelings are not a good way to enter into a contract or agreement. And that is exactly what our acceptance or rejection of God and His Word is. God made a covenant and sealed with His own blood. We are never told to follow our own feelings. Many of our feelings lead us to seek out our own desires and p***ions. I can not use my feelings to decide whether or not I will love and serve God. I can not make my own judgments of God as to whether or not He is being fair.
Your words which I made red above are a misunderstanding of what I believe. Christianity never saved anyone. Christianity never changed anyone. Christianity never gave anyone peace that p***es all understanding or the ability to walk in sacrificial love.
It is GOD through JESUS Who saves and changes people. It is GOD through Christ dwelling in our hearts Who gives the peace that p***es all understanding. And it is GOD through Jesus empowering us by the Holy Spirit so that we might walk in His ways and not our own.
NO RELIGION, even CHRISTIANITY can do that. I believe, adhere to, cling to, and follow Christ to the laying down of my own life. The early followers of Christ were called Christians. That is why the world has named "The Church" Christianity. I know no other than God and His Son, Jesus Christ. I am a follower of Him not religion. There are many who are believers in Christianity instead of the True God but I am not one of them.
There may be many following other religions who follow after their own beliefs in the same way I follow Christ. But they are not following after Christ under another name or in another form. That is my point.
thank you sayso, i truly appreciate the time and effort you are putting into sharing with me...Quote:
I think there may be a big difference in what God considers good fruit and bad fruit and what you and I might consider good fruit.
But in either case even if these people are producing good fruit that brings up the teaching of salvation through "grace" alone. No one has ever been saved through Christ by good works. So perhaps that is just one more difference between a follower of Christ and another who believes they are in agreement with the Gospel of Christ under a different religion. Others get to God by their good works, followers of Christ are saved by faith through grace.
i do have many questions on the "grace" alone concept...also...:D
with love,
soms
It is believed that Jesus preached to those who had lived and died before His time, after he died on the cross and before He resurrected.Quote:
yes..that is an interesting verse....i often wondered in my youth (being fascinated with the whole time continuum thingy...if that "moment" of preaching...could have transcended time (as we know it) and been the moment when everyone dies...past present and future....
My understanding is that when Jesus spoke of the sheep and goats it was in regard to judging the "nations" of the world and not individuals. And the judgment is regarding how those nations treat Israel. There are many nations who hate Israel and would like nothing more than to wipe it from existence. There are many more who will stand by and watch and do nothing to help Israel when they are set upon.Quote:
yes..and this is one of the main verses that gets me....
the parable of the sheep and the goats...
for he says that some will not even recognize that what they had done...had been done unto Him....(bringing to mind the quote from The Last Battle...by cs.Lewis "He answered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account a sservice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."
and the thing we see separating the sheep from the goats...
is what they DID and Didn't do......
I have a problem with reading into something that is not there. To me that is kind of like a child who is told that he may have some cookies saying, "well dad didn't say we shouldn't eat the whole bag of cookies so....":D I think that's human nature to try and find a loop hole that allows us to do as we think is best.Quote:
Mark 13
21 And then if anyone says to you, See, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, Look, there He is! do not believe it.
22 False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself).
There are many other statements that Jesus made that taken together show that He is clearly saying He is the Only One, the Only Way and we are not to look for a different way or a different person or different Messiah. This is just one such statement.
John 10
1 I ***URE you, most solemnly I tell you, he who does not enter by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way (elsewhere, from some other quarter) is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The watchman opens the door for this man, and the sheep listen to his voice and heed it; and he calls his own sheep by name and brings (leads) them out.
4 When he has brought his own sheep outside, he walks on before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 They will never [on any account] follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not know the voice of strangers or recognize their call.
6 Jesus used this parable (illustration) with them, but they did not understand what He was talking about.
7 So Jesus said again, I ***ure you, most solemnly I tell you, that I Myself am the Door for the sheep.
8 All others who came [as such] before Me are thieves and robbers, but the [true] sheep did not listen to and obey them.
9 I am the Door; anyone who enters in through Me will be saved (will live). He will come in and he will go out [freely], and will find pasture.
10 The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it [b]overflows).
11 I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd risks and lays down His [own] life for the sheep.
12 But the hired servant (he who merely serves for wages) who is neither the shepherd nor the owner of the sheep, when he sees the wolf coming, deserts the flock and runs away. And the wolf chases and snatches them and scatters [the flock].
13 Now the hireling flees because he merely serves for wages and is not himself concerned about the sheep [cares nothing for them].
14 I am the Good Shepherd; and I know and recognize My own, and My own know and recognize Me--
15 Even as [truly as] the Father knows Me and I also know the Father--and I am giving My [very own] life and laying it down on behalf of the sheep.
16 And I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring and impel those also; and they will listen to My voice and heed My call, and so there will be [they will become] one flock under one Shepherd.
17 For this [reason] the Father loves Me, because I lay down My [own] life--to take it back again.
18 No one takes it away from Me. On the contrary, I lay it down voluntarily. [I put it from Myself.] I am authorized and have power to lay it down (to resign it) and I am authorized and have power to take it back again. These are the instructions (orders) which I have received [as My charge] from My Father.
Quote:
soms,
I am enjoying our conversation. I believe that you understand that this is not about us forcing our beliefs upon one another but listening and attempting to understanding each other and why we believe what we do. I appreciate you! There are not many who can like someone who disagrees with them and says so. :D Personally I believe that to expect that everyone in this whole world would agree on every issue is and unreal expectation. So I don't.
And we can also have a discussion about grace alone but it probably should be under the Salvation forum.
What Paul is showing is a progression. Not all the people he addresses are in the final stages. As it, the verses I gave show a natural tendency of knowing God in part through his creation. It is only by the education of the adults that we loose the awe inspiration of something greater behind creation. In essence, we loose our innocence and repress that which would make us whole. Romans 1.32 shows how they encourage such wicked behavior by their "hearty approval." Also, you must notice in the p***age I gave in Romans 1 that they knew God and his attributes through his creation and not the Torah or Law. Nobody is excusable since with or without the Law, they can see him in his creation.Quote:
First we need to understand what "law" Paul is talking about that these people keep. Romans is all about the Jewish law and whether or not it is profitable to try to be righteous through one's own works. There are I believe some where over 600 laws, starting with the first 10 given to Moses by God.
The first commandment is: "Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me". The Me it speaks of is the Word of God Who became flesh and dwelt amongst us, Jesus.
So while someone is kind and he lives what mankind considers a good life, if that same man chooses another way to God he is in fact disobeying the law.
Continuing through the book of Romans you find that Paul was not advocating that someone can be saved by performing the law alone. His message is justification and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross that we are saved by grace. So I don't believe that here in chapter 2 he is saying that there are actually those who will be saved by doing the works of the law apart from knowing Jesus.
I think that if you continue reading from Romans 1 there are a few more verses that you need to read which make it clearer who these folks were that Paul was talking about.
These people that Paul is talking about in this context were not unbelievers who hadn't heard the gospel. They were people who had believed and turned aways after other gods in unbelief. As verse 21 says "they knew and recognized Him as God". And when you continue reading through the rest of the chapter you find that their end is not a good one.