Eternal "sonship"?

On one of these topics, (likely on one of the Mormon topics) there was a question asked about the relationship that Jesus had with the father before he was born?

The question raised the idea of Jesus being the 'Eternal Son'

Did Jesus have a "father-Son" relationship with God before he was born?





I have come to the conclusion that the correct answer is "no"

its a tricky question to deal with, and you have to be carefull that you really define your terms well....
and not toss the baby with the bathwater..

But from the way i understand the incarnation, the "humanity" of Christ started at one point in time, and before that there was NO father/son relationship between the "Word" and "God" talked about at John 1:1

What was the relationship of the Word to God before the incarnation?......Thats another issue.


I just know that the Father/Son relationship had a clear start.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its a tricky question to deal with, and you have to be carefull that you really define your terms well....
and not toss the baby with the bathwater..

But from the way i understand the incarnation, the "humanity" of Christ started at one point in time, and before that there was NO father/son relationship between the "Word" and "God" talked about at John 1:1

What was the relationship of the Word to God before the incarnation?......Thats another issue.


I just know that the Father/Son relationship had a clear start.

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"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:5)

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This “I” and “You” are mentioned as being independent, even within that which they had together. And that which He had with the Father was being requesting for again on earth. So the relationship is essentially the same in both states. Some say this verse is the clearest example of Christ’s preexistence.

" glorify Me together with Yourself, "

I dont really know what even this part of His sentence means.....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

" glorify Me together with Yourself, "

I dont really know what even this part of His sentence means.....

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I believe it is referring to His divine state.

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“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, , “(Philippians 2:6,7)

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in other words...."no one knows..."

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

in other words...."no one knows..."

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No question about it, , the full knowledge by mankind himself is finite, and incapable to lay the full definition of something like faith for instance before the Father to say “this is the total sum of it”. But by it and the help of His Spirit within we are able to conclude upon things limitedly with what He supplies us with.

So yes, in reality, we do not have the total sum knowledge of Philippians 2:7. If He said He emptied Himself of the form of God and what He had with the Father, we have but two paths to handle such p***ages. One of faith in what He supplies, or that which ends up as Paul said of inconclusive paths:

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“, , minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith” (I Tim 1:4)

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we know that the trinity is how God is God..

We know that the Bible calls Jesus the Word before he was made man..
We know that as a man Jesus called himself "son"

We know a few things, but we dont know many more as to how God the Son was the "word".....we dont know if the correct term for the WORD before the birth was "son"

I just think that the term "son" refers to a different type of "relationship"
jesus was always God, but when he entered the world as a human it seems to have been now more correct to call him the "son" rather than the "word".

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

On one of these topics, (likely on one of the Mormon topics) there was a question asked about the relationship that Jesus had with the father before he was born?

The question raised the idea of Jesus being the 'Eternal Son'

Did Jesus have a "father-Son" relationship with God before he was born?

I have come to the conclusion that the correct answer is "no"

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Then you are on biblically sound ground.

Jesus preincarnate was equal with the Father (who wasn't the Father of anything until the incarnation of his Son which he begat).

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
⁵Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
⁵For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Before neither was the case (father or son).

Jesus preincarnate (God the Word see John 1:1 / John 1:14 / 1 John 1:1) is the sole Creator in the beginning.


John 1:1–3 (AV)
¹In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
²The same was in the beginning with God.
³All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.



Colossians 1:13–16 (AV)
¹³Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
¹⁴In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
¹⁵Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
¹⁶For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
²⁴Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Now he was in company with the Father (1 John 1:2) and the Holy Ghost (Genesis 1:2). But he acted alone. By himself. He is the Creator in the beginning and the father of it. But he is not the person in the Godhead who became his Father in the incarnation (who I like to call God the Authority since from all eternity all authority rested with him). His one creation is the body of the Son (John 1:14b / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5).

This solves a lot of traditions of men that actually tied the logic of the whole thing up in knots. Jesus is the actual only begotten Son of God the Authority. The "sons of God" in Genesis 6, *** 1 & 2, Luke 3:38, etc. are sons of God the Word. And we can become sons (children) of God the Authority through adoption.


Romans 8:15 (AV)
¹⁵For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

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Originally Posted by johnd

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
⁵For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Before neither was the case (father or son).

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Interesting, I have never considered. Almost convincing, truly! But it still stops short to overlook:

“the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (John 17:5)

What were you Lord?

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)

Mike.

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Originally Posted by johnd

Then you are on biblically sound ground.

Jesus preincarnate was equal with the Father (who wasn't the Father of anything until the incarnation of his Son which he begat).

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
⁵Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
⁵For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Before neither was the case (father or son).

Jesus preincarnate (God the Word see John 1:1 / John 1:14 / 1 John 1:1) is the sole Creator in the beginning.


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So what I believe is true and supported by the Text is that Jesus is fully God Almighty//always was, always will be..

But at a given moment in time, he took on to himself the additional nature of being fully human.
So he never stopped being God Almighty....and a person of pure spirit.
But so that he could die for us, he took on to himself a human nature, and this human nature was mortal.

God the word wanted to become God the Son.


Thus in a very real way Jesus is the same today as he was before the creation of the Universe, for He is always God Almighty and so not subject to the effects or grasp of time.
And, he is also very much human too,and so was made in the womb of a girl, born, grew and learned, and then died a normal human death.
This all was so that when we have FAITH in his blood covering our sins, that his RESURRECTION can be a good guide as to what our own resurrection will be like too.

What I believe has not been denied. The "I" of verse #5 has not lost it's permanence. The only thing heaven saw a change in with regard to the Christ we see in Rev 5:6, "a Lamb standing, as if slain".

Mike.

alanmolstad/ " glorify Me together with Yourself, "

I dont really know what even this part of His sentence means.....

The glory to which Jesus referred in John 17:1,5 is predicated upon His submitting as a man to the plan of God through the crucifixion, resurrection,and ascension.

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Originally Posted by S.R.L

alanmolstad/ " glorify Me together with Yourself, "

I dont really know what even this part of His sentence means.....

The glory to which Jesus referred in John 17:1,5 is predicated upon His submitting as a man to the plan of God through the crucifixion, resurrection,and ascension.

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well.....=the 'glory" is unknown to humans...we dont have any ideas what Jesus was referring to here...