Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS believe that infants are without condemnation because of the Atonement.

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Since you believe that infants are perfect then why would they need Christ to die for their sins since they don't have any sins?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Speak of the belief in absurdities...

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Romans 3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Can you tell me what this verse says?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS believe that infants are without condemnation because of the Atonement.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Since you believe that infants are perfect then why would they need Christ to die for their sins since they don't have any sins?

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Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

I stated that the infants are without condemnation. The LDS do not believe that infants sin.

And to be sure--you have yet to come up with the first scenario where an infant could possibly sin.

As to the Atonement--all babies are born saved due to the Atonement of Christ. There is a difference between being born saved and Atoning for their sins for their innocence. Little babies have no sin because they do not sin.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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What condemnation do infants have if they are perfect?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't know. But I do know that we are all sinners per Romans 3.

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I don't believe that babies commit sin, but I do believe it's possible that they come into this world with "karma" from past lives. In that sense, I believe Romans.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I was wondering--what do these words mean to you?:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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First off, this verse is referring to Jesus Christ and HE is the author of salvation, for there is no other way under heaven, where by man CAN be saved. What it means is that we must believe in Jesus and we obey Him because we believe that He was sent by God the Father.

John 6:29 says:"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom He has sent."

God works to create faith in His children, that is in Jesus Christ, because He has decreed salvation is by grace through faith. Faith is absolutely essential, and so He works to create it in us, trusting His Son. We have to live by faith, not merely profess Jesus Christ. It is necessary that faith be built in us, because our choices are to be made on the basis of faith.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What condemnation do infants have if they are perfect?

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None. The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included. It's called the Redemption.

Billyray--you do realize the Atonement happened over 2,000 years ago--right?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

None. The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included.

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If infants are condemned then they are not perfect. If they were perfect then they wouldn't need a savior.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I was wondering--what do these words mean to you?:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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Originally Posted by neverending

First off, this verse is referring to Jesus Christ and HE is the author of salvation, for there is no other way under heaven, where by man CAN be saved.

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The question is not who is the author of salvation--but why does this salvation go to those on condition of who obeys Him?

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What it means is that we must believe in Jesus and we obey Him because we believe that He was sent by God the Father.

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All that is true--but it still does not preclude the fact that the scripture specifically indicates it is those who obey God that receive of His grace.

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John 6:29 says:"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom He has sent."

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Which does little more than connect obedience with belief. What is your evidence that obedience to Jesus Christ is not an integral component of belief in Christ?

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[COLOR=#000000][LEFT]God works to create faith in His children, that is in Jesus Christ, because He has decreed salvation is by grace through faith.

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Which in no way excludes the fact that faith without works is dead, or that this grace that saves does not go to the obedient in Christ.

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Faith is absolutely essential, and so He works to create it in us, trusting His Son.

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We have to live by faith, not merely profess Jesus Christ.

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Then what other things do you thing necessary for salvation that is inclusive in faith, other than confessing His name?

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It is necessary that faith be built in us, because our choices are to be made on the basis of faith.

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And what are those things that comprise faith, that has to be "built" in us?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The question is not who is the author of salvation--but why does this salvation go to those on condition of who obeys Him?

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Lets ***ume that you are right for the sake of discussion. Do you obey him?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The question is not who is the author of salvation--but why does this salvation go to those on condition of who obeys Him?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Lets ***ume that you are right for the sake of discussion. Do you obey him?

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The question of my obedience can not be the basis of whether the scriptures are true or not.

The question is--are the scriptures true:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"


Let's leave the judgment of personal obedience in the hands of Him it rightfully belongs to--Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
What condemnation do infants have if they are perfect?

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dberrie---None. The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included. It's called the Redemption.

Billyray--you do realize the Atonement happened over 2,000 years ago--right?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

If infants are condemned then they are not perfect.

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What part of the above post do you not understand?

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If they were perfect then they wouldn't need a savior.

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They are perfect because they have a Savior.

And that Savior did His work over 2,000 years ago.

What would prevent infants from being perfect now?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What part of the above post do you not understand?

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dberrie--The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included.

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The part about infants being condemned. How are infants condemned?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The question of my obedience can not be the basis of whether the scriptures are true or not.

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I take that as no you don't obey him. Who obeys Christ? Can you name a single person?

db: There is nothing else necessary but professing Christ, having a belief in him, just as I quoted John 6:29. Christ never said anything about doing works, only believing. Once one has that belief in Christ and has been saved by His grace, their life should prove their faith in Him. It is that faith that then grows within each Christian and that builds in the believer a desire to do good. How else can we show our faith and love of Christ if we just sit on our back sides and do nothing, but doing good is NOT what saved us, it was our belief!

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I take that as no you don't obey him. Who obeys Christ? Can you name a single person?

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Anyone who is a serious disciple of Christ will be obedient, as much as possible. If you are asking if any of us can do that "perfectly", then the answer is no. Obedience is possible. We all do that to some extent. Perfect obedience is not possible...thus, Christ's atoning sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Perfect obedience is not possible...thus, Christ's atoning sacrifice.

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So not a single person obeys the commandments.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So not a single person obeys the commandments.

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I wouldn't put it that way. We all obey some of the commandments, but not all.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I wouldn't put it that way. We all obey some of the commandments, but not all.

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Either you obey the commandments or you don't.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Either you obey the commandments or you don't.

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Sorry, but it's not that black and white.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Sorry, but it's not that black and white.

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Sure it is.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--What condemnation do infants have if they are perfect?

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dberrie---None. The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included. It's called the Redemption.

Billyray--you do realize the Atonement happened over 2,000 years ago--right?

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--If infants are condemned then they are not perfect.

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dberrie---What part of the above post do you not understand?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The part about infants being condemned. How are infants condemned?

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Again--what part of my posts do we not understand? Infants are not condemned--the Atonement took care of all condemnation due to the Fall over 2,000 years ago. All of mankind are born saved from that time forward. Without condemnation. But infants never sinned, no matter what time period we are talking about.

Prior to the Atonement--all of mankind were condemned to death and hell due to the Fall. It came upon all of mortal men from birth, from Adam till Christ's Atonement, hence--Jesus Christ became the Savior of all men from the condemnation due to the Fall:

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

An event referred to as the Redemption. Thus, Christ as the Redeemer of man. Savior. He saved all men from the condemnation of the Fall. But He did not save infants from their sins--they have none, and never did.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Either you obey the commandments or you don't.

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Libby---Sorry, but it's not that black and white.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure it is.

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If it is that simple Billyray--then repentance and baptism for the remission of sins would be a false doctrine--which the faith alone believe is, but the Biblical record teaches as the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by neverending

db: There is nothing else necessary but professing Christ, having a belief in him, just as I quoted John 6:29. Christ never said anything about doing works, only believing.

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Which then brings up the question of your previous post:

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Neverending---We have to live by faith, not merely profess Jesus Christ.

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Again--what components are you adding to faith other than professing Christ, as you statement here indicates you believe there is something more than professing Christ that is necessary?

Necessary for what?

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Once one has that belief in Christ and has been saved by His grace, their life should prove their faith in Him. It is that faith that then grows within each Christian and that builds in the believer a desire to do good. How else can we show our faith and love of Christ if we just sit on our back sides and do nothing,

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St John14:21-24--"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

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but doing good is NOT what saved us, it was our belief!

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Exactly--obedience to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation in the faith alone theology. All the talk about obedience by the faith alone is independent of Christ's eternal life. It's not necessary.

How does that compare to the teachings of the Savior:

St John5:28-29--"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

I would agree it is not our good works that brings our salvation, but His grace--but the scriptures teach it is those who obey Christ, and follow Him that receive of this grace.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--what part of my posts do we not understand?

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The whole thing which is confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Infants are not condemned--

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If they are perfect and not condemned then they don't need the atonement of Christ. Right?