Joseph Smith and YOUR child!!!!

As we all know, the Mormons here and other sites refuse to say they would not hand over their fourteen (that's 14) year old daughters to Joseph Smith as a plural wife, without Emma's knowledge or consent of the marriage. And further, no Mormon has condemned Smith's absolutely pedophile behavior - that would be his manipulative promise to a child like Helen Mar Kimball (14 years old) that her marriage to him (he was in his late thirties), would ***ure that both she and her entire family would be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom - gods and goddesses, creating and ruling over worlds!

It's pitiful isn't it? What Christian would ever hand over their fourteen year old child to Martin Luther or John Calvin or Billy Graham as a plural wife? None! In fact they'd abhor such a thing. But not the Mormons - because in their eyes, Joseph Smith is above reproach. He is, in fact, a godlike being to them. Did he not say:

History of the Church: "God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it." (vol. 6, pp.319-320)

Does any Mormon condemn that statement? Of course not! For them, Mormon-god is some hapless deity who can only speak through men who claim to be prophets, but who are fallen, sinful men. These "prophets" do no miracles. Speak no prophecies. Smith tried to prophesy, but was a miserable failure. Check out how he messed up:

http://wwwfalseprophecies.htm.utlonlineresources/m.org/



So, following in the footsteps of their illustrious false prophet, Mormons today will worm their way into your lives - and try to steal your child, just as Smith stole Helen Mar Kimball, Heber's only daughter! Here is a good link where Ed Decker deals with the subject of Mormon child stealing. I'm posting this link because I believe children have always been targeted by Mormons. Not only sexually by Smith, but for the sake of conversion by Mormons today:

http://saintsalive.com/resourcelibra...child-stealing

You know what, I've seen this with my own eyes - a good Christian friend's son got baptized into the Mormon cult because he was head over heels in love with a Mormon girl. She came to me, fearful about what had happened to her son. It was too late to tell her that Christians should NEVER EVER date Mormons, and that Christian children need to be raised with that prohibition. Sort of like you teach your little kids to never receive candy from a stranger! And this is especially true if you live in a town that it highly Mormon (as do we). In my friend's case, after a lot of prayer, the son became disenchanted with the whole relationship, left the girl and the cult! Unfortunately, this is the exception, not the rule.

Many members of the LDS exalt the Mormons as the most superior group morally on the face of the earth. All these claims are baseless, when you consider the person of Joseph Smith.


Here is a list of his teenage wives:

Fanny Alger 16
Sarah Ann Whitney 17
Lucy Walker 17
Flora Ann Woodworth 16
Emily Dow Partridge 19
Sarah Lawrence 17
Maria Lawrence 19
Helen Mar Kimball 14
Melissa Lott 19
Nancy M. Winchester [14 or 15]

So, he (Smith) married one 14 year old, and probably two. He also married his own foster daughters. And don't give us the argument that he didn't have sex with these young children:

Verses 62-63: And if he [Joseph Smith] have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.... for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified. (D&C 132).


Notice, Smith is to replenish the earth with these teenage girls - and he didn't do that by osmosis! But the Mormons will say, "where are the kids?" And we say, did you ever hear of birth control methods? Yes, spilling the seed was very much in practice in the 19th century, and if you've ever taken a biology cl*** that is not questionable! And as one contemporary pointed out, if he wasn't successful, he had Dr. John C. Bennett around to perform abortions. Even Hyrum testified that Bennett was in the abortion business.

One thing that has always puzzled me is the fact that Joe Smith had a sexual history of becoming involved with young girls who boarded in his home: Fanny Alger, for instance, and his own foster daughters. What the heck was going on in Emma's mind to allow more women into the house after the Alger mess? I believe Eliza Snow also boarded with the Smith's - and she was basically chased out of the house by Emma. Was there some kind of sickness on Emma's part allowing her husband near so many vulnerable women, knowing what a sexual stalker he was? I'll leave that question to the psychiatrists.

My next post will publish the testimony of a Mormon who left when he found out the truth!

And here is a link to a valuable testimony by someone who got out of the LDS, Praise God:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon351.htm

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Originally Posted by Apologette

And here is a link to a valuable testimony by someone who got out of the LDS, Praise God:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon351.htm

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Let me guess... another testimony from a now non-Christian? "Praise God" for that, right?

Or is it one of those; "While studing I can to realize...", "I found out..", "I couldn't bring myself to believe...", I believe based my searches...". I'm sure this testimony like your others are full of "I"s and not one word of the Spirit revealing anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apologette

And here is a link to a valuable testimony by someone who got out of the LDS, Praise God:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon351.htm

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It ain't easy being mormon sometime.
Over the next few months many LDS will be saying this after the Obama media begins to expose to America the darkside of mormonism, polygamy being just one faction.

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

It ain't easy being mormon sometime.
Over the next few months many LDS will be saying this after the Obama media begins to expose to America the darkside of mormonism, polygamy being just one faction.

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Not to mention the sexual excesses of Joseph Smith. It's dynamite, actually. Imagine following a sexual stalker and calling him a prophet? But, of course, we have Jones and Koresh in our day - it's always the same. The cult leaders mess around with kids sexually and followers justify it somehow. It shows the power of the cult over the human mind.

And here's a big piece of irony - Koresh was reported as having sex with children as young as 12 in guess what newspaper? You got it, the Deseret News:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/2...UNG-GIRLS.html

How come they don't go after Joe, a precursor to Koresh?

What does the fact that Deseret News--a media outlet--reported a story on molestation have to do with Joseph Smith Jr?

Why don't you try posting this from a historical perspective? Is there evidence about Smith being a predator? What is it? Post the words of the people who were there and it will be a better thread. I'll leave this us for a little while...I suggest you reword it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jill

What does the fact that Deseret News--a media outlet--reported a story on molestation have to do with Joseph Smith Jr?

Why don't you try posting this from a historical perspective? Is there evidence about Smith being a predator? What is it? Post the words of the people who were there and it will be a better thread. I'll leave this us for a little while...I suggest you reword it.

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The report was about David Koresh, a cult leader in the 20th century. The ****ogy being made is this: Koresh had the same kind of power over his people that Joseph Smith had - and the use of young girls for sexual pleasure, with their parents' knowledge and consent (such as in the case of Helen Mar Kimball) is demonstrated by the article. I thought that was pretty obvious. Look, Jill, I wrote my thesis on "The Psychology of Destructive Cults," and this component (sexual abuse) is an important indicator that a cult leader has crossed the line from teacher of heresy to sexual exploitation. You find this throughout the Kingdom of the Cults, even in the Jehovah's Witnesses where Russell was charged with sexual mistreatment.

Are you aware that Smith took many teenagers as "plural wives," including two young girls of which he was foster parent? He took Fanny Alger, a maid in his home. He took Helen Mar Kimball, the only daughter of Heber Kimball (a pathetic sycophantic follower who believed Smith could save him), by promising her and her family godhood?

Sexual exploitation, especially of the young, is a keystone of destructive cults.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apologette

The report was about David Koresh, a cult leader in the 20th century. The ****ogy being made is this: Koresh had the same kind of power over his people that Joseph Smith had - and the use of young girls for sexual pleasure, with their parents' knowledge and consent (such as in the case of Helen Mar Kimball) is demonstrated by the article. I thought that was pretty obvious. Look, Jill, I wrote my thesis on "The Psychology of Destructive Cults," and this component (sexual abuse) is an important indicator that a cult leader has crossed the line from teacher of heresy to sexual exploitation. You find this throughout the Kingdom of the Cults, even in the Jehovah's Witnesses where Russell was charged with sexual mistreatment.

Are you aware that Smith took many teenagers as "plural wives," including two young girls of which he was foster parent? He took Fanny Alger, a maid in his home. He took Helen Mar Kimball, the only daughter of Heber Kimball (a pathetic sycophantic follower who believed Smith could save him), by promising her and her family godhood?

Sexual exploitation, especially of the young, is a keystone of destructive cults.

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It takes two, to tango, or in the case of Joseph Smith jr, two, three, four, ect.
Joseph Smith jr. as far as we know never kidnapped any of his playmates so to speak.
Joseph Smith jr used religion as his source of power and his victims came willingly. For what reason who knows? There were many reasons, fear, pride, and most of all a feeling of being special.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jill

What does the fact that Deseret News--a media outlet--reported a story on molestation have to do with Joseph Smith Jr?

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Nothing! This is just Apologette's attempt at a "guilt by ***ociation fallacy". She always does this, but always forgets that the vast majority of “cults” started off being Evangelical Churches; Jim Jones, and any Televangelist, just to start with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jill

Why don't you try posting this from a historical perspective?

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Because the argument loses some of it zing when it's pointed out that marriage at the age of 14 was not that uncommon back then.
Also the use of the word "pedophile" is incorrect" as a pedophile is someone who goes after pre****scent children of 13 years or younger. But I don't think she'll stop using the word, because it sounds more evil; Truth be darned!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jill

Is there evidence about Smith being a predator? What is it? Post the words of the people who were there and it will be a better thread. I'll leave this us for a little while...I suggest you reword it.

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Good luck with that. There is no evidence other than third and fourth hand gossip, a lot of which has been debunked by DNA testing. However just like today it all depended on who you asked, and how you interpret what was said.
This is why it is easier to just play make-believe and pretend, the why the OP suggests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theway

Nothing! This is just Apologette's attempt at a "guilt by ***ociation fallacy". She always does this, but always forgets that the vast majority of “cults” started off being Evangelical Churches; Jim Jones, and any Televangelist, just to start with.

!

Good luck with that. There is no evidence other than third and fourth hand gossip, a lot of which has been debunked by DNA testing. However just like today it all depended on who you asked, and how you interpret what was said.
This is why it is easier to just play make-believe and pretend, the why the OP suggests.

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Where there is smoke there is fire.
Here is one for ya. Orson Pratt attempt at suicide, do you know why?

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Where there is smoke there is fire.
Here is one for ya. Orson Pratt attempt at suicide, do you know why?

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Yes, because he listened to an Anti-Mormon Bennett (who was reported to be having an affair with his wife); The affair was about to be exposed to the Church, so she claimed her excommunication was really a cover-up by Joseph Smith because he had wanted her to be his wife. Later Orson told the crowd in a public meeting when confronted by Joseph, that he knew of no immoral acts by Joseph. Much later he even recanted the statement that he believed Joseph Smith propositioned his wife.

BTW there is no evidence that he tried to commit suicide or that there was any kind of a suicide note; just more gossip and rumors.

Like I said, it all depends on who you ask, and who you believe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

It takes two, to tango, or in the case of Joseph Smith jr, two, three, four, ect.
Joseph Smith jr. as far as we know never kidnapped any of his playmates so to speak.
Joseph Smith jr used religion as his source of power and his victims came willingly. For what reason who knows? There were many reasons, fear, pride, and most of all a feeling of being special.

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Koresh never kidnapped his teen age "wives" either - they willingly submitted to his authority. This is part of the whole cult psychology. In order to understand the psychological control that goes on in destructive cultic systems, one might, for instance, review Lifton's criteria:

Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.

Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "at***udes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)

Beyond these 8 criteria, there is an element of sexual exploitation prevailing in destructive cultic systems. We've seen this in our day in the FLDS, which are closer to early Mormonism than the hybrid official Mormonism of the LDS. Here is important insight into sexual exploitation in cultic systems:

http://www.dreichel.com/Articles/Forensic_Echo.htm

It's all about manipulation, and always has been. Manipulation may come in many guises - it's still the same thing. Sometimes in addressing the doctrinal horrors of Mormonism, we skip over the fact that, ultimately, Smith was no different than any other manipulative cult leader. If we look back upon the cultural scenario we find in Mormonism (for instance, Mormons being ordered to kill unarmed civilians from Arkansas in Mountain Meadows and believing it was God's will), we can see that early Mormonism was really no different than David Koresh's cult, or Jim Jones'. Only the era was different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jill

What does the fact that Deseret News--a media outlet--reported a story on molestation have to do with Joseph Smith Jr?

Why don't you try posting this from a historical perspective? Is there evidence about Smith being a predator? What is it? Post the words of the people who were there and it will be a better thread. I'll leave this us for a little while...I suggest you reword it.

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Here is some historical information for Jill and others not familiar with Smith's licentious lifestyle:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

The book, "In Sacred Loneliness" by Mormon historian, Todd Compton is packed full of documentation about Smith's marriages to young girls and also to the wives of other men. Anybody wanting to know more about this aspect of Mormonism and the heritage of Joseph Smith should read it - it's the best book out there exposing Smith and early Mormon sexual practices.

And for those that like videos, here is one by Sandra Tanner, one of the foremost authorities on Mormonism and Joseph Smith as a sexual predator:

http://defendingcontending.com/2009/...xual-predator/

And here on Mormon Think you'll find a slew of information on Joseph Smith's polygamous relationships, his justification of serial adultery, and his "marriages" to teenage girls:

http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Where there is smoke there is fire.
Here is one for ya. Orson Pratt attempt at suicide, do you know why?

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What a joke that Mormons try to blame Bennett, when it was Old Joe Smith up to his usual tactic of hitting on the wives of missionaries he had sent on convenient missions while he stayed home and "comforted" their wives! They will always cover up for Joe, because if he did half of what we Christians claim, the Mormons would be under conviction to get out of Dodge! Orson Pratt, a direct ancestor of Romney, was devastated to learn about Smith hitting on his wife - he basically had a mental breakdown, having been betrayed by his own prophet! Of course, Pratt was later shot by a disgruntled husband after Pratt abscounded with his wife and "married" her as his tenth wife in polygamy! Pratt's murder actually had a lot to do with the terrible Mountain Meadows slaughter - the Mormons were reeking vengence on the migrants for the deaths of Smith and Pratt.

Here's the truth about Joe Smith and his "sharing" wives with other men - better known as polyandry:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon262.htm

By the way, Old Joe tried the same thing with William Law's wife, Jane, and Law didn't like it one bit - and what did that lead to? William started a newspaper called "The Nauvoo Expositior." Ring a bell out there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apologette

As we all know, the Mormons here and other sites refuse to say they would not hand over their fourteen (that's 14) year old daughters to Joseph Smith as a plural wife, ............!

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Personally I find this part of the opening comment to be a bit hard to believe.

I simply do not think that the Mormons I know personally, as well as the Mormons that I have come to know on this forum over the years, are the type of parents that would simply turn over their young children to be raped, regardless of the leadership postion the rapeist might have in their church.

The idea that a parent, would allow even the suggestion to pop up.......the suggestion that they deliver their 14 year old daughter to the sexual explotation?......simply hard for me to believe.

regardless of the mostly calm and peaceful nature of most of the parents I know, I got to tell you that if this kind of stuff happend in their family they would have been deadly serious about finding the guy and taking grandpa's Dehorner* to em.



(* http://www.ebay.com/itm/Primitive-Ol...item540d1f0a41 )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Primitive-Ol...item540d1f0a41

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Personally I find this part of the opening comment to be a bit hard to believe.

I simply do not think that the Mormons I know personally, as well as the Mormons that I have come to know on this forum over the years, are the type of parents that would simply turn over their young children to be raped, regardless of the leadership postion the rapeist might have in their church.

The idea that a parent, would allow even the suggestion to pop up.......the suggestion that they deliver their 14 year old daughter to the sexual explotation?......simply hard for me to believe.

regardless of the mostly calm and peaceful nature of most of the parents I know, I got to tell you that if this kind of stuff happend in their family they would have been deadly serious about finding the guy and taking grandpa's Dehorner* to em.



(* http://www.ebay.com/itm/Primitive-Ol...item540d1f0a41 )
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Primitive-Ol...item540d1f0a41

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Under normal circumstance most fathers and husbands would never give their innocent daughters and wives over to Joseph Smith jr.
However it happens when grown ups play with fire. The mixing of religion and a cult personality is a powerful combination not to be taken lightly. Remember David Koresh, many TBM would find him a disgusting human being, but?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Where there is smoke there is fire.

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Not always. Sometimes an anti throws out a smoke screen, with the result that there is smoke but no fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

Not always. Sometimes an anti throws out a smoke screen, with the result that there is smoke but no fire.

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Any man who thinks this much of himself, and be humble at the same time?
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409).

Now tell me again why Joseph Smith jr. Gave this sermon?

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Now tell me again why Joseph Smith jr. Gave this sermon?

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Sure, if you really want to learn:

“I will try to be contented with my lot, knowing that God is my friend. In him I shall find comfort. I have given my life into his hands. I am prepared to go at his call. I desire to be with Christ. I count not my life dear to me [except] to do his will.”
(Letter from Joseph Smith to Emma Smith, June 6, 1832, Greenville, Indiana; Chicago Historical Society, Chicago, Illinois.)


These are not the words of a man who believed himself to be better than Christ. Joseph loved Christ and throughout his life strove to follow him. These words written in private to his wife demonstrate that Joseph was not so prideful as to think himself better than Christ. Consider also the following statement, made in public, by Joseph Smith:

"I do not think there have been many good men on the earth since the days of Adam; but there was one good man and his name was Jesus. Many persons think a prophet must be a great deal better than anybody else....I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not." (History of the Church 5:401)

Both in private and in public Joseph Smith demonstrated his humility before the Lord.
Boasting?

The critics' second error is to take Joseph's quote out of context. What was Joseph's intent, and why did he use this approach? As it turns out, he was drawing from the Bible and applying its lessons to his own situation.

In the original context, Joseph was facing intense persecution by many people, including some he had previously considered to be his friends. The statement about "boasting" was supposedly made about a month before he was killed. He made it after reading 2 Corinthians 11: to the congregation. Note the following statement by Paul, in this scripture:

Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly. (2 Corinthians 11:16-19, NASB) ...Do the critics dismiss the words of Paul and deny his calling as an Apostle because he used such a literary approach that included boasting? No, they do not. Yet, they dismiss Joseph Smith when it is clear by his own statements, in context, that he engaged in the exact same literary approach. Consider the words of Joseph right after reading this chapter of Paul's to the congregation:

My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did, I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble....Paul starts the next chapter of 2 Corinthians with the statement "boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable." So, it would appear that Paul recognizes the necessity of boasting at times against the wicked and hard-hearted (though it may do little good, being unprofitable), yet the critics do not allow Joseph to follow Paul's advice and, of necessity, boast at times.

Perhaps the critics are unaware of Paul's advice? Or perhaps they apply a double standard where Paul is allowed such literary and rhetorical license, but Joseph is not?

Such double standards are, sadly, the stock-in-trade of sectarian anti-Mormonism.

In short, Joseph is using the scripture in Paul as a counter-argument (or a rhetorical device)--he is responding to his critics, and demonstrating that (as with Paul) true messengers from God are often persecuted by those who should listen, while the false and apostate are praised. .. http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit..._Church_intact

It goes on to note that the "sermon" in question may not even be accurate, because it was written from other people's memories after JS was dead.

Quote Phoenix...It goes on to note that the "sermon" in question may not even be accurate, because it was written from other people's memories after JS was dead.
Is it safe to asks. Is anything in mormonlandism accurate>
Your Apologetic statement is like me saying. Hitler is quoted saying, "All men are equal.") cancels out him saying, ("We must have a Final solution.")

In Galatians 6:14, the Apostle Paul states "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

The only boasting the Apostle Paul ever talked about was "boasting IN THE CROSS," (Christ centered) and NOT the type of boasting Joseph smith did in the History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409 (SELF-centered) and then exalting himself ABOVE Jesus Christ as well. (SELF-centered)

"I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I

This is Joseph centered, not Christ centered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Is it safe to asks. Is anything in mormonlandism accurate>

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Yes, it is safe to ask that.