Mormonism Stands or Falls with Joseph Smith!

Mormons aren't really here very often as far as I can tell, so we could use this as an outreach to those lurking, who may be researching Mormonism. I think Mormonism actually stands or falls with Joseph Smith. The entire Mormon system is built on the foundation of Joseph Smith. If his claims were fabricated or the result of some kind of demonic manifestation, then all of Mormonism fails to p*** the test of authenticity.

This isn't being anti-Mormon, because I see Mormons as those who have been led to believe Smith's claims are genuine. To be misled is not necessarily a result of being evil - and I think its is incumbent upon those who are not misled by Smith to share the reasons why they reject his claims to heavenly visitations and prophethood.

I'll post some, and I hope other Christians here will join in with their specific reasons for rejecting the claims of Joseph Smith.

Here are some reasons I believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet:

1. Joseph Smith's story of his first vision was altered several times, and written many years after its supposed occurrence. During Joseph Smith's time, many claimed to have personal visitations from divine beings, or supernatural experiences:

http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/f...agiarized.html

The fact is the "first vision account" appears to have been retrofitted into Early Mormon history to bolster Smith's credentials. This site contains some very pertinent issues regarding the founding vision of Mormonism which have never been addressed by believers in Joseph Smith.

http://themormondelusion.com/page5.html

2. Joseph Smith's theology seemed to evolve over time. The Book of Mormon which he claimed to have translated from Reformed Egyptians is definitely in line with more orthodox Christian teaching than the standard theology one finds in Mormonism today. Smith's view on God evolved from semi-Sabellian to outright polytheism. Smith claimed he always taught the "plurality of gods," however it is nowhere found in the Book of Mormon or the inception of Mormonism. In fact, many of the early members of the Mormon Church were Christians who saw Smith as a gifted speaker. Few would have been drawn to Smith's later teachings on polytheism, or polygamy for that matter. It is distressing that potential converts are being told to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it when it really contains NO Mormonism.

So, comments?

President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188). Note that it is Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ, upon which Mormonism stands or falls. Joseph Fielding Smith also said that there is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith.. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 189-190). Mormon scripture commands, "Give heed unto all his (Joseph Smith's) words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me. For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith" (D. & C. 21:4-5). IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188). Note that it is Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ, upon which Mormonism stands or falls. Joseph Fielding Smith also said that there is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith.. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 189-190). Mormon scripture commands, "Give heed unto all his (Joseph Smith's) words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me. For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith" (D. & C. 21:4-5). IHS jim

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Yeah... So????

I'm trying hard but I'm not seeing your point here?

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Originally Posted by theway

Yeah... So????

I'm trying hard but I'm not seeing your point here?

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You really don't do you.. The Christian says, with the authority of the Scripture, that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, that no one comes to the Father, but by Him. There is Biblically no need to accept Joseph Smith, no need to to give his word, his commandments any respect. What is needed is to accept Jesus not Smith.. That is the point.. Smith didn't do ONE THING to bring salvation to mankind.. That was ALL done by Jesus.. He is the Church's High Priest, we who believe, trust Him, accept the justification by His blood, and allow Him to work within us in the process of sanctification need no other "prophet" to give them what he himself never had, that being righteousness. These statements from Joseph Fielding Smith proves that mormonism is a "man worship religion" that has walked away from the God of the Bible even to changing what is revealed of Him into being a mere man Himself. In so doing mormonism is in idolatry and is differently not Christian.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

You really don't do you.. The Christian says, with the authority of the Scripture, that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, that no one comes to the Father, but by Him. There is Biblically no need to accept Joseph Smith, no need to to give his word, his commandments any respect. What is needed is to accept Jesus not Smith.. That is the point.. Smith didn't do ONE THING to bring salvation to mankind.. That was ALL done by Jesus.. He is the Church's High Priest, we who believe, trust Him, accept the justification by His blood, and allow Him to work within us in the process of sanctification need no other "prophet" to give them what he himself never had, that being righteousness. These statements from Joseph Fielding Smith proves that mormonism is a "man worship religion" that has walked away from the God of the Bible even to changing what is revealed of Him into being a mere man Himself. In so doing mormonism is in idolatry and is differently not Christian.. IHS jim

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I see, so your point is "No need to listen to prophets! Cause we have a book!

The irony is that your book is written by Prophets, not Jesus.

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Originally Posted by theway

I see, so your point is "No need to listen to prophets! Cause we have a book!

The irony is that your book is written by Prophets, not Jesus.

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Well, not all of the Holy Bible was written by Prophets.

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Originally Posted by theway

I see, so your point is "No need to listen to prophets! Cause we have a book!

The irony is that your book is written by Prophets, not Jesus.

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You have missed the point.. I didn't say a word about a book.. I said that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That no one comes to the Father but by Him. He brought salvation to us not Smith.. If we believe on Him we will not perish but have everlasting life.. believing Smith brings us nothing.. Life isn't found in him. Life is in and by Jesus and no other.. Now where in all that is there any discussion of a book? IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

You have missed the point.. I didn't say a word about a book.. I said that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That no one comes to the Father but by Him. He brought salvation to us not Smith.. If we believe on Him we will not perish but have everlasting life.. believing Smith brings us nothing.. Life isn't found in him. Life is in and by Jesus and no other.. Now where in all that is there any discussion of a book? IHS jim

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Now I'm starting to see your point/agenda.... You were intending to only post useless rants, strawmen and pla***udes. If that's the case, then this thread really is a waste of time for me.

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Originally Posted by theway

Now I'm starting to see your point/agenda.... You were intending to only post useless rants, strawmen and pla***udes. If that's the case, then this thread really is a waste of time for me.

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All I can add to this, is I hope the handshake you get from Joseph Smith jr. gets you into your mormon heaven, but I have my doubts.

Mormonism all comes down to a secret handshake?.....like when we were kids?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mormonism all comes down to a secret handshake?.....like when we were kids?

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I bet young Joseph Smith jr. let girls come in to his tree-house.

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Originally Posted by theway

Now I'm starting to see your point/agenda.... You were intending to only post useless rants, strawmen and pla***udes. If that's the case, then this thread really is a waste of time for me.

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So you agree that quoting LDS leaders is to use useless pla***udes and strawman arguments? What I don't understand is how you can see wisdom derived from the word of God as having the same authority as those of Joseph Feilding Smith.. It is you that is twisting your words as to attack God's word as only being a book. You don't see the words (commandments) given by Smith as a mere book do you? But you are willing to berate God's word as being a mere book..

I hate to see you waste your time.. You may leave anytime you wish.. As you can see, even though you don't post here the site continues to live.. You are a finger that is pulled out of the sea, you presents through welcome will not have any effect on the level of the sea if it is removed.. Go in peace and try to have joy in your life.

It is a simple to call my words useless pla***udes and strawman arguments but showing such is another matter. Point to one and show me where that is the truth.. Know what I think? YOU WON'T EVEN TRY.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mormonism all comes down to a secret handshake?.....like when we were kids?

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They also have secret p***words.. Pretty bad when your eternal security is dependent on what you know instead of the promises of God. But that is mormonism. They like saying we believe that Jesus lived a perfect life, that He died, and was raised the third day. The problem comes when they say that Jesus was not always God but was created by the actions of a Father and Mother in heaven and became a god through obedience to the will of the Father. Then they teach that He didn't create ALL things but merely organized matter, that unlike him is eternal and self existent. By manipulation of that matter he built the world. He and Adam.. I guess that makes Brigham Young at least half right when He said that Adam is God.. Sounds like, at least in LDS beliefs, Adam should be seen as as much God as Jesus is.. We as Christians believe that without faith it is impossible to please God, he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewards those that seek Him (Heb 11:16). That tells us that the ONE we believe died and was raised the third day must be God and not some man invention. Only God has the power to save not some invention of a man's heart.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by theway

I see, so your point is "No need to listen to prophets! Cause we have a book!

The irony is that your book is written by Prophets, not Jesus.

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Oh, and I guess the prophets of the OT and NT have no meaning to you or the LDS Church today? How often have I heard how your members are not to pit the living prophets against the dead ones? If that is so, then NOTHING JS ever said should be taken as truth since it goes against your living prophet Monson today. And what has Monson done that anyone should take notice of? Has he made any prophesies since taking the helm of your church? NO! but he sure doesn't mind spending billions of ***hes and other monies building malls and expensive condos and buying up land in Florida. How is this building up the kingdom of God? Why then does your church give such a scant amount to help in humanitarian efforts? Less then one percent out of billions is given, why? I look at how much could have been done to help millions in need all around the world with what was spent on the City Creek Mall. Please don't try and patronize us who know the truths about Mormonism. You want to keep your head in the sand, that is up to you. God will force no man to heaven.
Hebrews 1:1-2 says, "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe." God's final word was His son! Why do the scriptures tell us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light? No man comes to the Father but by him? JS took it upon himself to make himself the know all, see all and that NO one could even enter heaven without his say so. How dare he put himself in God's place? Sorry, theway, but you live with rose colored gl***es on and it is time to take them off and see the real world. Time is running out, it is so evident each time you turn on the national news. A president who's goal is to bring down this once great country. Secret, terrorist compounds spread all over this country. Syrian rebels claiming sanctuary are already coming here and now in New Jersey.
No one here would want anyone to perish, which is why we come here and try to show you and all the members of your church it's falsehoods. Yes, sometimes what is said upsets you but we don't take joy in that, I have been where you are now. I too found out how for all my life I had been lied to and NO! it wasn't what I wanted but something I had to come to grips with. God showed me his truths, I give him all the praise and glory for He has given me eternal life through the shed blood of his son, I need no one else.

The first vision story is an interesting one for sure. I guess he either saw what he said he saw, or he is not to be taken seriously. I ran across a new set of short videos recently by a BYU professor attempting to explain away the seeming contradictions in the different versions. I'm not sure what to think of his explanations. I would like to know some of your opinions on them.
Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...BGEZ-StKf2lf3z

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Originally Posted by seeker

The first vision story is an interesting one for sure. I guess he either saw what he said he saw, or he is not to be taken seriously. I ran across a new set of short videos recently by a BYU professor attempting to explain away the seeming contradictions in the different versions. I'm not sure what to think of his explanations. I would like to know some of your opinions on them.
Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...BGEZ-StKf2lf3z

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seeker, let me be the first to welcome you to Walter Martin. When I get more time I will look at these videos. Thank you for joining us.

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Originally Posted by seeker

The first vision story is an interesting one for sure. I guess he either saw what he said he saw, or he is not to be taken seriously. I ran across a new set of short videos recently by a BYU professor attempting to explain away the seeming contradictions in the different versions. I'm not sure what to think of his explanations. I would like to know some of your opinions on them.
Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...BGEZ-StKf2lf3z

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In this person's explanation he admits that a story will change as a person who had the experience matures. Not that the facts change, but their perspective changes.. I put forth the idea that seeing God the Father, and the Son is an event that NO ONE would change.. It would be of such significance that the image would forever be part of indelible memory. To not bother to mention that the Father in Heaven was present in the 1832 version of the event most closely recorded after the event was said to occur and later just plug Him in shows an evolving story not an actual event.. That is the problem in Smith's differing accounts. This and other sever changes made from one version of the first vision to the next makes the whole story subject to question of it's truthfulness.

Christian people hold the Bible to be God word. Being such it is under any and all protection of God for fidelity and the purity of it's message. Jesus did promise that heaven and earth would p*** away but His word would never p*** away.. That word of God explains that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. In the stoning of Stephen we saw Jesus on the right had of God.. To make that fit into the rest of the Bible that teaches that No man has seen God, that God is invisible, could that statement be the position of Jesus in relation to the Father?

Can anyone say they would ever forget the appearance of God to them? Paul may have stumbled as to what his traveling companions saw and heard on the road to Damascus But never was there any question about who appeared to him or what message he was given.. Smith on the other hand couldn't determine who appeared and who didn't. Was he told he was forgiven or was he instructed that he shouldn't join any of the churches. He couldn't decide whether it was the world that lay in sin or if it was the churches that were the sinners. Just the presence or absence of the Father, though extremely important, isn't the only major change Smith made to the story of the first vision. Please don't believe me compare the 1832 version to the official version in the PofPG and see for yourself..

Oh before I forget.. The Father being present in the official version and not being even mentioned in the 1832 version is important.. To the LDS the Father is paramount as God.. How would the most important being in our universe be just overlooked by Smith in 1832? Did the Father introduce Jesus as Smith later testified? In the 1832 version Jesus introduced Himself.. This is definitely an evolving bit of fiction not the true events of that day in the grove.. What really happened there was young Smith fell asleep and had a dream which later he promoted to vision. BUT only after tweaking it to make it the story we have today.. This should fulfill the statement that NE was going to send you.. She sat beside me as I wrote to you.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

In this person's explanation he admits that a story will change as a person who had the experience matures. Not that the facts change, but their perspective changes.. I put forth the idea that seeing God the Father, and the Son is an event that NO ONE would change.. It would be of such significance that the image would forever be part of indelible memory. To not bother to mention that the Father in Heaven was present in the 1832 version of the event most closely recorded after the event was said to occur and later just plug Him in shows an evolving story not an actual event.. That is the problem in Smith's differing accounts. This and other sever changes made from one version of the first vision to the next makes the whole story subject to question of it's truthfulness.

Christian people hold the Bible to be God word. Being such it is under any and all protection of God for fidelity and the purity of it's message. Jesus did promise that heaven and earth would p*** away but His word would never p*** away.. That word of God explains that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. In the stoning of Stephen we saw Jesus on the right had of God.. To make that fit into the rest of the Bible that teaches that No man has seen God, that God is invisible, could that statement be the position of Jesus in relation to the Father?

Can anyone say they would ever forget the appearance of God to them? Paul may have stumbled as to what his traveling companions saw and heard on the road to Damascus But never was there any question about who appeared to him or what message he was given.. Smith on the other hand couldn't determine who appeared and who didn't. Was he told he was forgiven or was he instructed that he shouldn't join any of the churches. He couldn't decide whether it was the world that lay in sin or if it was the churches that were the sinners. Just the presence or absence of the Father, though extremely important, isn't the only major change Smith made to the story of the first vision. Please don't believe me compare the 1832 version to the official version in the PofPG and see for yourself..

Oh before I forget.. The Father being present in the official version and not being even mentioned in the 1832 version is important.. To the LDS the Father is paramount as God.. How would the most important being in our universe be just overlooked by Smith in 1832? Did the Father introduce Jesus as Smith later testified? In the 1832 version Jesus introduced Himself.. This is definitely an evolving bit of fiction not the true events of that day in the grove.. What really happened there was young Smith fell asleep and had a dream which later he promoted to vision. BUT only after tweaking it to make it the story we have today.. This should fulfill the statement that NE was going to send you.. She sat beside me as I wrote to you.. IHS jim

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Thanks dear :) May I just say that for someone investigating the LDS Church, this one point should make someone stop and think. Why would JS have 3 different versions of his vision? In my opinion, if you or I had a vision and actually saw God and Jesus Christ, how would any part of that vision be forgotten? Since no one was with JS when he had his so called, vision how are we to believe it happened at all? We know the type of person JS was, so makes it very hard to accept anything he ever said.

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Originally Posted by neverending

Thanks dear :) May I just say that for someone investigating the LDS Church, this one point should make someone stop and think. Why would JS have 3 different versions of his vision? In my opinion, if you or I had a vision and actually saw God and Jesus Christ, how would any part of that vision be forgotten? Since no one was with JS when he had his so called, vision how are we to believe it happened at all? We know the type of person JS was, so makes it very hard to accept anything he ever said.

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Most normal people with a reasonable degree of inquiry would be shocked that Smith had such diverse narratives about his first vision. Unfortunately, Mormons are conditioned to accept the official story, and look at everything else as "anti" propaganda.

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Originally Posted by Apologette

Most normal people with a reasonable degree of inquiry would be shocked that Smith had such diverse narratives about his first vision. Unfortunately, Mormons are conditioned to accept the official story, and look at everything else as "anti" propaganda.

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The very best "anti propaganda" is supplied by Smith himself.. He wrote in the BofM that:

1 Nephi 3:7
I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

But when it came to keeping the commandment of God for the LDS to build their temple in Far West Missouri Smith god made excuses and released the LDS from keeping the commandment, and why? Lets look:

D&C 124:49
...their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men...

Seems that the LDS god lost some power between the time of Nephi and the time when he command the LDS to build the Temple in Far West. He was able to provide a way for Nephi to obtain the br*** plates but he was powerless against Mobs and state Militia of Missouri. My God created the world and the heavens by the power of his word. He defeated the armies of Pharaoh, feed five thousand, brought salvation to all who would accept it dying for their sins, and raising on the third day for their justification. My God defeated death and Hell. He keeps His promises even those we look forward to in His loving arms.. The LDS god changes his commandments and qualification for salvation. My God doesn't change He is dependable in all that He has done and all that He has promised. I will read and delight in all my "Anti-mormon propaganda". For that is what the Bible is "Anti-mormon propaganda". For Him word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path (Psalm 119:105) IHS jim

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Originally Posted by theway

I see, so your point is "No need to listen to prophets! Cause we have a book!

The irony is that your book is written by Prophets, not Jesus.

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How ignorant! The New Testament is written about Jesus.............not Joseph Smith. Try reading it some time.