Grace and Works

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Eph 2:8-9
Salvation is by grace through faith, a gift to God’s people chosen from the foundation of the world and those whom God transforms by grace inevitably choose to serve Christ. Good works, including our confession of Jesus and our obedience to His commands, follow necessarily from a changed heart.
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Eph 2:10
God’s grace is not payment for obedience, grace is unmerited favor and according to Eph. 2:10 even our works do not originate with us.
Obviously, we still need this grace even after it first sets us on the true way of Christ in our conversion. We must daily turn to the cross and seek Christ in order that we might finish the race. Our Father gives more grace to all who humble themselves, admit their weaknesses, and ask for strength. James 4:6 says “ But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” We do not earn grace by our obedience we are obedient because of grace.

Very true.....

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“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Eph 2:8-9
Salvation is by grace through faith, a gift to God’s people chosen from the foundation of the world and those whom God transforms by grace inevitably choose to serve Christ. Good works, including our confession of Jesus and our obedience to His commands, follow necessarily from a changed heart.
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Eph 2:10
God’s grace is not payment for obedience, grace is unmerited favor and according to Eph. 2:10 even our works do not originate with us.
Obviously, we still need this grace even after it first sets us on the true way of Christ in our conversion. We must daily turn to the cross and seek Christ in order that we might finish the race. Our Father gives more grace to all who humble themselves, admit their weaknesses, and ask for strength. James 4:6 says “ But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” We do not earn grace by our obedience we are obedient because of grace.

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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Ephesians 1:4 states that he has chosen us IN him (Jesus Christ) not chosen us to be in him. The key is to be in him then all the predestining applies, not before.

It is through faith that God saves us by his grace. Acts 16:30 directly asks the question,” What must I do to be saved?” and Acts 16:31directly answers, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”. This is all that a human being can do in order to be saved. Having faith and believing still does not obligate God to save anyone. The reason God saves us is that he wants to do it and he chose to save those that believe in Jesus. (See John 3:16)

We do our part, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God does his part, saving us that believe.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Ephesians 1:4 states that he has chosen us IN him (Jesus Christ) not chosen us to be in him. The key is to be in him then all the predestining applies, not before.

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That is an interesting statement. Romans 8:29 says,"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." In light of your statement could we also say of Romans 8:29, while God didn't chose certain people to be saved, He made plans to conform those who would be saved to the image of His Son?

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That is an interesting statement. Romans 8:29 says,"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." In light of your statement could we also say of Romans 8:29, while God didn't chose certain people to be saved, He made plans to conform those who would be saved to the image of His Son?

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I would say that he did not choose any to salvation. He called many but it is obvious that all that he called did not get salvation. Many are called but few are chosen. (See Matthew 22:14). Where do you find that he chose any to salvation? Ephesians 1:4 says that he chose us in him, Christ, not for salvation, but that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Salvation is an accomplished fact before any choosing of any kind is done.

It would be safe to say that if you are saved then you are also in Christ. Anyone in Christ, saved, would be conformed to the image of Christ.

God foreknew that those that were in Christ would be predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

We are accepted in the beloved, not before being in him, in whom (Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. (See Ephesians 1:7) None of this is for anyone that is not first in Christ.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

the whole world is called.

thats what the cross is.

From our human point of view we can clearly see how god called out to all men with salvation via the cross....






and at the same time..
We know from the beginning that god knew that he has hand-picked only a few to believe and worked history so that these few would believe

Nothing was ever in doubt

Are you proposing that the just shall live by fate???

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Are you proposing that the just shall live by fate???

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from our human point of view...there is no such thing as 'fate"

The future is not set in stone....no one knows what is to happen in the future...
The things that happen are all outside our understanding.
The future is like the wind ****ing....we see its effects , but have no idea where it came from or where it goes to...?

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the whole world is called.

thats what the cross is.

From our human point of view we can clearly see how god called out to all men with salvation via the cross....

and at the same time..
We know from the beginning that god knew that he has hand-picked only a few to believe and worked history so that these few would believe

Nothing was ever in doubt

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Where do you get the idea that God called out to all men with salvation? You seem to believe that there were men out there that had salvation before God even called them. How can this be?

Where do you get the idea that God has “hand picked” only a few to believe? Where is that found? Nothing was ever in doubt?? What was never in doubt? Answer with book chapter and verse that indicates this.

Now read your next post.

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from our human point of view...there is no such thing as 'fate"

The future is not set in stone....no one knows what is to happen in the future...
The things that happen are all outside our understanding.
The future is like the wind ****ing....we see its effects , but have no idea where it came from or where it goes to...?

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There is no such thing as fate??? You have just described fate to a tee!

fate



1. the power or agency supposed to determine the outcome of events before they occur; destiny
2.
a. something inevitable, supposedly determined by this power
b. what happens or has happened to a person or en***y; lot; fortune
3. final outcome
4. death; destruction; doom
5. any of the three Fates

Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/fate#w...grcw42jBIhm.99

fate



noun
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events: Fate did not favor his career.
2. a. The inevitable events predestined by this force: It was her fate to marry a lout.
b. A final result or consequence; an outcome: What was the fate of your project?
c. An unfavorable outcome in life; doom or death: suffered a fate worse than death; the island where the explorer met his fate.
3. Fates Greek & Roman Mythology The three goddesses, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos, who control human destiny. Used with the

Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/fate#w...grcw42jBIhm.99

By your statement you worship fate, not the God of the Bible. Do you really know what it is that you are talking about???

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Where do you get the idea that God called out to all men with salvation?

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yes, the cross.

the invitation of the cross is for all men...
God loved the whole world...that he sent his son...that they who believe...

So God loved the whole world and to the whole world got sent his son....yet while the cross is "sufficient " to save the whole world, it is "efficient' to save only they that believe...

walter martin gave me that...LOL

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Originally Posted by Saxon

....You seem to believe that there were men out there that had salvation before God even called them. How can this be?

?

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God's point of view....
In God's point of view, nothing happens after other things...

God does not know things before he does things...
God is not trapped in time...

My salvation is a work of God.
My salvation was always planned by God
God did not leave my salvation in doubt...

so from the time before time began, my salvation was already a done-deal......100% done...

Thats God's point of view...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Where do you get the idea that God has “hand picked” only a few to believe?

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For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

There is no such thing as fate???

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from the human point of view...

There is no such thing as fate.
Nothing is known of the future...No one knows what is going to happen.
You dont know who is saved and who is lost...

thus the calling goes out to all men,and all have the chance to hear and take it in faith to salvation...

from the human point of view....

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Do you really know what it is that you are talking about???

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yes...would you like to listen to Dr Walter Martin talk about this?

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination

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yes, the cross.

the invitation of the cross is for all men...
God loved the whole world...that he sent his son...that they who believe...

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You are saying that the invitation to salvation for all men is the cross. You believe that not all men are capable of answering the call to salvation because of Gods plan to save a hand picked few. This is a belief in FATE, not faith.

Fate noun
1. The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events: Fate did not favor his career.
2. a. The inevitable events predestined by this force: It was her fate to marry a lout.
b. A final result or consequence; an outcome: What was the fate of your project?
c. An unfavorable outcome in life; doom or death: suffered a fate worse than death; the island where the explorer met his fate.
3. Fates Greek & Roman Mythology The three goddesses, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos, who control human destiny. Used with the

Does God love the world or does he not? If God has offered salvation to one man, he has also offered it to all men. There is nothing in the scriptures that suggest that all men could not have come to salvation. It does strongly indicate that all men will not come to salvation. This is an enormous difference in thought.


S

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o God loved the whole world and to the whole world got sent his son....yet while the cross is "sufficient” to save the whole world, it is "efficient' to save only they that believe...

walter martin gave me that...LOL

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Efficient has nothing to do with sufficient. If the cross is sufficient then it is able to save all men. Efficient to save only those that believe is a statement that says nothing about the question at hand. It is redundant seeing that the condition for salvation is faith exercised by believing. If one doesn't believe then God does not save. God does not hand pick the ones that are saved. there is nothin in the Bible that says that.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

You are saying that the invitation to salvation for all men is the cross. ....

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In a way...the whole life of Christ is god reaching out to all men...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

.... You believe that not all men are capable of answering the call to salvation because of Gods plan to save a hand picked few. ....

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again...there are to correct points of view..
They are truly different...but united.

The POV of God
The POV of man

So you cant ask a question unless you know what point of view you want the answer from?

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Efficient has nothing to do with sufficient.....

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This is the answer:

The cross of Christ is "sufficient" to save all men,
That means every single person that has even been born....
billions and billions of souls...
the cross is powerful enough to save them all....no problem...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

If the cross is sufficient then it is able to save all men. .

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yes...thats what the word means...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

God does not hand pick the ones that are saved. .

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yes he does..

Every name of the save was written by him and only by him in the lambs book of life before the world began...

so as I said....there are two totally correct, yet different points of view, or in other words..To answer the question you have to tell people what way you are looking at the situation.

When you look at the situation from the "human" point of view then you answer it one way,,,and that way is to say that "No one knows the future,,,its all unknown ,,,and all can hear and repent and believe....

At the same time, when you look at the same situation from God's point of view that we see that in God's eyes, all this was finished before it was started.
no thing is by accident. Our salvation was always guaranteed from before the creation of the universe...

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so as I said....there are two totally correct, yet different points of view, or in other words..To answer the question you have to tell people what way you are looking at the situation.

When you look at the situation from the "human" point of view then you answer it one way,,,and that way is to say that "No one knows the future,,,its all unknown ,,,and all can hear and repent and believe....

At the same time, when you look at the same situation from God's point of view that we see that in God's eyes, all this was finished before it was started.
no thing is by accident. Our salvation was always guaranteed from before the creation of the universe...

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Unfortunately there is nothing in the Bible that supports your “point of view”. The Bible does not give God’s point of view. We could not have any understanding of it whatsoever. Your finite mind and mine cannot hope to comprehend his infinite mind of God. (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

As for the Bible, God has inspired men to write to men so men could understand what the Lord has wanted us to understand. You would have me believe that if I am saved I was actually saved before the world was formed. This is blatantly untrue. (See John 3:7)

What is it to be born AGAIN? It is a second birth, born of the Spirit. With out the second birth there is no salvation. You were not saved until you were born again. Being born again cannot happen until you were born of a woman into the world that you are now living in. You were conceived in sin. (See Psalm 51:5) To be conceived is not the sin but you as the rest of the human race were born as a sinner, conceived in a world where all are sinners. You were not saved until you, by faith, believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Any other way of salvation is a lie.

There is no scripture that states that any one has been predestined to salvation. The scripture that is used to confirm that thought simply does not say that at all. Ephesians 1:3 to 6 clearly states that those that are IN CHRIST are blessed, chosen and predestinated. There is no mention of predestinated to salvation anywhere. Outside of Christ we were all lost sinners that are at enmity with God. (See James 4:4) In Christ we are blessed with all spiritual blessings. (See Ephesians 1:3 to 6) Your comment is total nonsense.



Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Show me how that says predestined to believe (salvation). To say that confirms predestination to salvation is to contradicts
Ephesians 1:3 to 6.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Dr. Martian was a brilliant man but he was not always correct. None of us are.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Dr. Martian was a brilliant man but he was not always correct. None of us are.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1-WKt0BZvE





Walter Martin is correct however in this case...

Very correct....

It is truly unfortunate that you can't speak for yourself. I would like to see your comment on post 23. (18 on the threaded mode) I have a large number of Dr. Martin's tapes that I listen to already. You should try defending you position from scripture, after all that is the only authority that really counts. Dr Martin would agree to that in any case.

In the video I have posted above...at the point of the video found at 5:43 you will hear Walter deal with our topic here.


Walter talks about the way man looks at the question of salvation (Man's point of view and our freedom)
and he looks at how God looks at the question of salvation, (God's sovereignty )

As I said, "It is truly unfortunate that you can't speak for yourself. I would like to see your comment on post 23. (18 on the threaded mode)"

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Originally Posted by Saxon

As I said, "It is truly unfortunate that you can't speak for yourself. I would like to see your comment on post 23. (18 on the threaded mode)"

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You didnt really ask me any new questions at post #23 that I have not already addressed in my many answers .

If there is something new you wish me to look at?..or a verse you wish my views on?...then let me know.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You didnt really ask me any new questions at post #23 that I have not already addressed in my many answers .

If there is something new you wish me to look at?..or a verse you wish my views on?...then let me know.

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I said nothing new, but with scripture, I have contradicted your unbiblical claims. According to the Bible you are in error.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

I said nothing new, but with scripture, I have contradicted your unbiblical claims. According to the Bible you are in error.

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yes, so if you do have a question in the future then, just ask...