Abraham's belief

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

Was Abraham under the Mosaic Law since he is specifically mentioned?

---

No. Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--that was Paul's point in Romans4. Abraham did not do the works--because he did not live under the Mosaic Law.

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

That is a reference to Abraham--he did not do the works of the Mosaic Law--he lived under a different Law than the Mosaic Law.

Paul's point? That the Jews--whose calling card to being the elite was a claim to "father Abraham" ---should realize Abraham lived 400 years before the Mosaic Law. In reality, Abraham lived under the very law that Paul was attempting to convert the Jews into--the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Pretty cunning approach, IMO. Brilliant.

Now--here is Abraham's belief:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Billyray--if the reference to "works" in Roman4 were to the works of the gospel of Jesus Christ--the Jews could have cut him to pieces--just by quoting Genesis26:4-5. That defies that premise.

Paul's "works" in Romans4 were a reference to the Mosaic Law.

So--if you still maintain that Paul thought works were not necessary under the gospel of Christ--could you explain this?


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No. Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--

---

And what were the requirements for Abraham "under the gospel of Christ"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

And what were the requirements for Abraham "under the gospel of Christ"?

---

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Abraham did not do the works--because he did not live under the Mosaic Law.

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

That is a reference to Abraham--he did not do the works of the Mosaic Law--he lived under a different Law than the Mosaic Law.

---

So verse 4 and 5 refer to Abraham? OK. What was the basis for Abraham's righteousness according to these verses?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

---

Which would include what exactly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No. Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--that was Paul's point in Romans4. Abraham did not do the works--because he did not live under the Mosaic Law.

---

Romans 4
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Do you think these verses apply to David who did live under the Law?

Romans 4
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

What group of people is this verse referring to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Abraham did not do the works--because he did not live under the Mosaic Law.

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

That is a reference to Abraham--he did not do the works of the Mosaic Law--he lived under a different Law than the Mosaic Law.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

So verse 4 and 5 refer to Abraham?

---

No. Verse 4 refers to those who do the works of the Mosaic Law--not Abraham--he did not live under the Mosaic Law:

4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

IOW--there was no grace unto life under the Mosaic Law--it was nothing but debt.

Quote:

---

What was the basis for Abraham's righteousness according to these verses?

---

His faith and belief in Jesus Christ's gospel. And here it is:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No. Verse 4 refers to those who do the works of the Mosaic Law--not Abraham--he did not live under the Mosaic Law:

---

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

And verse 5 refers to who?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

His faith and belief in Jesus Christ's gospel. And here it is:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

---

And what commandments did Abraham obey?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---No. Verse 4 refers to those who do the works of the Mosaic Law--not Abraham--he did not live under the Mosaic Law:

4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

IOW--there was no grace unto life under the Mosaic Law--it was nothing but debt.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

And verse 5 refers to who?

---

Abraham. He did not do the works of the Law--he lived 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Abraham. He did not do the works of the Law--he lived 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.

---

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Do you believe that Abraham was ungodly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

And verse 5 refers to who?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Abraham. He did not do the works of the Law--he lived 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Do you believe that Abraham was ungodly?

---

Romans4:5 does not identify Abraham as ungodly--only that he believed on the God who justifies the ungodly--which Christ did when he Atoned for the sins of the whole world--He justified the ungodly and all men everywhere--every sin--and justified all men to life:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--all men are absolved from the condemnation of the Fall--and can obtain eternal life--they are now born free--justified of life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans4:5 does not identify Abraham as ungodly--only that he believed on the God who justifies the ungodly--which Christ did when he Atoned for the sins of the whole world--He justified the ungodly and all men everywhere--every sin--and justified all men to life:

---

DB you are all over the map on this section of scripture and the only explanation is that if conflicts with your beliefs and you are trying to deceptively explain it away. Now you told me in a prior post that verse 5 was speaking about Abraham--but now you are telling me that it is not speaking about Abraham. Let's look at the verse again.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

So what part of verse 5 is speaking about Abraham?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Romans4:5 does not identify Abraham as ungodly--only that he believed on the God who justifies the ungodly--which Christ did when he Atoned for the sins of the whole world--He justified the ungodly and all men everywhere--every sin--and justified all men to life:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--all men are absolved from the condemnation of the Fall--and can obtain eternal life--they are now born free--justified of life.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billyray

DB you are all over the map on this section of scripture and the only explanation is that if conflicts with your beliefs and you are trying to deceptively explain it away. Now you told me in a prior post that verse 5 was speaking about Abraham--but now you are telling me that it is not speaking about Abraham. Let's look at the verse again.

---

I have never told you Romans 4:5 was not referring to Abraham. It is referring to Abraham, the faithful, and all those whom God Atoned for--all of mankind.

Quote:

---

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

So what part of verse 5 is speaking about Abraham?

---

All of it--and also--- all those who will have faith in Christ, and all those whom God Atoned for--all of mankind. How does your objection here somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have Abraham receiving of God's grace due to His obedience?


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Romans4:5 does not identify Abraham as ungodly--only that he believed on the God who justifies the ungodly--which Christ did when he Atoned for the sins of the whole world--He justified the ungodly and all men everywhere--every sin--and justified all men to life:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--all men are absolved from the condemnation of the Fall--and can obtain eternal life--they are now born free--justified of life.

---

Quote:

---

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post DB you are all over the map on this section of scripture and the only explanation is that if conflicts with your beliefs and you are trying to deceptively explain it away. Now you told me in a prior post that verse 5 was speaking about Abraham--but now you are telling me that it is not speaking about Abraham. Let's look at the verse again.

---

I have never told you Romans 4:5 was not referring to Abraham. It is referring to Abraham, the faithful, and all those whom God Atoned for--all of mankind.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Quote:

---

So what part of verse 5 is speaking about Abraham?

---

All of it--and also--- all those who will have faith in Christ, and all those whom God Atoned for--all of mankind. How does your objection here somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have Abraham receiving of God's grace due to His obedience?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.