Nothing was ever lost or destroyed

Jesus Christ built HIS church. HE was much better at it than joe smith could EVER be.

Jesus Christ's church was NEVER
completely apostasied
destroyed
removed from the earth
unable to speak or act for God or lost ANY of HIS AUTHORITY
Stupid enough to 'lose' its Gospel



There was NOTHING for joe smith to 'restore,' so joe smith INVENTED a bunch of NEW JUNK like his 'new' living apostles (that he himself picked), his 'new' gospel, his 'new' priesthoods, his 'new' junior 'elders,' etc etc etc.

In other words, joe smith INVENTED A NEW RELIGION. Why should we follow him, baal, islam or ANY OTHER NEWLY INVENTED CULT SUCH AS MORMONISM, MORMON FUNDAMENTALISM, STRANGITEISM or ANY of the other cults?

I don't believe we should.

Do you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Jesus Christ built HIS church. HE was much better at it than joe smith could EVER be.

Jesus Christ's church was NEVER
completely apostasied
destroyed
removed from the earth
unable to speak or act for God or lost ANY of HIS AUTHORITY
Stupid enough to 'lose' its Gospel



There was NOTHING for joe smith to 'restore,' so joe smith INVENTED a bunch of NEW JUNK like his 'new' living apostles (that he himself picked), his 'new' gospel, his 'new' priesthoods, his 'new' junior 'elders,' etc etc etc.

In other words, joe smith INVENTED A NEW RELIGION. Why should we follow him, baal, islam or ANY OTHER NEWLY INVENTED CULT SUCH AS MORMONISM, MORMON FUNDAMENTALISM, STRANGITEISM or ANY of the other cults?

I don't believe we should.

Do you?

---

STILL NO EVIDENCE that Christ's church was EVER
completely apostasied
destroyed
removed from the earth
or
that it
lost its AUTHORITY TO ACT OR SPEAK FOR GOD
OR
that it was EVER STUPID ENOUGH TO LOSE ITS GOSPEL.

Joe smith never 'restored' anything. He simply INVENTED NEW JUNK.

NONE of joe smith's 'res***ution' was really 'res***ution' of anything. It was 'redefinition' and INVENTION. . .NOTHING MORE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000cd]Jesus Christ built HIS church. HE was much better at it than joe smith could EVER be.

Jesus Christ's church was NEVER
completely apostasied
destroyed
removed from the earth
unable to speak or act for God or lost ANY of HIS AUTHORITY
Stupid enough to 'lose' its Gospel

---

Then perhaps you could explain why the need for a Restoration--where new denominations were created--with a different theology.

So--if the gospel or His chuirch was never lost--then what church are you claiming the Reformers joined with--which was already present?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then perhaps you could explain why the need for a Restoration--where new denominations were created--with a different theology.

So--if the gospel or His chuirch was never lost--then what church are you claiming the Reformers joined with--which was already present?

---

So you think the utah mormons should be 'restored' because of those mormon 'reformers' like the strangites, temple lot group, fundamentalists etc? EACH (INCLUDING THE UTAH MORMONS, OF COURSE) with their new and 'different' theologies. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Then perhaps you could explain why the need for a Restoration--where new denominations were created--with a different theology.

So--if the gospel or His chuirch was never lost--then what church are you claiming the Reformers joined with--which was already present?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

[So you think the utah mormons should be 'restored' because of those mormon 'reformers' like the strangites, temple lot group, fundamentalists etc? EACH (INCLUDING THE UTAH MORMONS, OF COURSE) with their new and 'different' theologies. . .

---

What I believe has nothing to do with what the Reformers did in starting new denominations with a different theology.

Again--if there was no apostasy--then why the need for new denominations with a different theology?

The LDS church was a restoration:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What I believe has nothing to do with what the Reformers did in starting new denominations with a different theology.

Again--if there was no apostasy--then why the need for new denominations with a different theology?

The LDS church was a restoration:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

---

ALL you have to support YOUR SPECULATION that the lds religion (YOUR version of it) was a 'restoration' of ANYTHING is the word of a conman, charlatan, and heretic, joey smith. NOT ONE WORD FROM GOD ANYWHERE.

You ALSO ENJOY YOUR OWN new religion in its multiple and varied forms from strangites, 'fundamentalists,' temple-lot and over a hundred OTHER lds denominations, EACH OF WHICH has ITS OWN 'DIFFERENT' THEOLOGIES.

Why should we believe YOUR particular heretical group (IF they even acknowledge you) is the 'right one?' or is from GOD AT ALL?

OR

Is YOUR GROUP 'just another one of those many 'lds' cults that are worthless and heretical?

2 Tim 3:1-6
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
NKJV

Sounds EXACTLY LIKE JOSEPH SMITH, doesn't it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

ALL you have to support YOUR SPECULATION that the lds religion (YOUR version of it) was a 'restoration' of ANYTHING is the word of a conman, charlatan, and heretic, joey smith. NOT ONE WORD FROM GOD ANYWHERE.

---

The LDS have the heavenly visitations--with witnesses:


Doctrine and Covenants---Section 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

ALL you have to support YOUR SPECULATION that the lds religion (YOUR version of it) was a 'restoration' of ANYTHING is the word of a conman, charlatan, and heretic, joey smith. NOT ONE WORD FROM GOD ANYWHERE.

You ALSO ENJOY YOUR OWN new religion in its multiple and varied forms from strangites, 'fundamentalists,' temple-lot and over a hundred OTHER lds denominations, EACH OF WHICH has ITS OWN 'DIFFERENT' THEOLOGIES.

Why should we believe YOUR particular heretical group (IF they even acknowledge you) is the 'right one?' or is from GOD AT ALL?

OR

Is YOUR GROUP 'just another one of those many 'lds' cults that are worthless and heretical?

2 Tim 3:1-6
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
NKJV

Sounds EXACTLY LIKE JOSEPH SMITH, doesn't it?

---

Good post!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then perhaps you could explain why the need for a Restoration--where new denominations were created--with a different theology.

So--if the gospel or His chuirch was never lost--then what church are you claiming the Reformers joined with--which was already present?

---

Let's see now...YOUR GROUP
may need to be restored if your building is falling down, your leadership is falling into disrepute, and/or your morals are falling.

CHRIST'S church never needed to be restored, never WAS restored with different theologies, BUT THE MORMON RELIGION NEEDS TO BE RESTORED.

There have been 150+ of those MORMON denominations, EACH OF WHICH CLAIMS to be "the ONLY TRUE" church

Why believe YOURS is the ONLY "TRUE" MORMON RELIGION?

Claiming that the attempts to restore the ROMAN congregations must mean that CHRISTIANITY died is just like claiming that any attempts to restore the STRANGITE congregations must mean that MORMONISM DIED.

Your 'logic' fails you.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;173164]The LDS have the heavenly visitations--with witnesses:

So have the 150 or so OTHER mormon religions. YOU ALL seem to say that!

I <snipped> the fakey joey smith 'revelation' junk.

OF COURSE joey smith said that. Bring-em young said about the same kind of junk. So did the fundamentalist, Jeffs, no doubt.

SO WHAT? GOD never said it. Those guys all said it to keep control over their manmade religions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Let's see now...YOUR GROUP
may need to be restored if your building is falling down, your leadership is falling into disrepute, and/or your morals are falling.

CHRIST'S church never needed to be restored, never WAS restored with different theologies, BUT THE MORMON RELIGION NEEDS TO BE RESTORED.

There have been 150+ of those MORMON denominations, EACH OF WHICH CLAIMS to be "the ONLY TRUE" church

Why believe YOURS is the ONLY "TRUE" MORMON RELIGION?

Claiming that the attempts to restore the ROMAN congregations must mean that CHRISTIANITY died is just like claiming that any attempts to restore the STRANGITE congregations must mean that MORMONISM DIED.

Your 'logic' fails you.

---

What seems to fail, IMO-- is a claim to new denominations with a different theology--without the first heavenly manifestation.

Again--the scriptures show there would be a restoration:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Doctrine and Covenants---Section 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;173173]What seems to fail, IMO-- is a claim to new denominations with a different theology--without the first heavenly manifestation.

Again--the scriptures show there would be a restoration:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Since joe smith never 'res***uted' anything at all, you must thing that 'res***ution' must mean 'INVENTION'

Since ALL of the prophets led us towards the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ (not a demonic 'spirit-brother' of satan), and SINCE Jesus speaks to US IN GOD'S WORD, (THE BIBLE) we don't have ANY NEED AT ALL FOR YOUR "INVENTOR" joey smith, the heretic and criminal.

Heb 1:1-2


1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son. . .
NKJV


NOT by joey smith. NOT by sun myung moon. NOT by maharaj ji.

YOU MUST THINK JESUS WAS STUPID. . .HE BUILT A CHURCH, but according to you and others like you, He somehow 'forgot' to make it solid, lasting FOREVER.

You and joey smith and all of smith's 150+ (including yours) are simply wrong.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;173173]What seems to fail, IMO-- is a claim to new denominations with a different theology--without the first heavenly manifestation.

Again--the scriptures show there would be a restoration:

A 'restoration' of WHAT? Why should we believe joe smith 'restored' anythng at all?

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

I snipped the joe smith trash. There is NO BIBLICAL OR OTHER REAL EVIDENCE that joey 'res***uted' or "restored" ANYTHING AT ALL.

The TRUTH, THE EVIDENCE, BOTH BIBLICAL AND OTHERWISE demonstrates that joe smith simply INVENTED A NEW RELIGION, NOT RELATED TO THE ORIGINAL AT ALL.

A bit of his 'new junk. . .'
that you can be exalted into godhood (WHAT WAS IT THE SERPENT IN THE GARDEN TEMPTED EVE WITH. . .?
that you must be baptized into one of the lds religions (there are over 150 of them) to be a member of the family of God.
that Jesus Christ is supposedly 'related to satan' as a 'spirit-brother'
that to make brownie points with God you must 'do the ordinances
that the church Jesus Christ built was to be run by either the aaronic priesthood or the melchizedek priesthood here on earth..
that Jesus was too stupid to set up a church that would remain FAITHFUL to Himself, thus must be 'removed from the earth.'
that the Gospel of Christ could be lost

etc
etc
etc

A bunch of NEW RELIGION that joe smith invented himself. . .
NOT related to the first century church that JESUS CHRIST BUILT at all.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;173164]The LDS have the heavenly visitations--with witnesses:

So they claim. But so do the REST OF THE 150+ lds religions make the same claims OF THEMSELVES, EACH OF THEM DECLARING THE REST TO BE FAKES.

Why should we believe berry's religion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What seems to fail, IMO-- is a claim to new denominations with a different theology--without the first heavenly manifestation.

Again--the scriptures show there would be a restoration:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Doctrine and Covenants---Section 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

So they claim.

---

That's the claim of all those whom God uses to bring forth scripture--as the Biblical text testifies to.

But first--one must have those revelations and witnesses. The Reformers are empty of those claims. The LDS and the Biblical writers have those heavenly events.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

There is NO BIBLICAL OR OTHER REAL EVIDENCE that joey 'res***uted' or "restored" ANYTHING AT ALL.

---

Regardless of what one believes about Joseph Smith--it's the Biblical record which presents the problem with your claim of nothing being lost:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

IOW--if nothing was lost--then why is there a need for a restoration? A Reformation?

the berry posted:

Regardless of what one believes about Joseph Smith--it's the Biblical record which presents the problem with your claim of nothing being lost:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

IOW--if nothing was lost--then why is there a need for a restoration? A Reformation?

Some of the FLIES IN YOUR OINTMENT:

1. The roman empire WAS NEVER CHRISTIANITY. It had a congregation (a GROUP) that started out as a Christian GROUP, that became a NON-CHRISTIAN group as the Christians died off or left and the heathens took over.

Joe smith 'restored' nothing at all. CHRISTIANITY did not lose anything. NOTHING in joey smith's made-up religion EVER EXISTED in CHRIST'S original church
NO "you can become exalted to godhood' dung
NO "Christ's church had to be 'removed from the earth' dung.
NO manmade priesthoods
NO "you gotta have living mortal apostles and a living mortal jesus
NO 'spirit babies'
NO 'spirit-brother-of-satan'-'jesus" dung

NO marry the little girls or "marry'" the wives of other living men

2. There is NO REASON TO BELIEVE JOE SMITH was a prophet of ANY god
3. There is NO VALID EVIDENCE that joey smith's fantasy world of the bom ever existed in REALITY.

Sorry, but the problemS are yours, NOT OURS.