Our Lady of Fatima

Greetings all:
I'm doing my once in while pop in..:)
My question to my Catholic friends is how credible is the reports of the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Fatima?

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

Greetings all:
I'm doing my once in while pop in..:)
My question to my Catholic friends is how credible is the reports of the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Fatima?

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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15477a.htm

The presence of Christ and Mary would be found under the sub***le of corporeal vision. As far as credibility is concerned, it seems that the *** is up to the "devil's advocate" of which would naturally follow investigations of Lucia Santos, Jacinta and Francisco Marto's process of cannonization after their deaths.

However, the apparitions are not a primary aspect of Catholic faith. So long as the devotion does not grow into divine worship of Mary, rather than Mary pointing to her Son as the acceptable method. So for me it is a non-issue. I have only posted for the purpose of recognizing your thread; to show that as a Catholic, I am not ignoring you.

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Originally Posted by Columcille

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15477a.htm

The presence of Christ and Mary would be found under the sub***le of corporeal vision. As far as credibility is concerned, it seems that the *** is up to the "devil's advocate" of which would naturally follow investigations of Lucia Santos, Jacinta and Francisco Marto's process of cannonization after their deaths.

However, the apparitions are not a primary aspect of Catholic faith. So long as the devotion does not grow into divine worship of Mary, rather than Mary pointing to her Son as the acceptable method. So for me it is a non-issue. I have only posted for the purpose of recognizing your thread; to show that as a Catholic, I am not ignoring you.

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Well, just to clear the air, the question wasn't meant to antagonize, just an honest question. Also, I have done some cursory research myself on the subject, and the literature that the Fatima group refers to Mary in a very formal way (i.e. She and Her, like one would refer to God as He, in the rpoper sense). In the Church, is it common to refer to Mary in such a way?

If Mary is the Queen of heaven, I should imagine that some would capitalize "Her." I do not think it is meant to lift her status to that of a God's divine being, like she is somehow a fourth person of the Trinity. We certainly do not teach that. But She is after all "Blessed" because of her part in the divine plan; She is uniquely greater than all the patriarchs and saints, for she never denied him like Peter, nor ran off naked like John when Jesus was betrayed, nor anyone of the disciples. But of course, which saint ever had the pleasure and pain to bring our savior into the world? If there was any saint in history that Christians respect the most, it certainly is her. I would think a Christian who revered Paul over Mary to be out of their mind in terms of importance... sure Paul wrote most ot he letters that make up the New Testament... but Mary did far more in raising Christ in his youth and her participation during his ministry years.

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

Greetings all:
I'm doing my once in while pop in..:)
My question to my Catholic friends is how credible is the reports of the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Fatima?

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"Question 48. What are Marian apparitions?

An apparition can be an appearance of Jesus, Mary, or the saints. Apparitions are quite different from public divine revelation. Public divine revelation is about God and His plan of salvation. The last public revelation took place with the last apostle, Saint John the Beloved. After his death, public revelation ended. Subsequently, only further definition or clarification made by the teaching office of the Church, known as the magisterium, took place. Public revelation is part of the sacred deposit of faith contained in Sacred Tradition and in sacred word. They are known as doctrines and dogmas, and affirmations in faith are to be our only response to them.

Apparitions belong to private revelations, and one can choose either to believe or to reject them. Even when the Church affirms a certain apparition of Jesus, Mary, or the saints as being authentic, one does not have to accept it. When the church declares an apparition as being authentic, it does so in order to differentiate from false prophesy and, consequently, to aid Christians on their journeys of faith. ...

... It is important to note that there are relatively few apparitions or locutions that are authentic. (Many who have made claims are either misguided at best or deceivers at worst.) The Church declares an apparition only after conducting a rigorous investigation. Ultimately, though, all we need to know in order to attain heaven has already been publicly revealed to the apostles and further defined by the Church." [p. 66-67]

The Catholicism answer book : the 300 most frequently asked questions
Kenneth D. Brighenti Ph.D, Rev.,
Published by Sourcebooks, Inc.
2007, 320 pages
http://pages.prodigy.net/fr.trigilio/CAB%203.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/Catholicism-An...7019007&sr=1-2

Trinity

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

Well, just to clear the air, the question wasn't meant to antagonize, just an honest question. Also, I have done some cursory research myself on the subject, and the literature that the Fatima group refers to Mary in a very formal way (i.e. She and Her, like one would refer to God as He, in the rpoper sense). In the Church, is it common to refer to Mary in such a way?

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"Question 39. Why does it seem like Catholics worship Mary?

Catholics do not worship Mary; rather, we venerate her as the mother of God, giving her first honors. Catholics, like all Christians, worship God alone. The first three commandments focus on our worship of the one true God, his name, and his day. In Latin, the term for the worship of God is latria. In addition to the Commandments, both professions of faith, the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, speak of the belief in one God. Catholic Liturgy, the Holy Sacrifice of the M***, Benediction, the Liturgy of the Hours, and the celebration of the other six sacraments all give worship, glory, and honor to the Triune God. In our doctrine, liturgy, church law, belief and worship of the one God is tantamount to what it means to be Catholic and Christian.

The Church uses the Latin word hyperdulia to indicate the relationship we have with the mother of God. It means that we give first honors after Almighty God to Mary because of her role in salvation history. Hyperdulia is not worship; rather, it is respect we give to an important figure. In American history we give honor and respect to the founding fathers of our country, and we give especially high regard to George Washington, our first president. Similarly, we give first admiration to Mary above all the saints. First, because she said “yes,” or in Latin “fiat,” which means, “thy will be done.” By her affirmative acclamation, she became the mother of God. All of Mary’s ***les, attributes, and privileges center on this theological fact. Second, she is a model for all Christians to follow on how to attain heaven and be close to her
Son. ...

... In American history, after we honor George Washington, then we pay tribute to the other signers of the Cons***ution for how they witnessed to our rights to liberty, life, and the pursuit of happiness. Similarly, dulia is the affection we give to all other saints besides Mary. In our Catholic faith, Saint Joseph is the first to receive dulia. As with hyper-dulia, it is not worship but acclamation of the fact that this person in her life lived the quality of the Gospel to the fullest and is a living testimony of how we can follow Jesus by his living examples and testimony. A Catholic worships only God, and reveres Mary and the saints. [p.58]

Question 47. Why does Mary have so many ***les?

After the worship of the one true God, we honor His chief creation, Mary. She has many ***les because she is the Mother of God. All her attributes, perfections, and privileges result in this most important of all her ***les (mother of God) because she was chosen to bring forth the Savior of the world. The Ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 434 AD solemnly defined her as Theotokos, or the Mother of God. She is the mother of God not because she gave Jesus his divinity but because she gave him his sacred humanity. Another doctrine, the hypostatic Union, defines this miracle concisely: “one divine Person with two natures, divine and human.” Because it is a union of natures in the divine Person, Mary is considered the Mother of God." [p. 65-66]

The Catholicism answer book : the 300 most frequently asked questions
Kenneth D. Brighenti Ph.D, Rev.,
Published by Sourcebooks, Inc.
2007, 320 pages

Trinity

The phrase "Mother of God" (Theotokos) is christological and soteriological, not mariological. To deny Mary this phrase, is to dishonor Christ (denying his true deity), separating the person of the Logos from the person of Jesus (making two separate persons). This is the heresy of Nestorianism, condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Protestants are crypto-nestorians. Read "On the Unity of Christ," by St. Cyril.

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Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

The phrase "Mother of God" (Theotokos) is christological and soteriological, not mariological. To deny Mary this phrase, is to dishonor Christ (denying his true deity), separating the person of the Logos from the person of Jesus (making two separate persons). This is the heresy of Nestorianism, condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Protestants are crypto-nestorians. Read "On the Unity of Christ," by St. Cyril.

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Say what? Speak englowish, well csh.

Hello Pilgrim, RFH!

My, this thread goes back a piece. Though it was first addressing Catholics, I still thought to include something to your recent comment, but first. .

I just wonder upon how you might tend to use your dedication in commentary? That is to say, are you opposed to even hear comments, if they happen to run counter to, or, bring along weight to affirm or not findings the RCC supports?

What would be the likely outcome of your responses; dedication to protect ages-old proclamations mired in respected tradition and ecclesiastical loyalty, or an honest appraisal in the name of the inseparable Christian attributes of unity and growth by Christ based solely upon His word yet being generated by His Spirit in us?

I wonder if you might think it possible for us to put aside and forgive my denominational experience for the sake of that most important decree to collectively consider this faith within?

“13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.” (Colossians 3:13,14)

Or would this be considered heresy too?

God Bless!

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

Greetings all:
I'm doing my once in while pop in..:)
My question to my Catholic friends is how credible is the reports of the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Fatima?

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While Walter Martin was still alive he sent one of his top guys to go to Fatima, and interview the people and talk to everyone, and look into the topic..

On his return the CRI investigator i think was on the radio talking about his conclusions.
I think I remember listening to the show that day, and being very frustrated by the answers i was hearing.

I wanted to hear if the CRI investigator felt that the people who claim to have seen Mary, actually saw 'something"?
I really dont care one way or the other as to what they saw if they saw something, BUT i wanted to know just "Did they see anything?"

However, there is simply no way to know...

There is no way to go back in time and watch what really happened, nor is there a way to get inside a person's memory and see if what they now claim actually happened...

So we are left with only making a "judgement call" as to the truth of the claims.

This then gets mixed up with how the person doing the judging views the catholic church in general?....or how the person feels about the idea that Mary can make an appearance?

Walter Martin was against the idea of appearances by Mary, thus the conclusion Walter would come to is that the people likely did not see anything at all....

I also am skeptical.