The New Perspective on Paul

There has been considerable discussion of the "New Perspective on Paul":

New Perspective on Paul—

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.
Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.

Comments?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There has been considerable discussion of the "New Perspective on Paul":

New Perspective on Paul—

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.
Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.

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That is interesting, thanks for posting it. I didn't know about it.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

That is interesting, thanks for posting it. I didn't know about it.

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Hi Phoenix.

The scholars have realized pitting scriptures against one another is not the way to effective theology.

When they agree that Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law when referencing "the law", "works of the law", or "works"--and not the gospel of Christ--then things begin to harmonize.

The problem being, for one--when Paul refers to "works"--he is usually referring to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law(circumcision, etc)--when James is referring to "works"--he is referring to works under the gospel of Christ.

That kills the faith alone argument, where they run to Paul's reference to Mosaic law verses, whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. It uncovers and exposes the places to hide.

My question now is--where do the faith alone go from there--if indeed it is mainly the Protestant scholars who are taking the New Perspective side?

New Perspective on Paul—

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.
Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.

I read the link...
Basically its just a bunch of word-play and stuff.
They give the pro/con sides.

But in the end,
They all fall back on the standard position that works cant save anyone.



They have a suggestion that the word "grace"can have with it the concept we might call "favor"....as in "I did you a favor,so now you owe me."
(Kinda like the Godfather)

But....thats a bit of a reach.

The standard concept of Grace is "unmerited favor"...and I like that understanding as it fits with the higher level of love .
To do something for another out of no other need than you simply want to do something for another.

Grace should not be turned into "Now you owe me, so pay up!" kinda of concept.


When I do something nice to another person, I do so not because I want something from them, as that makes me just a manipulator, But rather when I do something nice for another person I do it because I want to do something nice for them.



Doing nice things to you is a reflection on myself,and how i was raised.


But if I only did nice things to you because I wanted to trick you into feeling guilty and needing to do something for me?....then my being nice to you is fake...

Im not actually doing something nice to you at all.

My "grace" to you is actually just a trick...
its fake...
It might make me look good in your eyes,but deep down i know Im just tricking you with a faked image of myself.


Here is what I think is the best understanding of the term "GRACE"
To do something nice for another, with no expectation of return or reward....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I read the link...Basically its just a bunch of word-play and stuff.

They give the pro/con sides.

But in the end,

They all fall back on the standard position that works cant save anyone.

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No one here is claiming works saves anyone.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No one here is claiming works saves anyone.

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I'm just telling you what the link is saying...

The link is talking about a few ways some guys have come up with to understand the term we translate as "Grace"

But the problem is that their ideas start to fall apart when you look closer at them.

They hang their whole argument on the term's understanding of "favor"
To them, the understanding of "favor" or doing someone a favor points to being forced to then "owe".

Thisis like when in the movie, the Godfather, where a "favor" would happen that caused the other person to need to balance the scales later by doing something in return.

But the biggest problem I think we all can see in this understanding of the word "favor"is that nothing is being done to anyone else out of just pure love.

Everything is just a forced and fake act between two people.

One is attempting to force the other into doing things that they would not do normally.

Thats not acting out of love at all !
Thats just acting out of self-interest.

Thats just a bunch of manipulations going on that are colored to look like being "nice" to each other, but really there is zero love going on.


Thats the link's ideas about God's grace.


I disagree with that type of thinking...

So what is the correct way to view "works" in connection with salvation?

The answer is like this -

Works are like the sound of the car's motor.

When we work on a car and want to know if its running now correctly?..we start the motor and listen to the sound of it running.

The sound does not help the motor run....but it does show us how the motor is running.

Works are like that in a Christian's life.
Works do not add to salvation,nor help maintain salvation.
But works can be used to tell many things about a person's faith walk.

Thats is how we are to view works...

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So what is the correct way to view "works" in connection with salvation?

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James 2:20-26--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

as I said, a motor that makes no sound is off...

But you dont fix a motor by making its louder motor sounds...LOL


Rather the real sound of the motor can tell you about the motor.

You can tell if the motor is on by listening to the sound of it.
Just as you can tell my faith is very much alive by looking at the works that my faith will cause to happen.

The sound has nothing to do with the motor actually working well, but rather is simply the sign, or the result of how the motor is working.

In the same way my works dont mean I have faith, rather my works are a sign of my faith...my works are caused by my faith.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as I said, a motor that makes no sound is off...

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Just as a faith without works is dead?

James 2:20-26--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

IOW--the faith alone preach salvation through what the Biblical record describes as a faith which is dead.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No one here is claiming works saves anyone.

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Mormon leaders and your doctrines clearly teach that works are what save you.

Salvation and Exaltation Theodore M. Burton April 1972
"Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them."

That sure looks like "works" to me. How would you describe that? Having faith alone?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just as a faith without works is dead?

James 2:20-26--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

IOW--the faith alone preach salvation through what the Biblical record describes as a faith which is dead.

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Mormons teach that faith is necessary, so it must be right.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things*

DId you catch that? Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom have "overcome by faith" (not works) and will receive special blessings, from the Holy Spirit of "promise." The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to those exalted people who had... wait for it...

faith:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have*all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20).

So can you tell us why you have such bitter distaste for teachings found both in the Bible AND your own Church's "scriptures?" Literally HALF of your scriptures teach that those who have "overcome by faith" are exalted with special blessings. I can't figure out why you disparage the doctrine so, in favor of a works based salvation, which is really the "dead faith" you refer to.

Heb 9:13For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Here is a word of caution, from the Lord to you:

Heb 10:37 "In a very little while, he who comes will come, and will not wait.

38But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul."

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There has been considerable discussion of the "New Perspective on Paul":

New Perspective on Paul—

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.
Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.

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Baloney dberrie. You are so obsessive about proving that works somehow save you that you think the "new perspective on Paul" is Christian. It's a heresy. Eph. 2:8-10 was not dealing with Jewish rules and regs, but with WORKS men do to get saved. Mormons are boasters, and they hate that verse. The New Perspective on Paul is the OLD MORMON HERESY of works taught by the false prophet Joey Smith.

See: https://www.gotquestions.org/New-Perspective-Paul.html

Dberrie, you missed your calling - you should be a Roman Catholic. They are masters of creating more and more works a person has to do to be saved.

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Originally Posted by Apologette

Baloney dberrie. You are so obsessive about proving that works somehow save you that you think the "new perspective on Paul" is Christian. It's a heresy. Eph. 2:8-10 was not dealing with Jewish rules and regs, but with WORKS men do to get saved. Mormons are boasters, and they hate that verse. The New Perspective on Paul is the OLD MORMON HERESY of works taught by the false prophet Joey Smith.

See: https://www.gotquestions.org/New-Perspective-Paul.html

Dberrie, you missed your calling - you should be a Roman Catholic. They are masters of creating more and more works a person has to do to be saved.

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Have you considered Paul's long list?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

We need to understand who was Paul writing to? Born again believers. Who was James writing to? Jews. The Jews always believed in works of the law. Believers in Jesus Christ believe in the gospel of grace which Paul said he was taught by Jesus Christ and not by man. (faith alone in Christ alone) We need to learn how to read the Bible. James and Paul were writing to 2 different groups of people. Therefore it is incorrect to pit the one against the other.

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Originally Posted by hogan60

We need to understand who was Paul writing to? Born again believers. Who was James writing to? Jews. The Jews always believed in works of the law. Believers in Jesus Christ believe in the gospel of grace which Paul said he was taught by Jesus Christ and not by man. (faith alone in Christ alone)

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There is but one mention of "faith alone" in the entire Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

In the gospel of Jesus Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

According to Paul--this is the standard:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

IOW--the "works of the Law"--IE, circumcision, etc--is no longer required. The gospel of Jesus Christ revolves around keeping His commandments--not rituals such as circumcision.

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We need to learn how to read the Bible. James and Paul were writing to 2 different groups of people. Therefore it is incorrect to pit the one against the other.

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Whoever one believes Paul or James was writing to--they both taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the only way to harmonize the scriptures.

When Paul used the terms "works"--"works of the Law", "Law", etc--that was a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not the gospel.

When we accept that--the scriptures harmonize.

When James used the term "works"--he was referring to acts of obedience to the gospel.

As Peter stated--Paul was hard to understand--and I believe it is due to his uses of terms.

Paul believed there was no obedience outside of obeying the commandments:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you reveal to us how you believe one could avoid Paul's testimony of condemnation above--and not obey the commandments?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Phoenix.


The problem being, for one--when Paul refers to "works"--he is usually referring to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law(circumcision, etc)--when James is referring to "works"--he is referring to works under the gospel of Christ.

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No, James was not referring to the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was writing to the Jews. Nowhere did James ever mention the death, burial and resurrection of Christ which was the heart of the Gospel that Paul taught. (Christ and Him crucified) These Jewish believers James writes to believed that Jesus was the Messiah and was coming back soon to set up his earthly kingdom in Jerusalem. No mention of the cross or Christ' blood sacrifice. We need to remember that those little letters near the end of the New Testament: James, Peter, etc are known as Jewish epistles. They were not written to Christians.

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Originally Posted by hogan60

No, James was not referring to the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was writing to the Jews.

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Hi Hogan:

Just a note here, Hogan--James, along with all the apostles--were Jews. They taught the gospel of Jesus Christ--not the Mosaic Law:

James 1:11-12---King James Version (KJV)
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the gr***, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Hogan--there was no crown of life under the Mosaic Law.

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Nowhere did James ever mention the death, burial and resurrection of Christ which was the heart of the Gospel that Paul taught. (Christ and Him crucified) These Jewish believers James writes to believed that Jesus was the Messiah and was coming back soon to set up his earthly kingdom in Jerusalem. No mention of the cross or Christ' blood sacrifice. We need to remember that those little letters near the end of the New Testament: James, Peter, etc are known as Jewish epistles. They were not written to Christians.

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James 2:1-3--King James Version (KJV)
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your ***embly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is but one mention of "faith alone" in the entire Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

In the gospel of Jesus Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

According to Paul--this is the standard:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

IOW--the "works of the Law"--IE, circumcision, etc--is no longer required. The gospel of Jesus Christ revolves around keeping His commandments--not rituals such as circumcision.



Whoever one believes Paul or James was writing to--they both taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the only way to harmonize the scriptures.

When Paul used the terms "works"--"works of the Law", "Law", etc--that was a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not the gospel.

When we accept that--the scriptures harmonize.

When James used the term "works"--he was referring to acts of obedience to the gospel.

As Peter stated--Paul was hard to understand--and I believe it is due to his uses of terms.

Paul believed there was no obedience outside of obeying the commandments:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you reveal to us how you believe one could avoid Paul's testimony of condemnation above--and not obey the commandments?

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Have you ever noticed that Peter and the 11 never once mention the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as part of the gospel. Peter and the others preached to Jews only. He tells Paul to to preach to gentiles. Those Jews that Peter wrote to were still going to the temple, sacrificing animals, practicing circumcision, etc. Yet Paul taught that none of those things save us. Its faith in Christ and his blood sacrifice alone that saves.

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Originally Posted by hogan60

Have you ever noticed that Peter and the 11 never once mention the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as part of the gospel.

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Hi Hogan:

Acts 2:31-36---King James Version (KJV)
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know ***uredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ

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Peter and the others preached to Jews only.

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While it is true--the gospel was not taken to the Gentiles until after about 10 years following the death burial, and resurrection of Christ--it was Peter himself who God appeared to in Acts10 and commanded to include the Gentiles--who Peter quickly went to--and baptized them, being Gentiles. The church accused Peter of wrongdoing in Acts11--which Peter defended with his recounting of the heavenly vision in Acts10--and the subsequent events which occurred with the Gentiles, and them receiving the Holy Ghost--which, when related--the church agreed:

Acts 11:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

And thus, we find Paul appearing on the scene--ready to take the gospel to the Gentiles, as an apostle.

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Yet Paul taught that none of those things save us. Its faith in Christ and his blood sacrifice alone that saves.

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No one has disputed that.

Only that it's those who obey Christ as the ones who receive of God's grace unto life--as a personal reception:

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Just a note here, Hogan--James, along with all the apostles--were Jews. They taught the gospel of Jesus Christ--not the Mosaic Law:

James 1:11-12---King James Version (KJV)
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the gr***, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Hogan--there was no crown of life under the Mosaic Law.



James 2:1-3--King James Version (KJV)
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your ***embly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

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This crown of life is not eternal life, but rather it is for those who persevere during trials and testing. It’s going to be one of the rewards for people who have had to suffer for their faith. James wrote to Jews who were scattered abroad. They fled Jerusalem because of Saul's persecution. Doesn't matter if they were under the law or not. They were Jews who believed for salvation that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.

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Originally Posted by hogan60

This crown of life is not eternal life, but rather it is for those who persevere during trials and testing.

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Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

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Originally Posted by hogan60

This crown of life is not eternal life, but rather it is for those who persevere during trials and testing.....

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Hogan60......does the 60 stand for anything?