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You previously said, "The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil."
Who is the "whom" you refer to?
Why ...All non-LDS who are Christians, of course. I would have thought that was obvious.
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Sadly my point, untouched by you for some reason we'll have to get to later, is that taking His will out of the equation altogether still, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God to be the source of evil. I'll re-explain since you have failed to address it. God conceived of every evil act that each of his creations would do before He created them out of nothing. Its really that simple. Evil started in God's conception as a result. It did not start in any particular act a man or the devil did...it was before they/we even existed.
Well here we have a perfect illustration of your problem. You think you can blame God for things that are not in his will. That is the fundamental problem here, and you have not explained (much less "re-explained") how you can even pretend to blame God for evil just becuase he knew it would happen.
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BH>>Now let me explain your problem in a little more detail. You have ***UMED that God's knowledge of what philosophers recognize as "necessary truths" is the same thing as his knowledge of what we call "contingent truths". <snip>
S>This is a clear obfuscation, BH, just like your desperate flailing molinism reference. I haven't ***umed anything about what God considers true. Get back on topic if you will.
"Obfuscation"?? What's the matter Stem, could you not understand the big words. This is simple. There are what we recognize as "necessary truths" and "contingent truths". They are not the same thing. Your hand-waving dismissal does not sustain your accusation here.
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Weak ****ogy would fit best. Your ****ogy rests on the notion that me having offspring is akin to God creating everything out of nothing in terms of knowing what the offspring or creature will do.
If that is the best you can do, then you have nothing. The fact is, in the context of knowing our children will do evil things, my ****ogy is sufficient. God knew that we would sin, just like you know that your children will sin. Your children did not exist before you procreated them. Whether they were created out of the myth of "eternal matter" or not is irrelevant to the ****ogy.
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That's total obfuscation again, BH. This has nothing to do with knowing something would fail to be perfect but has everything to do with God conceiving of each and every evil deed that would be practiced before He went ahead and created. You are continually missing the point, most likely because you haven't thought these things through, but possibly because you are trying to obscure things so they don't seem so bad.
Once again, having no actual argument to refute my position, all you can do is demonstrate your difficulty understanding my rather simple and obvious point by calling it an obfuscation. Furthermore, your rhetoric is getting increasingly desperate (as usual). Knowing people would commit evil acts in advance has EVERYTHING to do with knowing that people would commit evil acts. Yes, God went ahead and created - but he did not commit the evil acts. YOU actually commit your own sins, Stem. Just because God knew you would sin does not mean that he created the sin you comm***ed.
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This makes no sense and outlines your desperation. My offspring are not created by me ex nihilo. So your vain attempt to describe it as a non sequitur, misspelling notwithstanding but an obvious error showing your i-gnorance, is erroneous.
While your opinion is predictable, you have failed to substantiate it with a valid argument. Whether you created them out of existing matter or not is IRRELEVANT; the FACT is they did not exist such that they COULD sin and then, AFTER you procreated them, they did exist and DID sin, just as you knew they would. Using your mistaken logic in pretending that God must be held accountable for all evil (on the Christian view), YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children.
Or are you somehow above the judgment that you require me to place on God?
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You have misunderstood from the beginning. I never suggested I'm responsible for my offspring's sins. My goodness what are you trying to say that God procreated all of us even though we in some way already existed? You're so all over the place, it's adorable.
I understood since before you even asked the question, Stem. And YOU are the one who has just demonstrated that YOU do not even understand what you just read: I never said that YOU suggested you are responsible. Learn to read. I am the one telling YOU that according to your damaged logic, if God is responsible for sin because he created the people who commit it knowing in advance that they will sin, then YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children because you procreated them, knowing in advance that they would sin. You are not above the judgment that you place on God as you misrepresent the Christian view.
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Wow you missed it completely. Hopefully if you actually read what I write this time you'll get it.
More meaningless hand waving dismissals from the Mormon. Your empty rhetoic followed by NOTHING where you SHOULD be substantiating your accusations is all anyone needs to see to conclude that you are now shooting blanks. That did not take long at all.
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BH you are either woefully i-gnorant of LDS teaching or even more woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your own beliefs. Either way your desperate flailing here is adorable to watch, if nothing else. My offspring, according to my beliefs, exist whether I procreate or not. That's a huge difference that you just don't seem to get. We are highlighting how your beliefs are problematic and you just don't seem to get it, most likely because you haven't thought about it. I'm trying to help you, but if you obtusely refuse to listen then you'll most likely remain woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your beliefs.
As usual, you post no actual argument, just hand-waving dismissals and repe***ions of your claims. Where you SHOULD be offering reasoned arguments in support of your claims, all you are doing is repeating them. But ...This is the sum total of the state of all Mormon apologetics, so no one should be surprised.
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Oh, BH, its not that hard to figure out. Notably you haven't tried to figure your own religions beliefs out so its no surprise you can't figure mine out. To me, God did not create ex nihilo, therefore even though He knew the deeds I would do, my existence was. Therefore my deeds whether good or evil were going to happen outside of his control. I know you'll try your best to focus in on my beliefs in some unrelated fashion to get out of it all, but let's not get completely silly here as you often do.
To you, God is an exalted man who operates under laws that existed before he could obey them. You think the God of the Bible has his own Gods, despite the fact that he tells you in perfectly obvious terms that he does not know any other Gods.
Meanwhile, that God created ex-nihlo is irrelevant to the issue here. The God of the Bible is transcendent over creation and thus not subject to its confines and limitations. Just because God fore-knew that evil would exist, that does not mean that he performed the evil that has occurred. Your attempt to misrepresent the Christian view and then make me account for your misrepresentation has failed. The Christian view is that YOU were created in the image of God with free will and YOU chose to sin; God did not cause you to sin.
-BH
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