Is your Salvation Arbitrary or Works-Based?

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

The Bible doesn't give minute details of the mans life, but devout enough that God chose him, a devout man to God, to appear unto him and make him the sign that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles.

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And prior to Peter coming to them what knowledge did they have about Jesus and what his commandments were?

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

If you continue in this manner of discussion then I will not continue to carry this discussion on with you. Stop with the deceptive tactics.

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Because you know that it is ridiculous to ***ume that they had any real knowledge about who Jesus really was and His commandments.

I see so now you are trying to deny what the scripture says which is that they received the Holy Spirit. It looks like you are the one trying to deny scripture.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Again no specific order of obedience necessary.

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Is that really what Mormonism teaches? That a person can receive the Holy Spirit prior to doing works including baptism? I never taught this false concept when I was an LDS missionary.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

. . .I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works. I am not saved by faith either. I am saved by grace given to me by Christ. . .

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So what is required for exaltation if it is not by faith or works?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Where in that verse does it say work FOR your salvation?

Notice it say work OUT your salvation NOT work FOR salvation.

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Again being deceptive. Before I respond again post were I said "work for salvation" rather than work out your salvation. If you can't I expect your apology will be forth coming.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Is that really what Mormonism teaches? That a person can receive the Holy Spirit prior to doing works including baptism? I never taught this false concept when I was an LDS missionary.

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I think in special cases when God chooses He can give them the Holy Spirit before baptism. LDS do baptism as a general rule, but don't rule out the exceptions which is clearly recorded in the Bible on special occasions, such as the allowance of the Gospel to be delivered to Gentiles.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Because you know that it is ridiculous to ***ume that they had any real knowledge about who Jesus really was and His commandments.

I see so now you are trying to deny what the scripture says which is that they received the Holy Spirit. It looks like you are the one trying to deny scripture.

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I did not deny they received the Holy Spirit, my whole argument is based on them receiving the Holy Spirit, and why. Because Cornelius followed the laws of God, the true God as far as he had been taught. Are you saying that no body was able to be devout to God prior to Christ? This is just getting silly now.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Huge difference? Really? Let's use the KJV which is your official scripture

Ephesians 2:8-9
8*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9*Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The KJV says "not of works" weren't you aware of that? I guess not. Now tell me why you think that works contribute for salvation when Paul clearly says that it is not of works?

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Because in conjunction with verse 8 he is pointing out that it is not us who saves us but Christ. Just because we follow His commandments we are not to get a big head and think that somehow we are going to get into Heaven without Christ. That we cannot grant ourselves entry into Heaven like some of the faith alone here grant themselves into Heaven. Just like the Jews thought they did not need Christ because they were descendents of Abraham, we are not to depend on man, but rely on God.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Again being deceptive. Before I respond again post were I said "work for salvation" rather than work out your salvation. If you can't I expect your apology will be forth coming.

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The verse that you posted does not say work FOR your salvation. It says work out your salvation and this is speaking to those who are already saved. Works do not contribute FOR salvation and you have not proven otherwise thus far nor will you ever because that Bible teaches that works do not contribute for salvation.

You know full well that mormons work for salvation/exaltation. It seems like you are trying to deny this fact.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I think in special cases when God chooses He can give them the Holy Spirit before baptism. LDS do baptism as a general rule, but don't rule out the exceptions which is clearly recorded in the Bible on special occasions, such as the allowance of the Gospel to be delivered to Gentiles.

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Nowhere in Mormonism does it teach that a person can receive the Holy Spirit PRIOR to doing works such as baptism and the model clearly laid out in mormonism that baptism precedes the reception of the Holy Spirit.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Because Cornelius followed the laws of God, the true God as far as he had been taught. Are you saying that no body was able to be devout to God prior to Christ? This is just getting silly now.

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The one who is being silly is you for thinking that Cornelius etc knew about the gospel of Christ and followed that gospel.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Because in conjunction with verse 8 he is pointing out that it is not us who saves us but Christ. Just because we follow His commandments we are not to get a big head and think that somehow we are going to get into Heaven without Christ. That we cannot grant ourselves entry into Heaven like some of the faith alone here grant themselves into Heaven. Just like the Jews thought they did not need Christ because they were descendents of Abraham, we are not to depend on man, but rely on God.

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Ephesians 2:8-9
8*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9*Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You are not being honest here Trueblue. It says clearly that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. Verse 8 confirms the same thing so I am not sure why you appealed to it. You keep wanting to tell me that salvation/exaltation is of works in addition to faith and that is a false gospel and that is one of the reasons that Christians don't believe Mormons are Christian.

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Clearly you are not reading my posts, because I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works. I am not saved by faith either. I am saved by grace given to me by Christ.

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Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

When is God grace sufficient for you according to Moroni 10:32?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The one who is being silly is you for thinking that Cornelius etc knew about the gospel of Christ and followed that gospel.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

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I did not say He knew the Gospel of Christ, else Peter would not have preached to him. He was a devout man of God. If you are going to say that there was not a single person who lived from Adam to Christ who was devout to God then this is silly. Now that you have put words in my mouth and tried to change the meaning of what I am saying we are done with this. You can make yourself look foolish with someone else. Do you really think that people who read these posts are going to believe what you put and think I was talking about the Gospel of Christ? Do you really think that not a single person living prior to Christ could not be devout to God and obedient? Done with the games, Billy. I'm not responding to your posts in this thread anymore.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The one who is being silly is you for thinking that Cornelius etc knew about the gospel of Christ and followed that gospel.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

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never mind repost

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Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I did not say He knew the Gospel of Christ, else Peter would not have preached to him. He was a devout man of God. If you are going to say that there was not a single person who lived from Adam to Christ who was devout to God then this is silly. Now that you have put words in my mouth and tried to change the meaning of what I am saying we are done with this. You can make yourself look foolish with someone else. Do you really think that people who read these posts are going to believe what you put and think I was talking about the Gospel of Christ? Do you really think that not a single person living prior to Christ could not be devout to God and obedient? Done with the games, Billy. I'm not responding to your posts in this thread anymore.

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You are the one who is playing games. You likely have realized that your argument has run out of steam and that you can't defend your position. Bottom line is that we don't work to receive salvation, grace, or the Holy Spirit.

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Originally Posted by maklelan

.....This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based..

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They once asked Jesus what must we do to work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said that if we believe in him, we have done "the" work of God.
So what Jesus is saying is that yes, there is a work that we must do, (if you can call it a work that is.) and that single and all important work is to have faith.

Thus we dont have to worry about all the things we might want to 'do" or "perform" in order to earn our salvation or all the things we might be tempted to think help "maintain" our salvation.

All we are asked to do is to have faith in Jesus who has already done all the things we needed....have faith in him....for we are saved only by Grace though FAITH, and not by works!

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Originally Posted by theway

No! that merely begs the question, because if it is God’s sovereign will for all to be saved, Then why is it, everybody is not saved?
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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John 6 says that only those who the Father calls come to Christ.

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Originally Posted by Apologette

John 6 says that only those who the Father calls come to Christ.

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"only"?

you might want to check the text on that.....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"only"?

you might want to check the text on that.....

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Is it not the Father's will that all men come to Jesus and be receive life? Still He knows those that will respond to Him as He knows those that will refuse.. Since He knows those that will respond He calls ALL those who will come to the Son.. This is an A=B and B=C so A=C kind of response.. IHS jim