No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Mesenja, the bullseye is the Bible This seems so clear to me,I can't understand how you are missing this. You are getting it backwards. You are aiming for a church such as the LDS church and then going to the Bible to get proof texts to support your church,rather that going to the Bible to get your doctrine and then comparing the church to that standard. You are trying to focus between variations within the Protestant faith OR between Protestants and Catholicism yet your religion is clear to the right of norm. Instead of quibbling between A and B you should focus your attention to why your beliefs are completely outside of Biblical Christianity. That should be your focus.

A (Biblical Standard)
----->Church B
------------->Church C
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>P (Mormonism)

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If you aim for Church B which I ***ume is any one of the myriad Protestant churches or Church C which I ***ume is the Catholic church then you wont hit the biblical bullseye on the Christian target.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

If you aim for Church B which I ***ume is any one of the myriad Protestant churches or Church C which I ***ume is the Catholic church then you wont hit the biblical bullseye on the Christian target.

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You are absolutely correct. The good news is that if A is the standard then B (Protestant) is a aweful lot better than P (Mormonism), wouldn't you agree?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

False religions usually have bits of truth mixed with the falsehood. If this were not the case then very few people would be caught up within it's grasp. As I have noted before there is slight variation within each group (i.e. Mormonism and Christianity). I see that each group as a circle instead of a dot. However,I see these two circle as not overlapping.

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Jim said that "Sorry but there is no entering your truth scale unless the condition I stated are met first. Unless you want to say A is absolute truth and Z is absolute lie. In which case there is no letter between then. If you back away from truth you fall immediately into LIES. All truth or all lies. There is no half way. A half truth is still nothing more than a lie." You contradicted this by saying that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible." This is a bit more than agreeing on the essentials and having the freedom to disagree on the non essentials is it not?

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Jim said that "Sorry but there is no entering your truth scale unless the condition I stated are met first. Unless you want to say A is absolute truth and Z is absolute lie. In which case there is no letter between then. If you back away from truth you fall immediately into LIES. All truth or all lies. There is no half way. A half truth is still nothing more than a lie." You contradicted this by saying that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible." This is a bit more than agreeing on the essentials and having the freedom to disagree on the non essentials is it not?

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Can you restate your point--it came across to me as rambling and I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You are absolutely correct. The good news is that if A is the standard then B (Protestant) is a awfully lot better than P (Mormonism), wouldn't you agree?

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It's not a matter of my disagreeing or agreeing with you on this point. Either there is one way for salvation or conflicting and contradictory doctrines are acceptable. Either the ordinances are a specific channel of divine grace or they are important but not essential. Either Christ established one church which is visible and where doctrines matter or he established an invisible church in which all believers,regardless of denomination,are members and doctrines are not important.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

It's not a matter of my disagreeing or agreeing with you on this point. Either there is one way for salvation or conflicting and contradictory doctrines are acceptable.

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This is an excellent point on your point because it shows your error. Mainstream Christianity with rare exceptions is in agreement on salvation. So your statement "conflicting and contradictory doctrines are acceptable" is completely a straw man argument and is completely false. The Bible is clear on the doctrine of salvation. Within scripture some doctrine are extremely clear and some doctrine are more vague, we may differ somewhat in the vague areas.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Either the ordinances are a specific channel of divine grace or they are important but not essential.

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You are inferring in priesthood authority here. Show me anywhere in the NT where any of the NT members held the Aaronic or Melchezedek priesthood besides Christ.

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Originally Posted by Vlad III

So says James Banta:

"Unless you want to say A is absolute truth and z is absolute lie.. In which case there is no letter between then.. If you back away fro truth you fall immediately into LIES.. All truth or all lies.. There is no half way.. IHS jim "

So now the big question is, if others agree that you are either 100% true or 100% false, how do you reconcile people that hold a belief about Jesus that might not be held by others? Are they therefore in 100% error?

If a Baptist person believes that Jesus might've been married on earth, does that make him 100% in error about Jesus, on every issue, so as to merit God sending him to Hell for eternity?

How do LDS-critics like James Banta justify having such extremist views and not see how such extremism might very well destroy their own theological paradigm if applied logically to all religions, not just Mormons.

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If aBaptist hold false doctrine about the nature and Person of God they are 100% in error YES.. There is no salvation in any thing or any one other that Jesus.. For instance if you believe thatthere is anything you can do that makes you acceptable to God you are in error and will be ****ed.. This is justifed in the Bible..

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

And from Jesus Himself:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And who does the Bible say that Jesus is

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Anything that teaches Jesus is less than this in any way is 100% in error.. Joseph Smith and all who follow his teachings are in serious error!!! IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Vlad III

I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?

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It is so clearly spelled out that a person must close his eyes and ears not to know ablot it:

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

All things, all powers, all dominions.. What is there about all things you can't understand? You are so filled with the teachings of a prophet who spoke in the name of false gods that you can't hear God's truth from the Bible.. All things means Satan as will as a families pet dog..

I have explained the suffering of Jesus to you before and you rejected it. Here your own quote agrees with what I have been saying about the nature of God all alone and all you can think of doing with it is to try to belittle the Bible.. And you said you believe it.. That sound like you are not being truthful, again! Jesus is the Only Person who ever lived who could make an eternal sacrifice for sin.. He is God and by nature Omnipresent.. But your mind can't or won't believe Him.. That is your failing not His..
IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Jim never even entertained the thought that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible". Oh no in Jim's world everything is measured in absolutes. It is either the truth or a lie.




Where in this quote is there room to agree on "core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians" and disagree on other issues that are not "clearly laid out by God in his word"? According to Jim this is like drinking "a full gl*** of filth". Remember he said that "There is no half way".

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So what doctrines does the Church disagree on? List them and I will show you thatyou are again way off base.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

It is so clearly spelled out that a person must close his eyes and ears not to know ablot it:

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

All things, all powers, all dominions.. What is there about all things you can't understand? You are so filled with the teachings of a prophet who spoke in the name of false gods that you can't hear God's truth from the Bible.. All things means Satan as will as a families pet dog..

I have explained the suffering of Jesus to you before and you rejected it. Here your own quote agrees with what I have been saying about the nature of God all alone and all you can think of doing with it is to try to belittle the Bible.. And you said you believe it.. That sound like you are not being truthful, again! Jesus is the Only Person who ever lived who could make an eternal sacrifice for sin.. He is God and by nature Omnipresent.. But your mind can't or won't believe Him.. That is your failing not His..
IHS jim

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What are you talking about? You always throw in 12 false arguments when trying to defend one. Too much time to try and refute all of your false attacks here. Just suffice it to say we believe Jesus and all he said and did.

Vlad: According to what I know of Mormonism, you DO NOT turn to Jesus for your salvation. Your church teaches works for you to gain it, not depending upon our Savior at all. NO amount of good works will save a soul. God could care less about you claiming, "I attended all my meetings, I did my temple work, I paid a full ***he, I helped my neighbor, I lived a good life!"
Can you see what I do? It is ALL about you, I, I, I; a real "I" problem. "For by grace ye are saved, and not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, lest any man should boast." Now tell me how works can save you? There is one God, and He is the only one which we need to concern ourselves with. Putting down someone, to make yourself look good, only shows you have an inferiority complex. Believe me, I've taken many cl***es in psychology to know. Are you so afraid of researching your faith or are you going to remain in the dark and allow others to think for you. Nothing wrong in learning new things, we're never to old to learn. It's when we stop that our minds begin to decline.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The key to answering your question is in your own statement above. The LDS church HAS "blatant false teachings" about Jesus, God the Father, and the gospel. So in this sense it is easy to spot truth from fiction.

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Vlad has no idea of differences between the Church and a church.. The Church is 100% true. Not one error is held in Her teachings. While a church often teaches many false doctrines. These are NOT the TRUE CHURCH. There are often members of the Church that worship God in them but all these churches are in error in some doctrines... If you would, because they will never believe me tell these cultists what the doctrines of the Church are.. Just as a hint: I see them as the nature of the true God and holding the laws of Love and Faith.. Other churches have much more involved in being members.. Because of that they will never be considered THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Vlad III

What are you talking about? You always throw in 12 false arguments when trying to defend one. Too much time to try and refute all of your false attacks here. Just suffice it to say we believe Jesus and all he said and did.

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I know you can't understand statements like Jesus created ALL things.. That is too hard for you to understand.. "All" is a word that is inclusive of everything.. If it exists Jesus created it.. You either don't believe Satan exists or you doubt the word of God on the subject PROVING that at least one mormon who calls himself Vlad on forums that question his church as not being truthful. He denies the Jesus of the Bible.. The Bible says that Jesus created all things even to the point of creating the spirits of all men, and doing that within them.. You are contradicting yourself as all with eyes to see with can see..
IHS jim

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Originally Posted by Vlad III

You say false religions have truth and falsehoods. But the issue is whether or not there is a religion that is 100% true WITHOUT any falsehoods. And falsehoods can be simple opinions on doctrine that are not true, not necessarily blatent false teachings. So James is saying that the church is either 100% true or 100% false.

So how do you reconcile a church where there are varying degrees of opinions that may or may not be actual truth? Are those churches now 100% FALSE or is there room for speculation, conjecture, and opinions on issues?

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Foolish idea about what THE TRUE CHURCH is.. It's not the Baptists, not the Lutherans, It's not a nondenominational church.. The true Church is the body of Jesus. This is the Church that ONLY JESUS can add you to as he saves you (Acts 2:47).. Good heavens you have no idea what the Church even is! IHS jim

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Originally Posted by urloony

False compared to what? Your dogma?

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Yes, because that dogma in the Bible.. IHS jim

I will paraphrase it for clarity and convenience. The Bible is clear on the doctrine of salvation except for the doctrines that are vague. Here is the translation of what you just said. The doctrine of salvation is one of the inessentials that we can disagree on. You have also just contradicted yourself in the same sentence. First you said that it is false that there is any "conflicting and contradictory doctrines" then you reverse yourself and say "some doctrine are more vague,we may differ somewhat in the vague areas." Either the Bible is clear or it is vague on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

This is an excellent point on your part because it shows your error. Mainstream Christianity with rare exceptions is in agreement on salvation. So your statement "conflicting and contradictory doctrines are acceptable" is completely a straw man argument and is completely false. The Bible is clear on the doctrine of salvation. Within scripture some doctrine are extremely clear and some doctrine are more vague,we may differ somewhat in the vague areas.

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No BillyRay I am not alluding to priesthood authority here. I am making the argument that the Bible teaches us thhat certain ordinances are essential for our salvation.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You are inferring in priesthood authority here. Show me anywhere in the NT where any of the New Testament members held the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood besides Christ.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Vlad, your statement above is completely false.

Colossians 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

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So, did Jesus create God the Father?

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Originally Posted by James Banta

So what doctrines does the Church disagree on? List them and I will show you that you are again way off base. IHS Jim

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What you can show me is how you agree with Billy. Billy said that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible." while you said that this was ****ogous to drinking "a full gl*** of filth."

Billy said that there are "core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians" and we agree on the essentials we claim the right to disagree on other issues that are not "clearly laid out by God in his word" while you took the diametrically opposite view and argued that "If you back away from truth you fall immediately into LIES. All truth or all lies. There is no half way. A half truth is still nothing more than a lie."

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Originally Posted by Vlad III

LDS can reconcile thei belief about Jesus with the Bible quite easily. So it appears your argument is about whose interpretation of the Bible is the one that is 100% inerrant. Anything else and you have a 100% false belief about Jesus according to at least one LDS-critic.

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Oh yes I have seen how well mormon doctrine lines up with the Bible..
1. Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of a created god. The Bible says that He is God and create all things..
2. Mormonism teaches that Joseph Smith is a prophet but he taught in the name of other gods :

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit, and these three cons***ute
three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it? (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474)

How does this fit in what Jesus said about the nature of God?

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

It is clear that if Smith was a prophet, he wasn't a prophet of YHWH.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Oh yes I have seen how well mormon doctrine lines up with the Bible..
1. Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of a created god. The Bible says that He is God and create all things..
2. Mormonism teaches that Joseph Smith is a prophet but he taught in the name of other gods :

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit, and these three cons***ute
three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it? (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474)

How does this fit in what Jesus said about the nature of God?

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

It is clear that if Smith was a prophet, he wasn't a prophet of YHWH.. IHS jim

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as I said, LDS can reconcile all our beliefs about Jesus with the Bible. So it becomes a matter of interpretation of the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Vlad III

Oh, you are looking for specific verses.

No, there isn't a specific verse that states what you are looking for above. Just like there's no specific verse that says Jesus is the creator of Satan. But we look at the teaching as a whole and we can reasonably and logically make conclusions.

For example, we can rightfully conclude that Jesus is a spiritual child of the Father, since Jesus even refers to the Father as HIS father. And we also can conlude that eternal unions of man and woman are of God (Adam & Eve) and we know that it is a law of God to be married in order to have offspring. So again a logical conclusion can be made that the Father also has an eternal companion.

Now the question is, can you show a LDS person BIBLICALLY that these things cannot be understood as the LDS see them?

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The logical thing to do here is to beleive what God says in the Bible.. It says:

Isaiah 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

\
Is not a female God still a God besides YHWH? See you miss the fact that in the scripture only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are called God.. Any other is a false god and an idol.. Mormons worship and idol created in the mind of Joseph Smith.. Tis is not the God of the Bible but only one Smith made up ex nihilo.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

...Smith made up ex nihilo.. IHS jim

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lol...."ex nihilo"...:p

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Originally Posted by Vlad III

LOL...you DO agree with me, since that is what I've been saying all along. Nothing in the Bible REFUTES LDS doctrine.

For example, baptism for the dead is mentioned in the Bible, but only the LDS understand it in its true context. The verse in the Bible about it SUPPORTS the LDS concept, not REFUTES it.

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I will agree that some group in the New Testament era were conducting baptisms for the dead.. Paul used that practice to teach the doctrine of the resurrection.. By He never admitted that such a baptism was a Church doctrine.. Rather he separated the Church from the practice. It is like James in chapter 2 verse 19 that the Devils even believe that God is one. That doesn't mean that those that believe that are devils.. Mormon doctrine such as Baptism for the dead are stu.pidly snatched out of their context and made to mean something they have never taught..

I have already shown you that the Bible REFUTES the most important of all mormon teachings.. That God is a creation of yet an other god who is also a creation of yet another god.. I have shown you that God (Jesus) created ALL things.. Not just a few but ALL, even is those things are invisible.. Humm would that include any other universe or dimensions that some people say are real? YES! The Bible doesn't support these ridiculous false doctrines of mormonism! IHS jim

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---According to the Bible, Jesus was not a candidate for inheriting His Father's kingdom until AFTER He had become a man and had the experiences He experienced on this planet. That probably contradicts what your preacher told you, so you need to decide whether you're gonna believe your preacher, or the Bible.

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That is strange because He is said to be the God that created it all (Col 1:16). That would mean that He owns it by right of creation.. If There is only one God as Moses taught and Jesus confirmed, and Jesus is God then He is the owner of ALL things.. He is not a creation but the one and only creator.. You are the one who needs to decide whether to believe the teaching of Joseph Smith or the WORD OF GOD.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

The Old Testament teaches that a child would be born of a virgin, and that the child would be called the mighty God, among other things.

The New Testament teaches that the Great I am became a mortal baby who became a man when He grew into manhood, and that He even referred to Himself as the son of man whose father was the only true God.

What Bible are YOU using, that has those parts deleted?

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I guess we read one that you don't like because we see that verse calling Jesus the Mighty God, The everlasting FATHER.. But you didn't want to use the whole verse because it contradicted your whole POV.. You real should try to believe all the Bible not just the part you can rip out of context to make them sound like you believe in the Bible message.. IHS jim