The Mormon Dilemma

The following, originally posted at https://theologyarchaeology.wordpres...ormon-dilemma/ (My website), is partially in response to Big Julie's whine about how people do not discuss with Mormons. The problem is not that people do not discuss with them, they do not discuss any serious issue with non-Mormons and probably not with other Mormons. They hide from them . The following is an issue they cannot run and hide from.


They Mormons here said that they accept the KJV Bible, not just the Smith translated version, and read it a lot. They do quote from it a lot as well.But they have a problem. if they accept that non-Mormon version then they have a serious conflict.

The Mormons state that Smith claimed to have been visited by and talked to God the father in his initial call to restore the 'true' church. Well the KJV and other English versions of the Bible have Moses and God talking about the former being able to see God physically. God then tells Moses that no one can see him or they would die. God was very clear on this yet Joseph Smith makes his astounding claim and lived to tell about it.

The dilemma is since the Mormons accept the non-Mormon KJV Bible they are faced with either God lying and no one will die if they see him or Smith lying about his encounter with God. If God lied then the god the Mormons serve is a sinner in need of a savior and disqualifies himself as god. If Smith lied then Mormonism is founded upon a lie and is not a valid church or alternative religion.The Mormons cannot have it both ways, one or the other had to lie.No one can claim that the KJV was mistranslated for all ancient mss. support God's side and none support Smith and there are no ancient alternative mss. even coming close to Smith's ideas

So the Mormons face a difficult problem, they are either serving a false god, one who will lie to them, or their founder lied to them and they have no god to serve.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

The following, originally posted at https://theologyarchaeology.wordpres...ormon-dilemma/ (My website), is partially in response to Big Julie's whine about how people do not discuss with Mormons. The problem is not that people do not discuss with them, they do not discuss any serious issue with non-Mormons and probably not with other Mormons. They hide from them . The following is an issue they cannot run and hide from.


They Mormons here said that they accept the KJV Bible, not just the Smith translated version, and read it a lot. They do quote from it a lot as well.But they have a problem. if they accept that non-Mormon version then they have a serious conflict.

The Mormons state that Smith claimed to have been visited by and talked to God the father in his initial call to restore the 'true' church. Well the KJV and other English versions of the Bible have Moses and God talking about the former being able to see God physically. God then tells Moses that no one can see him or they would die. God was very clear on this yet Joseph Smith makes his astounding claim and lived to tell about it.

The dilemma is since the Mormons accept the non-Mormon KJV Bible they are faced with either God lying and no one will die if they see him or Smith lying about his encounter with God. If God lied then the god the Mormons serve is a sinner in need of a savior and disqualifies himself as god. If Smith lied then Mormonism is founded upon a lie and is not a valid church or alternative religion.The Mormons cannot have it both ways, one or the other had to lie.No one can claim that the KJV was mistranslated for all ancient mss. support God's side and none support Smith and there are no ancient alternative mss. even coming close to Smith's ideas

So the Mormons face a difficult problem, they are either serving a false god, one who will lie to them, or their founder lied to them and they have no god to serve.

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"My whine"??--nice way to start.

Mormons do not have a problem at all with this....there are two possible explanations:

...as Joseph Smith saw God and died. Clearly, the world will not let a witness of God live.

or...the man in his natural state cannot see God and must be transfigured to do so.

I also disagree with your premise based on these scriptures:


Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

"My whine"??--nice way to start.

Mormons do not have a problem at all with this....there are two possible explanations:

...as Joseph Smith saw God and died. Clearly, the world will not let a witness of God live.

or...the man in his natural state cannot see God and must be transfigured to do so.

I also disagree with your premise based on these scriptures:


Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

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again being transfigured was not and is not how one is allowed to see God. Notice in the p***age that God does not transfigure Moses or say he has to do that.

As for "as Joseph Smith saw God and died. Clearly, the world will not let a witness of God live." We know that Joseph Smith lived so that comment makes no sense as does the latter half of that statement.

You limit the use of the term 'face to face' to a very restricted literal definition which is not how it is used in those p***ages. Smith was very clear in his declaration that he saw and talked to God the father in a very restricted literal definition of the term face to face but he forgot what the Bible said so again the Mormons have a dilemma.

Mormons should have a problem with it as their faith and their god are now more than suspect but wrong.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

again being transfigured was not and is not how one is allowed to see God. Notice in the p***age that God does not transfigure Moses or say he has to do that.

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What is your evidence one is not "transfigured" whenever one comes in contact with glorified God?

Even Jesus was transfigured:

Matthew 17:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

The following, originally posted at https://theologyarchaeology.wordpres...ormon-dilemma/ (My website),

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For me--that's a very shallow article--and certainly, not a very scholarly one. It also has no author who signed it--which, is usually a sure sign it might be suspect, IMO.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

The following, originally posted at https://theologyarchaeology.wordpres...ormon-dilemma/ (My website), is partially in response to Big Julie's whine

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Have you read the rules--we are not to start threads targeting specific board members.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Have you read the rules--we are not to start threads targeting specific board members.

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a good point to raise from time to time,


See - http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...k-over-on-CARM
post #6

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

again being transfigured was not and is not how one is allowed to see God. Notice in the p***age that God does not transfigure Moses or say he has to do that.

As for "as Joseph Smith saw God and died. Clearly, the world will not let a witness of God live." We know that Joseph Smith lived so that comment makes no sense as does the latter half of that statement.

You limit the use of the term 'face to face' to a very restricted literal definition which is not how it is used in those p***ages. Smith was very clear in his declaration that he saw and talked to God the father in a very restricted literal definition of the term face to face but he forgot what the Bible said so again the Mormons have a dilemma.

Mormons should have a problem with it as their faith and their god are now more than suspect but wrong.

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Being transfigured is how one sees God. Dberrie gave a very good scripture that gives this insight.

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Even Jesus was transfigured:

Matthew 17:1-2--
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

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Christ was transfigured when he spoke to God the Father. Or do you ***ume he did not see him?

Christ did not die when he spoke to His Father, but he was killed shortly thereafter.

And here is Stephen's experience.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Have you read the rules--we are not to start threads targeting specific board members.

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there was no targeting, i was referencing where my idea came from. big difference maybe you should learn the english language and how it is used correctly before accusing someone of a violation

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Being transfigured is how one sees God. Dberrie gave a very good scripture that gives this insight.

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uhm...no. Since i was talking about Moses who lived long before Christ and the act of transfiguration. Notice that the disciples were not transfigured yet they saw Moses and Elijah as well. God was not there it seems if you read the p***age correctly until after the transfiguration and he only was evident by a voice, no one saw God.

Jesus was never transfigured when he prayed and talked to his father, please read the Gospels again and note all the times Jesus prayed and was not transfigured. Jesus death had nothing to do with seeing God. Again, speaking to God was not going to bring death. if it would then no one could pray.

If you read the p***age again, Stephen only saw 'the glory of God not God himself. There is a difference between the two.

***your use of scripture answers your complaint about how Christians always tell Mormons that they do not understand the Bible. You do not know the Bible nor understand it, let alone use it correctly.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

there was no targeting, i was referencing where my idea came from. big difference maybe you should learn the english language and how it is used correctly before accusing someone of a violation

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you are correct,
I see no rules being broken by anyone on the forum at this time.
Nor have I even received any reports of any violations.

carry on......

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

uhm...no. Since i was talking about Moses who lived long before Christ and the act of transfiguration.

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You mean long before Christ had a body, correct? Or do you not believe that Christ existed prior to his birth, death, and resurrection?

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Notice that the disciples were not transfigured yet they saw Moses and Elijah as well. God was not there it seems if you read the p***age correctly until after the transfiguration and he only was evident by a voice, no one saw God.

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What? So you don't think Christ saw God? And only heard a voice as well?

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Jesus was never transfigured when he prayed and talked to his father, please read the Gospels again and note all the times Jesus prayed and was not transfigured.

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Yes, praying does not necessitate transfiguration.

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Jesus death had nothing to do with seeing God. Again, speaking to God was not going to bring death. if it would then no one could pray.

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What? You don't think that Christ learned things in that discussion with God that ended with the Jews crucifying him? The way I read it, once he had that discussion, he begins to share with his disciples that he will be dead shortly.

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If you read the p***age again, Stephen only saw 'the glory of God not God himself. There is a difference between the two.

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No, glory means to see something in its truth and fullness, brightly and purely.

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***your use of scripture answers your complaint about how Christians always tell Mormons that they do not understand the Bible. You do not know the Bible nor understand it, let alone use it correctly.

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Or you don't.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

there was no targeting, i was referencing where my idea came from. big difference maybe you should learn the english language and how it is used correctly before accusing someone of a violation

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Ummm, what about when you said this in your starting sentence:

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"response to Big Julie's whine "

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You didn't just reference where the idea came from, you put in an insult to go with it...big difference.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you are correct,
I see no rules being broken by anyone on the forum at this time.
Nor have I even received any reports of any violations.

carry on......

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You think starting a post with this type of insult "response to Big Julie's whine" isn't targeting?

And do you recognize that he did not quote my post, but put his own spin on it and how he interpreted it?

Wow.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

You think starting a post with this type of insult "response to Big Julie's whine" isn't targeting?

And do you recognize that he did not quote my post, but put his own spin on it and how he interpreted it?

Wow.

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" Do not start threads aimed at a specific board member."
(see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...-are-the-rules )



We shall not ***le a topic aimed at a member of the message forum.
This rule helps keep the topics from being too personally aimed at individual members.


How this works out in real life is like this -...the topic "Alan cant answer this question" is not allowed as it is aimed at one person by name and thus too personal .

You could ***le it rather like this "Christians cant answer this question" as that is not aimed at one single person by name, rather it address a whole religion.



Now you can aim your posts at anyone you want.
You can start a post with the words, "Alan cant answer this question..." or "Alan is a hypocrite ",,,or "Alan is wrong"..etc, and go on and on and on about things you believe the person Alan cant do right.

Thats fine.

I got no problem with that type of stuff.

But you just cant ***le a topic aimed at Alan by name.

This was at one time a common issue on this forum.
if you check many of the older topics you can see many that have ***les that are aimed at indivuial members of the board.
They always end badly and the ***le topics themselves become means to "get even" with others...


The rule we have against that stuff now should make this a better forum for all, as it gives everyone the feeling that they dont have to post a comment if they dont want to..





Now once again, as always if you believe anyone has posted a comment you believe is against the rules, then REPORT that bad post

,,,there is a thing you can click on and report the post.
Every comment on the forum has a thing on it that you can click on to report if if you have a problem with it.

Please tell me the location of the bad post, and list for me the rule you believe it has broken.

There is also a space provided there where you can make your case and try to prove your point.

But as far as I can see right now, I dont see any posts that break the rules as I understand the rules.





The problem is that not many people take the time to report a bad post, they just try to settle the matter themselves and that leads to a lot of back-and-forth bickering people as to whom is the most offended by the other guy's post.

When I first became the Super Mod here I got a lot of advice as to the people that i should ban right off the bat.
But when I asked for the rule the other person broke?....I never get an answer back.
Many people might not like some of the things they read, some people might be very offended by what other people are posting, but when asked for a rule that is broken>........?...

They cant find one.
Or they tend to want to have it that just disagreeing with them strongly is the same as making a personal attack.
Or, sometimes they say that all the other on-line Christian forums do it that way...

So in other words,,,they may not like what some people say, but when pressed that cant list a rule that has been broken.

So they just whine...

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

u

Jesus was never transfigured when he prayed and talked to his father, please read the Gospels again and note all the times Jesus prayed and was not transfigured..

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Luke 9:28-14:25

he prayed and during the prayer he changed in appearance...


i dont believe the text records Jesus "speaking" to the father at this point,,,But there clearly are 'prayers"....so it could be rightly suggested that there was 'speaking" going on..

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Luke 9:28-14:25

he prayed and during the prayer he changed in appearance...


i dont believe the text records Jesus "speaking" to the father at this point,,,But there clearly are 'prayers"....so it could be rightly suggested that there was 'speaking" going on..

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Really? Well, then--who exactly said this " While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. "---do you think Christ was speaking to himself and then suddenly his apostles heard who exactly say this?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Really? Well, then--who exactly said this " While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. "

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the answer is that the most likely answer is that the Father said this....

But there is nothing about the son speaking to the father except for the suggestion that the son was in prayer, and this might be correctly interpreted as speaking to the father,,,but we dont have any clear wording to suggest that Jesus spoke at all to the father, but is said to be talking with Moses and Elijah .

So we can't say that Jesus spoke to the father....

we can say that the Father spoke to the other men who there and NOT to the son directly at all....

[QUOTE=BigJulie;172740]

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You mean long before Christ had a body, correct? Or do you not believe that Christ existed prior to his birth, death, and resurrection?

What? So you don't think Christ saw God? And only heard a voice as well?

Yes, praying does not necessitate transfiguration.

What? You don't think that Christ learned things in that discussion with God that ended with the Jews crucifying him? The way I read it, once he had that discussion, he begins to share with his disciples that he will be dead shortly.

No, glory means to see something in its truth and fullness, brightly and purely.

Or you don't.

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Obviously I was referring to his time on earth.
We do not know w Christ 'saw' as the text doesn't tell us. Do not read into a text what is not there. Your connection to transfiguration has not substance nor evidence.

You do not understand the text at all.

You do not understand the word 'glory' an dhow it is used in that p***age.

If God only appeared with a voice do you think Christ saw him physically/spiritually? we do not know what C

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Ummm, what about when you said this in your starting sentence:

You didn't just reference where the idea came from, you put in an insult to go with it...big difference.

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no insult, it was a whine. read your post again and see how you come across.

So far the resident Mormons have side stepped the issue again as they refuse to deal with the real life dilemma of their founder's claims and God's actual words. Transfiguration does not help one see God nor is it a requirement to see him. The Mormons have not placed one scripture on here stating it is nor have they placed any quotes from their own religious writings stating that is the case.

So let's move on and have the RMs actually deal with the dilemma.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

no insult, it was a whine. read your post again and see how you come across.

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What post, as you did not include it in this thread? To you expect the reader to go back and read every post I wrote in order to find "my whine"?

If you were responding to my post and noting it was whining, that would seem legit...however, you just made a blanket statement without posting it. Hence, it was an insult.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

So far the resident Mormons have side stepped the issue again as they refuse to deal with the real life dilemma of their founder's claims and God's actual words. Transfiguration does not help one see God nor is it a requirement to see him. The Mormons have not placed one scripture on here stating it is nor have they placed any quotes from their own religious writings stating that is the case.

So let's move on and have the RMs actually deal with the dilemma.

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So, to you Christ in his prayer was not speaking to God and did not see God when he was transfigured. He was transfigured, why then? As we have other examples of Christ praying--why do you think he was transfigured this time? And why do you think the disciples heard God speak on this occasion? Do you think he was not there?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, to you Christ in his prayer was not speaking to God

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The text does not say anything about it...the only time it says Jesus spoke is perhaps to Moses and Elijah and then later to him men... we do know clearly the voice out of the cloud only speaks to the other men

The text does not say Jesus saw anything that the others did not also see

The text does not say why Jesus was changed

The text does not say why the voice spoke

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, to you Christ in his prayer was not speaking to God and did not see God when he was transfigured. He was transfigured, why then? As we have other examples of Christ praying--why do you think he was transfigured this time? And why do you think the disciples heard God speak on this occasion? Do you think he was not there?

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Not what I said at all. We do not know why he was transfigured and where in the text do you see it say he saw God? You like twisting people's words don't you. Seeing God at the transfiguration is not the topic of this thread.

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So, to you Christ in his prayer was not speaking to God

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UHM... in all of his recorded prayers, whom do you think Christ was speaking to? Not one of them has him being transfigured to speak to God. If that were a requirement, we all would have to be transfigured to be able to pray.

We have beaten this transfiguration error on the part of the Mormons to death yet they still are faced with a dilemma--how could smith see God the father when God told Moses NO ONE could see him and live.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

UHM... in all of his recorded prayers, whom do you think Christ was speaking to? Not one of them has him being transfigured to speak to God. If that were a requirement, we all would have to be transfigured to be able to pray.

We have beaten this transfiguration error on the part of the Mormons to death yet they still are faced with a dilemma--how could smith see God the father when God told Moses NO ONE could see him and live.

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Tah dah--you are starting to get it. Christ prayed ALL oif the time and was never required to be transfigured to speak to God--so why be transfigured now? Answer is obvious: To not just speak to him, but to SEE him.

Or, you are welcome to explain why you think he was transfigured this time. (As clearly he was praying, clearly God was there, and clearly Christ was transfigured.)

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Tah dah--you are starting to get it. Christ prayed ALL oif the time and was never required to be transfigured to speak to God--so why be transfigured now? Answer is obvious: To not just speak to him, but to SEE him.

Or, you are welcome to explain why you think he was transfigured this time. (As clearly he was praying, clearly God was there, and clearly Christ was transfigured.)

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wrong again. this ta-da moment of yours is as insulting as you claim I am. i am not your student and you haven't taught me anything. you are missing the point as usual and keep deflecting the topic away from the point of the thread.

respond to what i have said--mormons have a dilemma and they refuse to deal with it. if smith is correct then there is no god, if God is correct then smith is a liar.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

wrong again. this ta-da moment of yours is as insulting as you claim I am. i am not your student and you haven't taught me anything. you are missing the point as usual and keep deflecting the topic away from the point of the thread.

respond to what i have said--mormons have a dilemma and they refuse to deal with it. if smith is correct then there is no god, if God is correct then smith is a liar.

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The ta-dah was hoping you realized that we don't have a dilemma. You don't see it, but that is okay....you don't have to. But I don't have to see the scriptures which are clearly evident to me, but not to you, the way you do.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Not what I said at all. We do not know why he was transfigured and where in the text do you see it say he saw God? You like twisting people's words don't you. Seeing God at the transfiguration is not the topic of this thread.

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Okay, this is what we DO know...Christ went to the mount, he was transfigured, he spoke to Moses and Elijah, the apostles heard God say "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

As you noted, clearly Christ has prayed and spoken to God without being transfigured--but this time it was different. This time God spoke clearly to the apostles. This time Christ was transfigured. To me, the answer is obvious, I thought it was to you too, but you do not see it that way. Christ was speaking to ancient prophets and God face to face.

And "seeing God" is the topic of this thread. You believe this is a dilemma for Mormons. It is not. Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God right before his death. Jesus Christ saw God (but even he had to be transfigured to do so.)

And if you look back into the Old Testament, you will see that God's "face" has been removed by translators. Look at the Hebrew version of Exodus 20:3

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

The ta-dah was hoping you realized that we don't have a dilemma. You don't see it, but that is okay....you don't have to. But I don't have to see the scriptures which are clearly evident to me, but not to you, the way you do.

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you have a dilemma even if you hide your head in the sand and pretend that it is not there.