Should the members of the cult of Calvinism repent before calling Mormons a cult?

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

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I need repentin even if I aint a member of what ever. So I now repent. Woo, glad that's over with.
If a person believes as Calvin or Bobby Jones, it make not difference as to their Salvation if they are a New Testament born againder in the blood of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible.
However believe in the myth of Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind is something all together a horse of a different color.

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

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Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

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Originally Posted by MacG

Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

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American Baptists can be Calvinistic. Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

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James is an Arminian so I guess your 20 years has now come to a halt.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

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Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

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Originally Posted by MacG

Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

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Calvinist are in every Church in ever increasing numbers.

Do you believe men are total depraved?
Do you believe God decided before man was created who he would save and who he would ****?
Do you believe in irresitable grace?

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Calvinist are in every Church in ever increasing numbers.

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You now have two who are not Calvinist just in the last hour. It seems like your 20 year run has come to a crashing halt.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

James is an Arminian so I guess your 20 years has now come to a halt.

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Never considered James an anti-Mormon, just someone obsessed with certain sins of JS, that he was doing at the time...a lot. I believe he has repented now, so I am glad. I would never think Jim who lives in Sandy to stand outside conference with a sign yelling at people. He once offered my help when I was out of work. Sorry Billy, that jab did not work out as you had hoped.

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Never considered James an anti-Mormon, just someone obsessed with certain sins of JS, that he was doing at the time...a lot. I believe he has repented now, so I am glad.

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

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You said that in your 20 years of debate you have never meet someone who "not not a member of the cult of Calvinism". You have been given two Christians in just the last hour who are not Calvinists. So much for your "20 year" streak. My guess is that what you have said in not true.

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell.

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Calvinism teaches that ANYONE who places their faith in Christ will be saved. Nobody is forcing anyone to reject Christ. That is something that the individual chooses to do.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

American Baptists can be Calvinistic.

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You are right they can be:

"Calvinism tended to characterize Baptist theology until the late 18th century, when enthusiasm developed for evangelism and overseas missionary work. By and large modern Baptists are motivated by an Arminian theology that stresses free will, and have emphasized evangelism and discipleship."

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Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

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Before I step in that pile, please define it for as you understand it.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

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I do--and so does the Biblical record:


1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

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Originally Posted by MacG

Before I step in that pile, please define it for as you understand it.

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1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

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I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

James is an Arminian ....

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I disagree. Jim has stated that Arminians are Calvinists, which should be a red flag that he is confused. Anyway, Jim subscribes to the fundamentals of TULIP if I remember correctly.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I do--and so does the Biblical record:

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If Jesus PAID for every sin for every person then what would be the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I disagree. Jim has stated that Arminians are Calvinists, which should be a red flag that he is confused. Anyway, Jim subscribes to the fundamentals of TULIP if I remember correctly.

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I guess we will have to let Jim tell us where he stands.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

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Originally Posted by MacG

I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

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Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----I do--and so does the Biblical record:

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

If Jesus PAID for every sin for every person then what would be the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

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They don't obey the conditions set by the Redeemer:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9---King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Billyray--the Redeemer always has the right to set the conditions.

The faith alone deny any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in order to receive of His grace unto life eternal--but the Bible has obedience to Jesus Christ as the condition upon which God extends His grace unto life:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


That's the gospel one will find in the Bible and the LDS church--but absent in the faith alone theology.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

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Not what I was expecting. So thanks for spelling out how you don't view limited atonement. So now I need a little more input.

Now what benefit is this unlimited atonement for those goats who will be gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness after being invited to the wedding, refusing to go but then attempt to go in without wedding clothes and are cast out of the wedding reception? Or how does it benefit the 5 virgins without oil? Or or those on the wide path to destruction? Those who cause a little one to stumble?

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Originally Posted by MacG View Post---I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

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Originally Posted by MacG

Not what I was expecting. So thanks for spelling out how you don't view limited atonement. So now I need a little more input.

Now what benefit is this unlimited atonement for those goats who will be gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness after being invited to the wedding, refusing to go but then attempt to go in without wedding clothes and are cast out of the wedding reception? Or how does it benefit the 5 virgins without oil? Or or those on the wide path to destruction? Those who cause a little one to stumble?

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It provides all with the same thing--an absolvement of the condemnation brought upon man through the Fall--and an opportunity for all to inherit eternal life.

If God did not die for all--then the opportunity for eternal life did not exist for all.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It provides all with the same thing--an absolvement of the condemnation brought upon man through the Fall--and an opportunity for all to inherit eternal life.

If God did not die for all--then the opportunity for eternal life did not exist for all.

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If I am not mistaken (and why I asked you for your definition of limited atonement which may still help) the Calvinist would say that the Atonement is for all but like the invited wedding guests, nobody RSVP'd for it.

Is this part accurate?

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Originally Posted by MacG

If I am not mistaken (and why I asked you for your definition of limited atonement which may still help) the Calvinist would say that the Atonement is for all but like the invited wedding guests, nobody RSVP'd for it.

Is this part accurate?

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Limited Atonement means just that--limited. IOW--God did not die for all men--regardless who is invited to the wedding. The Limited Atonement is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Limited Atonement means just that--limited. IOW--God did not die for all men--regardless who is invited to the wedding. The Limited Atonement is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

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How does this differ with what you are trying to say:

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3. THE ATONEMENT IS LIMITED IN PURPOSE AND APPLICATION
While the value of the atonement was sufficient to save all mankind, it was efficient to save only the elect. It is indifferently well adapted to the salvation of one man to that of another, thus making the salvation of every man objectively possible; yet because of subjective difficulties, arising on account of the sinners own inability either to see or appreciate the things of God, only those are saved who are regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The reason why God does not apply this grace to all men has not been fully revealed.

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