No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You did not answer the question.

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---POST #294, Billy. My but you can be annoying. Thank goodness your behavior reflects on the Scold industry and not on those who are faithful LDS.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff's list of works

1. Sins
2. Charity or helping others
3. Works of the Law

What works are required for salvation? And when Paul says NOT of Works which ones is he referring to? Can you use the numbers that I have listed above which was taken from your previous post.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---The works of categories 1 and 3 would be included in the list of works that do NOT contribute toward one's salvation, obviously.

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OK so you are saying that you don't have to keep 1 or 3 for salvation?

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[Mesenja;58399]Most of it as I said completely off topic and therefore irrelevant. No Jim that was not all of what you were saying. You pointed out to me "that the Christians here have ever said that God is one Person." When I corrected you and pointed out that what I actually posted was that the "Nicene Creed describes Jesus as being ****oúsios with God the Father" in other words meaning that "they are of the "same substance" or "one in essence" and are therefore both "equally God" you tried to back peddle and say this was your position all along.

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If I am that off topic report me.. I think it's more like you don't like the direction of the discussion on the topic.. I am not back peddling at all I agree with the Creed 100%.. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God.. They are of one and the same essence.. If you believe that saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are seperate persons you have not been seeing the countless posts I have made that inform mormons that they are.. God is three divine Persons in the one Being of God.. There is NOT one who is the Head God, and the other His servants.. Each is fully God.. I don't see any back peddling in that.. That has been my statement on the nature of God the full time I have been a Christian.. If you think that is in error ask any Christian on here if that isn't orthodox theology..

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As you can see what you posted before is not your position now. Yes you believe in the Nicene Creed after i took the time to explain it to you. But you have totally misrepresented my position and as your past history shows will refuse to admit it. Surprise me Jim and admit your mistake. Oh wait that would be apologizing to a Latter-day Saint (Mormon) and admitting that you were wrong and they are right. My mistake Jim. How silly of me to even entertain this possibility.

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Just because you think you were so wise as to explain my faith to me I am not seeing it.. I have held the Creeds (All of them ) to be the truth, condensed statements about who God is, who man is, and how salvation come to man.. I have explained the reason for the creed's existence many times..

If you can show to the world here how I have back peddled but actually show it not just say so then you would have cause to point out error in me.. I call on you to do so.. BUT remember not just say so but show it! IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

I have held the Creeds (All of them ) to be the truth, condensed statements about who God is, who man is, and how salvation come to man.. I have explained the reason for the creed's existence many times..

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---Jim, is the Athanasian Creed 100% accurate and true?

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If you can show to the world here how I have back peddled but actually show it not just say so then you would have cause to point out error in me.. I call on you to do so..

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---It may come to that soon, depending on your answer to the above question.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

The ordinance of baptism is part of the doctrine that Paul himself preached. [Hebrews 6:2] Paul was immersed in order to have his sins “washed away” [Acts 22:16] and taught that in order to have "redemption through his blood,the forgiveness of sins,in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding" we are to be baptized "into Christ”. [Ephesians 1:3;Romans 6:3-4;Galatians 3:27] Jesus spoke of being "born of water" and Paul clarifies exactly which birth is being referred to here by saying this is "the water of rebirth" [John 3:3-5,NRSV;***us 3:5,NRSV]

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Mormons never tire of taking the scripture out of context to try to make their points.. That is what you did here.. But you were so bad at the context you didn't even finish the meaning found in the same verse..
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
So what did the Holy Spirit all that phrase? Because that is how the sins are washed away.. Mere water won't do the *** baptism is a symbol of the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.. The Blood Jesus shed on the cross is the only cleansing agent with the power to cleanse us of sin..

There is no water in rebirth.. and since Jesus told us there are two births one a natural the other a spiritual, being born of water and spirit speaks to those two births.. The water is the natural, the spiritual is that which Jesus promised to those that receive Him..

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The first context of John 3 does NOT speak of baptism while the next context in the same chapter isn't shy about the use of the word at all.. Sorry but baptism doesn't belong in the context of a p***age about birth..
Look at what he full sentance that is includes ***us 3:5 is included:
***us 3:4-7
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You can't see that the p***age is telling us that this is 100% God's work? His kindness, His love, His mercy shown to us by washing, regenerating, and renewing us in the Holy Ghost.. All that given to us because of Jesus.. This all done by His grace making us heir of the hope of eternal life.. You see washing and think baptism.. That is sad that you throw away the meaning of scripture for what men teach to you.. IHS jim

Interesting: The same people who say there is nothing special about the water that baptizes a person, somehow say there is real magical power in the Eucharist's wafer and wine--to the extent that Jesus' actual blood and flesh materialize over and over, for each Eucharist ritual.

Apparently, "Mere water won't do the ***" but somehow, mere crackers and wine WILL do the ***.

Like I said: Interesting.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

Interesting:The same people who say there is nothing special about the water that baptizes a person,somehow say there is real magical power in the Eucharist's wafer and wine--to the extent that Jesus' actual blood and flesh materialize over and over,for each Eucharist ritual.

Apparently,"Mere water won't do the ***" but somehow,mere crackers and wine WILL do the ***.

Like I said:Interesting.

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Sorry friend but I am going to have to call you on this one. This post was totally uncalled for.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Sorry friend but I am going to have to call you on this one. This post was totally uncalled for.

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---I am willing to listen to reasons why their mockery of the ordinance of baptism isn't inconsistent with their belief in Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation. If someone can show me that my pointing out the double standard was totally uncalled for, I am willing to apologize.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

Interesting: The same people who say there is nothing special about the water that baptizes a person, somehow say there is real magical power in the Eucharist's wafer and wine--to the extent that Jesus' actual blood and flesh materialize over and over, for each Eucharist ritual.

Apparently, "Mere water won't do the ***" but somehow, mere crackers and wine WILL do the ***.

Like I said: Interesting.

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Like baptism, the wine and bread of the Lord's supper are symbolic.. While baptism identifies the believer with the death and Restoration of the Lord, the Lord's supper identifies us with His sacrifice.. If there is anything ANYTHING we can do to bring salvation to ourselves then as the scripture says Christ is dead in vain.. Any one that is putting such power into the elements of the Lord's supper is doing so in error.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I am willing to listen to reasons why their mockery of the ordinance of baptism isn't inconsistent with their belief in Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation. If someone can show me that my pointing out the double standard was totally uncalled for, I am willing to apologize.

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These are NOT Christian doctrine.. No Christian here has supported them.. You take some doctrines of the Catholic church and try to force it on Christians in general.. It isn't part of the Scripture.. When Jesus said take eat this is my body it was clear the statement was symbolic because He stood there before then in His body that He had NOT broken pieces off of.. Some intelligence is ***umed of the people reading about the ins***ution of the Lord's supper.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

These are NOT Christian doctrine.. No Christian here has supported them.. You take some doctrines of the Catholic church and try to force it on Christians in general.. It isn't part of the Scripture.. When Jesus said take eat this is my body it was clear the statement was symbolic because He stood there before then in His body that He had NOT broken pieces off of.. Some intelligence is ***umed of the people reading about the ins***ution of the Lord's supper.. IHS jim

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---Thanks, Jim, for your opinion. I am glad to learn that when you quit the LDS, you didn't stop believing that the sacrament of the Lord's Supper is only symbolic. (Only a minority of Christendom believes as you and the LDS do, I think)

But to say that any church that teaches that it's NOT just symbolic is teaching un-Christian doctrine, might make a lot of Christians angry--not just the Catholics, but the Orthodox too, as well as the Protestants who teach Consubstantiation.

To all those Christians, anyone who believes that it's just symbolic, is the one with a false belief. You might even be accused of having a cultic doctrine.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

That would have made it crystal clear however he didn't do so as that would have contradicted his fellow apostle James who said "Even so faith,if it hath not works,is dead, being alone. "

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Coulda, shoulda...that's all you Mos have. SPECULATION.

It's CLEAR that it IS sola gratia, sola fide because Paul repeatedly states...

NOT OF WORKS!!

Why are you Mos so obdurate??

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

That would have made it crystal clear however he didn't do so as that would have contradicted his fellow apostle James who said "Even so faith,if it hath not works,is dead, being alone. "

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So what....how does that back up what you are saying? James didn't say that Faith is a result of works.

Your are simply snatching a few words out of Scripture WITH NO REGARDS TO CONTEXT CONTEXT!!

Contrary to what you are implying, there is this:

Romans 10

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Galatians 3

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

James is not saying works are required for Faith (Our Faith is not our own, it the Faith of Jesus) James is saying that works are a result of THE MEASURE OF FAITH WE RECEIVE FROM JESUS.

Romans 12

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Andy

You alleged that my position was that the Christians in this forum believe that "God is one Person." That is not what I said. What I said was that "the "Nicene Creed describes Jesus as being ****oúsios with God the Father." In other words "they are of the "same substance" or "one in essence" and are therefore both "equally God." Here is what i said followed by what you said.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

In John 10:30 this same argument is also made that Jesus and the Father are one in essence.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Haven't you seen that the Christians here have never said that God is one Person. He is always been described as Being the three separate person of the Father,Son,and the Holy Spirit. Three persons one God and yes they are of the same essence. IHS Jim

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

I never said that God is one Person. I said that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. The Nicene Creed describes Jesus as being ****oúsios with God the Father. This means that they are of the "same substance" or "one in essence" and are equally God.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

That is what I am saying too. And my post compares a creed of Christianity to that of the creed of Mormonism. I have pointed out that the Nicene creed is Biblical but that the Mormon creed violates the Bible at every turn. IHS Jim

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---That is okay--you are learning this for the first time I guess. Maybe you gave up too quickly on your learning by quitting the church when you did, and now your only knowledge base comes from Dark-Ages-vintage philosophy, alive and well (alive, at least) in the teachings of Calvinistic Protestantism.

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You did not answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff's list of works

1. Sins
2. Charity or helping others
3. Works of the Law

What works are required for salvation? And when Paul says NOT of Works which ones is he referring to? Can you use the numbers that I have listed above which was taken from your previous post.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You did not answer the question.

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---Repeating a false accusation ad nauseam doesn't magically make it become a valid accusation, Willy.

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Originally Posted by Billyray
Jeff's list of works

1. Sins
2. Charity or helping others
3. Works of the Law

What works are required for salvation?

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---According to the New Testament? To those of us with the capacity to figure it out, the obvious answer is charity, since without it you are nothing, and since it's more important than your faith.

(It will be interesting to see how many more times you will embarr*** yourself by ***erting that I did not answer the question)

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And when Paul says NOT of Works which ones is he referring to? Can you use the numbers that I have listed above which was taken from your previous post.

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---Well, let's see:
Number One (the "works of evil" as the NT calls them) seem like the kinds of works that Paul would think DON'T result in salvation. Do you disagree?

And Number Three (the works of the Torah) were what Paul specifically says aren't good enough to result in salvation. So I'd agree with Paul there as well. I take you think he was wrong or lying?

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

[COLOR="Purple"]
Billyray stated,
Jeff's list of works
1. Sins
2. Charity or helping others
3. Works of the Law

What works are required for salvation?

Jeff replies.
---Well, let's see:
Number One (the "works of evil" as the NT calls them) seem like the kinds of works that Paul would think DON'T result in salvation. Do you disagree?

And Number Three (the works of the Torah) were what Paul specifically says aren't good enough to result in salvation. So I'd agree with Paul there as well. I take you think he was wrong or lying?

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So these are NOT required for salvation
1. Sins (control of sinful behavior)
3. Works of the Law (such as the 10 commandments)

And this IS required for salvation
2. Charity or helping others

Did I get your position correct?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So these are NOT required for salvation
1. Sins (control of sinful behavior)
3. Works of the Law (such as the 10 commandments)

And this IS required for salvation
2. Charity or helping others

Did I get your position correct?

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---It's the BIBLE's position, and I agree with it.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---It's the BIBLE's position, and I agree with it.

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Which is what exactly?

Was going to ask exactly the same question. Where does it say "charity" is required for salvation?

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Originally Posted by Libby

Was going to ask exactly the same question. Where does it say "charity" is required for salvation?

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-----If Paul had been saying that a person could get saved by mere belief, then he would have been saying that dead faith--faith devoid of charitible deeds (good works) for one's fellowman--could save a person. And that would have DIRECTLY contradicted what St. James taught in HIS epistle.

So obviously, Paul was NOT saying that a person could get saved by mere faith without charity--Paul was saying that faith that is ALIVE is what makes grace efficacious, and not the observance of the works of The Law

Paul says that we are saved by hope. (Romans 8:24) and that (1 Cor. 13):
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding br***, or a tinkling cymbal."

Are such people likely to get eternal life?

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Are people with ALL FAITH but NO CHARITY getting eternal life?

For now there are faith, hope, and love.
But of these three, the greatest is love (charity).

If a person only has faith and hope, but is lacking the greatest of the three
(charity), is that person likely to get eternal life?

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (1 Timothy 1:5)

Are you gonna get eternal life if you don't have charity?

1. There's NO such thing as "dead faith". It's NO "faith" AT ALL, jeff.
2. GRACE is unmerited favor, ergo, there's NOTHING to make it "efficacious".
3. You still think Grace is MERITED and or/EARNED.

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Originally Posted by Father_JD

1. There's NO such thing as "dead faith". It's NO "faith" AT ALL, jeff.

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--You'd better hope that's not true, since you're betting your salvation on your belief that faith without works is good enough to save you. :D

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2. GRACE is unmerited favor, ergo, there's NOTHING to make it "efficacious".

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--But you guys have admitted that there ARE requirements a person MUST meet in order to be saved:

1. Believe that Trinitarianism describes God inerrantly.
2. Have faith in Jesus.
3. Not be LDS. :eek:

If person fails to "measure up" on ANY of those, can he be saved? If the answer is no, then those are de facto requirements for salvation.

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3. You still think Grace is MERITED and or/EARNED.

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----What does the Bible say about people who claim they know God but the things they do show that they disobey Him? (***us 1:16)

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

--You'd better hope that's not true, since you're betting your salvation on your belief that faith without works is good enough to save you. :D

Here it is for the umpteenth time, jeff:

A SAVING Faith WILL be demonstrated by works. The works in and of themselves do NOT JUSTIFY one.


--But you guys have admitted that there ARE requirements a person MUST meet in order to be saved:

1. Believe that Trinitarianism describes God inerrantly.
2. Have faith in Jesus.
3. Not be LDS. :eek:

If person fails to "measure up" on ANY of those, can he be saved? If the answer is no, then those are de facto requirements for salvation.

The only "must" Biblically, is that one must have faith in Jesus, i.e. the BIBLICAL one and not the Mormon construct of JS.



----What does the Bible say about people who claim they know God but the things they do show that they disobey Him? (***us 1:16)


That's an excellent argument for SAVING FAITH. Lip service doesn't save anyone, jeff...it's gotta be a LIVING, REAL FAITH which is DEMONSTRATED by works. ;)

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And there you have it.

So do you subscribe to a belief-based soteriology? Or a grace-based one?