some Quotes To Consder

These are taken from the book The Mormonizing of America by Stephen Mansfield:

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God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel and he will make me to be a God to you in is stead, and the Elder to be the mouth for me, and if you do not like it, you can lump it--Joseph smith, History of the Church 6:319-20-- (pg. 249)

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What an arrogant at***ude and not one that is very Christian or even close to the fruits of the spirit. Who would want to be a member of any organization when the founder and leader has that at***ude?

#2.

in my doctrinal teachings I have taught many things not written in any book, ancient or modern, and yet not withstanding the many things I have told the people, I have never looked into the Bible, Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants, or any of our church works to see whether they agreed with them or not.-- Brigham Young, Deseret News June 6 1877-- (pg. 250)

Wow, Mormon leaders say what they want regardless of what their religious writings say. Of course there is more to that quote but we need to put the rest of those words under the scrutiny of the biblical p***age--he who speaks his own testimony that testimony is not true. (done from memory).

More quotes from the same book:

They do not like their own people

page 252-- We have at times sent men on missions to get rid of them but they have generally come back...We have tried to turn the filthy ones out of the flock but they will not always stay away-- Brigham Young Journal of Discourses 7:7:228-29

They do not know biblical history or geography

page 253-- According to the words of the Prophet Joseph, mankind in that age continued to emigrate eastwardly until they reached the country on or near the Atlantic coast; and that in or near Carolina, Noah built his remarkable ship, in which he, his family, and all kinds of animals lived a few days over one year without coming out of it-- Oliver B. Huntington, The Juvenile Instructor, Nov. 15, 1895

He must have been over 100 years of age or reincarnated

page 253-- Everyone of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington called upon me as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple of St. George, two consecutive nights and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them-- Wilford Woodruff, Conference Report, April 10, 1898

He also doesn't know his own history.

page 59-- Mormonism is not primarily about doctrine. It is about experience of a restored supernatural power, the all important matter of priesthood authority.

page 61-- They are also untrained theologically. The study of doctrine is surprisingly informal in the church.

page 62-- He (Smith) was interested in spiritual experience, not theories about the spiritual. He wanted revelations, not theologies; an open heaven not just open books

page 64-- There is no creed. There are few if any LDS theologians,. The clergy isn't theologically trained. The people are usually only taught was is faith promoting so there are huge gaps in what they know.

Mormonism is prime example of the verses in the Bible which talk about how men only want to hear what they want and those that say men will ignore sound doctrine

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

#2.

in my doctrinal teachings I have taught many things not written in any book, ancient or modern, and yet not withstanding the many things I have told the people, I have never looked into the Bible, Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants, or any of our church works to see whether they agreed with them or not.-- Brigham Young, Deseret News June 6 1877-- (pg. 250)

Wow, Mormon leaders say what they want regardless of what their religious writings say. Of course there is more to that quote but we need to put the rest of those words under the scrutiny of the biblical p***age--he who speaks his own testimony that testimony is not true. (done from memory).

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Hi Doc. I believe this to be the sort you referenced,

"If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.” (John 5:31)

Are we in a Mormon holiday now?

Would they attempt to draw for themselves the context of v31 if given a chance? Arrogance would be putting it lightly if not. Still, what else but pride to rise above godly tradition? Yet, even that understanding is misplaced isn’t it?

I suppose it goes back to our knowing the difference between building upon, and the partaking of co-built by.

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Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Mormonism is prime example of the verses in the Bible which talk about how men only want to hear what they want and those that say men will ignore sound doctrine

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Such as this doctrine?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Such as this doctrine?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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and......
If you keep reading, what you learn is the pointlessness of what the guy was "working" .

You see, at no point was the man told he was not keeping the laws listed...there is no hint that he had failed to keep the listed laws.
But the problem came when the guy was informed that it was all a moot point, that all the laws listed in the world if kept are still a moot point.

You dont earn a p***age to heaven via keeping the laws and rules and whatever...
If that were true, then our salvation would be by "works"...

see what Jesus was pointing out to the man who kept the law, is that there are two types of "Justification".
There is the "Justification by works" that the man was doing.
This is the type of justification where you do things that other people can see, and from this they can guess at the faith you might have.
This is because none of us can truly look inside the heart of another person and see whats going on there.
All we can do is look on the outside.
I can see you do things, and from watching your actions I can "guess" what you are like on the inside.

And on the other hand...

Jesus was also pointing out to the man that there is another type of "Justification.
This is called the "Justification by FAITH"
It's talking about putting your faith in Christ, to believe in him and HIS WORK....not your own.
To follow Jesus.

This is the thing that only God can see.
Only God can see into your heart.
Only he knows if what you are doing(the keeping of the Law) is a sign of your inner heart coming out, or is just FAKE....just stuff you do to be seen.....all for show.

And it is this 2nd type of Justification that is the most important to our salvation,

For we are saved not by works!,
not by our actions,
not by the things we do or do not do according to a list,

but rather we are saved via Grace THOUGH FAITH!!!!!!!!!

So many words, so little death mentioned, Doc.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostSuch as this doctrine?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and......If you keep reading, what you learn is the pointlessness of what the guy was "working" .

You see, at no point was the man told he was not keeping the laws listed...there is no hint that he had failed to keep the listed laws.

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But God never stated it was pointless to keep His commandments--quite to the contrary.

So--why do the faith alone deny the truthfulness of Matthew 19:16-19?

IOW--why do the faith alone deny keeping the commandments has anything to do with salvation?


Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IOW--why do the faith alone deny keeping the commandments has anything to do with salvation?



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I have never talked with a "faith alone" believer, so i would not know...

Thus,if keeping the law earned salvation, then we would have real proof that salvation was by works...

But the guy who had kept the law only finds out how pointless all that work had been when he is told he still lacks....even after a lifetime spent faithfully keeping the law he finds out that he is still going to come up short...

this then also fits with the verse that teaches us that there is only one true work that matters to God....and that work is to "believe" in the son...

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post IOW--why do the faith alone deny keeping the commandments has anything to do with salvation?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have never talked with a "faith alone" believer, so i would not know...

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That's strange--you haven't ever conversed with a Protestant?

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

Could you explain to us how you relate keeping the commandments with salvation?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

No...we are saved by grace...though faith alone and not by works....
I have talked with many christians who teach this bbible - backed teaching....but I have never ran into a christian who I would call a "faith alone " teacher here.....have you?


Mostly I just run into ignorant people that don't know what Christians are talking about....I tend to ignore their silly posts. ...

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post IOW--why do the faith alone deny keeping the commandments has anything to do with salvation?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have never talked with a "faith alone" believer, so i would not know...

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post That's strange--you haven't ever conversed with a Protestant?

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

Could you explain to us how you relate keeping the commandments with salvation?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No...

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Exactly--which is why I inquired as to why the faith alone deny the scriptures above.

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we are saved by grace...though faith alone

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There is only one mention of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text, in any translation you would depend on:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again, ignorant people with silly posts are not worth my time

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No...we are saved by grace...though faith alone

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is only one mention of the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text, in any translation you would depend on:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Again, ignorant people with silly posts are not worth my time

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What do you consider ignorant or silly about James2:24? That it violates faith alone theology is not a viable explanation.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's strange--you haven't ever conversed with a Protestant?

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

Could you explain to us how you relate keeping the commandments with salvation?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

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Why not allow your Mormon "scriptures" to tell you, rather than using the Bible as proof text when your leaders think it is corrupt, not reliable and essentially a work of Satan? That's kind of silly. For example:

"God gave many revelations to Hebrew Prophets, in the Hebrew language. Some of these revelations have been translated by human wisdom into many other languages, and called the Bible. The same revelations have been translated many times by different authors: but no two translations agree. They differ not only in words and style, but also in sentiment, according to the various opinions of the translators. These clashing translations are circulated among the people, as the words of God, when , in reality they are the words of translators; and words too, selected by their own human wisdom. ... Therefore, so far as the uninspired translators and the people are concerned, no part of the Bible can, with certainty, be known by them to be the word of God. ... The Hebrew and Greek m****cripts of the Bible from which translations have been made, are evidently very much corrupted, as appears from the fact, that scarcely any two copies are alike in any chapter or verse. ... This uncertainty, combined with the imperfections of uninspired translations, renders the Bibles of all languages, at the present day, emphatically the words of men, instead of the pure words of God." - Pratt, Spiritual Gifts, pages 70-71

Consequently, every time a Mormon uses the Bible as proof text, they are only quoting the words of men and not the Word of God.

So let's use your "scriptures," and please allow me the liberty to highlight some key words:

D&C 76 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him*he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ*


53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things*

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

How do you justify denouncing "faith alone" when your own "scriptures" indicate that faith is Jesus Christ is the only means of "salvation?" Perhaps you should stop listening to the "words of men."

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post That's strange--you haven't ever conversed with a Protestant?

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

Could you explain to us how you relate keeping the commandments with salvation?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

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Originally Posted by Berean

Why not allow your Mormon "scriptures" to tell you, rather than using the Bible as proof text when your leaders think it is corrupt, not reliable and essentially a work of Satan?

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Cite, please. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church.

And it is the very source which testifies against faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Could you give us anything in the Biblical text which is not compatible with core salvational doctrines of the LDS church?

Berean--the LDS believe the above scriptures. Can you collate faith alone theology with the above scriptures?